Please stop buying Serpa holsters

[Vlad G 345]

... or any holster with a button over the trigger guard for that matter.

 

Yes, there is going to be a page of people telling me how they've used Serpa for ever and never shot themselves and never had a problem and how some branch of the military swears by them and how some dude with a web channel thinks are awesome. It is also very likely most everyone will ignore me and thats fine too, but I want to sleep better at nite so I'm putting this out there so maybe someone will listen.

 

There are three distinct problems with the Serpa holsters. The primary problem is that to unlock them you need to put pressure with your finger tip on a button located roughly over the trigger guard. Lots of people are going to come tell me how this is not a problem, they've done it many times with no issues, and with proper training it is awesome and that I am hater that doesn't get it. It is a problem once you add any degree of stress or speed to the equation because human hands don't operate that way and your trigger finger is not independent of the rest of your hand under stress. The actual danger is that as you draw your gun on you trigger finger is applying pressure on the holster body and then will fall into the trigger guard, on the trigger and continue to apply pressure. I'm sure you have all seen those videos. I'm also sure the fan's of serpa's will come tell me now how they never that problem. Good for you, right up until you do.

 

The secondary problem are the serpa holster with "high wall" sides. On those you can actually catch the trigger and activate it as you holster a gun. Some were recalled because of it, some were not.

 

The final problem is that the button is sensitive to dirt, ice, snow rendering it inoperable or requiring even more force to activate aggravating the first problem. Also a ton of videos out there showing you this.

 

I'm not the only person out there who thinks they are a problem:

 

Larry Vickers: Serpas banned from training courses

source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showp...043371&postcount=112

 

Gunsite: Serpas not officially banned, but not recommended

source: Cory Trapp of Gunsite

http://www.snipershide.com/for...wflat&Number=2714778

 

The folks at FLETC put out an advisory that pretty much says Serpa's suck:

source: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=96534&highlight=Serpa

 

The list could keep on going. I could also talk about how lots of IDPA clubs have banned Serpa holsters because of range injuries and how I'm pretty sure we've had 2 ND's around here in the last couple of months because of them. I recommend you do your own research as well on all the problems reported with it.

 

The short version is that it is a cheap holster that mostly works if you aren't doing anything to challenging and that can work against you if you are doing some stressful, kinda the exact opposite of what you want. I know that my post will likely not stop anyone from buying one, and I was tempted to ban them from the USPSA matches I run but I really can't do that either. So what I can do ask you stop buying them and maybe sleep better at night.

 

There are many other holster designs out there that work better and don't cost more, just because you can find Serpa's everywhere and the packaging looks exciting it doesn't mean you should buy them.

[blksheep 466]

Very well written.

[blksheep 466]

However you say that you have had 2 ND occur becuase of the holster. Is it becuase of the holster or lack of being familiar with the platform you are using?

[Vlad G 345]

However you say that you have had 2 ND occur becuase of the holster. Is it becuase of the holster or lack of being familiar with the platform you are using?

 

You say that like those are two different unrelated facts. The problems with this holster are only made much worse by the fact that they bought in mass by people who don't know much about holsters or the kinematics of drawing a gun under stress. The holster shouldn't make things worse. I didn't have any NDs, "we" the shooters in NJ participating in matches around here had two NDs.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

As a SERPA user I have to disagree. My finger does not index on the trigger guard - it indexes on the frame. I have also tested my numerous SERPA holsters for the trigger activation - none even come close. I've also "mall-ninja tested" my holsters in the dirt and mud (while playing airsoft) and have not had any issues with the release button becoming stuck or non-functional.

[blksheep 466]

You say that like those are two different unrelated facts. The problems with this holster are only made much worse by the fact that they bought in mass by people who don't know much about holsters or the kinematics of drawing a gun under stress. The holster shouldn't make things worse. I didn't have any NDs, "we" the shooters in NJ participating in matches around here had two NDs.

 

You are the same people who said that the Glock gun is more prone to ND because of the "LIGHT" trigger pull. I have a hard time blaming a gun or holster for people that dont know how to work equipment. You mine as well say that guns and holsters are to blame for people being unsafe.

[blksheep 466]

You say that like those are two different unrelated facts. The problems with this holster are only made much worse by the fact that they bought in mass by people who don't know much about holsters or the kinematics of drawing a gun under stress. The holster shouldn't make things worse. I didn't have any NDs, "we" the shooters in NJ participating in matches around here had two NDs.

 

I didnt mean you personally Vlad with the ND. I was referring to your post. By no means did I mean you. I apologize.

[Maksim 1,504]

However you say that you have had 2 ND occur becuase of the holster. Is it becuase of the holster or lack of being familiar with the platform you are using?

 

I am going to add my 2 cents in here, considering I own 3 Serpa's for the production guns.

 

Are there potential issues with some models? Absolutely. In fact, on the Glock holsters, the finger is much closer to being near the trigger guard.

 

I have direct experience with 1911, Sig and M&P Serpas, practice drawing from the holsters, and in all cases, (most of my experience with the 1911 which I have used in gun games for over a year) the finger is placed on the frame, not on the trigger guard.

 

Would I recommend a newbie get a Glock Serpa holster? No. Why?

 

Does the Serpa holster pull the trigger on your gun? No, it does not, but it does not make it more difficult to have an ND on the draw. On the Glock designed serpas you finger is really really close.

 

On the 1911, I would not think twice about using it, and will take pictures of exactly where the finger ends up on the frame. I think a big misconception people have about the serpas is that they were designed to have your finger on the trigger guard, which is not true. Designed to end up with finger on the frame.

 

The two ND's that you speak of... If we are thinking of the one in PA, I cannot speak to that as I do not know all facts, however the one we have had locally, I would highly doubt it is the holster, and rather the shooter. That shooter was DQ'ed twice or three times last year, for various stupid shit, including once setting off a round into the backstop on the reload (finger in trigger guard), I don't recall if I was the RO at the time running him or was merely on his squad. So my direct experience it is the shooter not the holster.

 

I think it is quite tough to find someone to man up and say... "hey, I had my finger in the trigger guard/on the trigger" and instead lets play the blame the holster game, because it is not my fault.

 

Unsafe people will always be unsafe, it does not matter if they have a level 10 holster or a simple blade tech.

 

To sum this up, while in Glock cases the Serpa's are not pulling the trigger, albeit they don't help, in all other guns I have used them, specifically the 1911 holsters, not once in the hundreds of times I have drawn from it, was my finger anywhere close to being in or near the trigger guard. In all cases, was on the slide/frame.

[Vlad G 345]

You are the same people who said that the Glock gun is more prone to ND because of the "LIGHT" trigger pull.

 

I'm the who now?

[blksheep 466]

I'm the who now?

 

I am making the point that you cant blame a holster or gun for people being unsafe. Thats it.

[RecessedFilter 222]

I don't own one but I can see how all these problems have arisen. And once I said I'm not a fan, all Serpa fans jumped down my throat!

[Vlad G 345]

To sum this up, while in Glock cases the Serpa's are not pulling the trigger, albeit they don't help, in all other guns I have used them, specifically the 1911 holsters, not once in the hundreds of times I have drawn from it, was my finger anywhere close to being in or near the trigger guard. In all cases, was on the slide/frame.

 

I don't really think the holster pulls the trigger Maks, I just think it makes it much more likely that the shooter will screw up vs a holster that does not require finger pressure in that area. Also not everyone's finger are shaped the same, have the length or curvature, or grabs a gun the same way etc. Where your finger ends up is a far more variable then you give it credit for, even with the same gun and holster.

[blksheep 466]

I think if they work for you great, if not dont buy them.

[Vlad G 345]

I am making the point that you cant blame a holster or gun for people being unsafe. Thats it.

 

I don't blame inanimate objects. However in my opinion it is a poor design that only makes problems worse for no benefit that couldn't have been achieved in other ways.

[blksheep 466]

I have all kinds of different holsters form Serpas to Safariland 6004's, 6280's, shoulder, ankle etc. I train with each one and each has its own use.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Meh, I like em. I use them with my Glocks, and I practice so that my finger indexes up high away from the trigger.

[Maksim 1,504]

I don't really think the holster pulls the trigger Maks, I just think it makes it much more likely that the shooter will screw up vs a holster that does not require finger pressure in that area. Also not everyone's finger are shaped the same, have the length or curvature, or grabs a gun the same way etc. Where your finger ends up is a far more variable then you give it credit for, even with the same gun and holster.

 

Absolutely Agree with you there 100%.

 

Then the question really becomes about banning them.

 

To me, a Serpa Holster is just like a 2 lb trigger pull on a gun. In it of itself it is not bad, but to certain people it makes it exponentially less safe. However, does that mean we ban 2 lb triggers and institute a minimum trigger pull requirement.

 

Bottom line, I think people should be aware of using such holsters, however we can't blame the holster design for people's mistakes.

 

For instance... this weekend, during the make ready, a competitor dropped a gun while holstering into a DAA/Ghost type holster. (the ones where it holds it only by the trigger guard). Whose fault is that? Holster or competitor. Do we recommend that people not buy those types of holsters?

 

Blade tech holsters... a competitor had a gun fall out of holster while going kneeling or prone during a 3 gun match last year. Serpa would of prevented it.

 

I think all tools have both pros and cons, and people should know about them.

[blksheep 466]

Maks do you have a vid of that Ghost holster? Is that the ones you see for steel and things of that nature?

[Vlad G 345]

Maks, I can't ban them and I don't plan to, the most I can do is make my concerns available to those I'm likely to run into at the range, hence this post. Dropping a gun is shooter negligence, nothing else, we don't have "speed holstering" but we sure have speed draws. Having your gun fall out of a bladetech tells me that someone adjusted that holster to not have any retention which could be done to anything. We could also talk about dry rotting leather holsters, screws falling out Safariland ones, or whatever other way you can make a holster fail when not used as directed, they point I'm trying to make is that the Serpa can work against when used as directed.

[Maksim 1,504]

Maks do you have a vid of that Ghost holster? Is that the ones you see for steel and things of that nature?

 

This is the type of "holster" and we use that term loosely.

 

 

The competitor was rushing/what not and did not get it in the trigger guard/lock portion. And if you miss.... nothing else there.

 

Another person with a very similar holster, had a gun bumped out of it and fell in the morning.

 

 

This is a big fear of mine, so for that reason my own holster for the race type guns is with a platform.

 

[blksheep 466]

I always say you have to rush to get it out, not put it back in.

[Maksim 1,504]

they point I'm trying to make is that the Serpa can work against when used as directed.

 

Yes, in the Glock case... I 100% agree with you. The Serpa design of that holster, combined with glock design puts your finger really close to trigger guard.

 

In the other designs, not even close.

 

 

Btw, IIRC, the other ND that was in PA was while reholstering. You don't need your bugger finger to reholster a gun. In that case again, shooter error, not holster or holster design.

[raz-0 1,259]

lets see.

 

ghost used to make a pushbutton holster (not from their race holster side of the house).. now they don't, it's a thumb push design.

Fobus used to make a push button holster.. now they don't, it's a thumb push design.

 

Safariland's retention holster uses a thumb push design.

 

The only ones still doing it are iTac and blackhawk as far as I can tell. I suspect there is a reason.

[blksheep 466]

[blksheep 466]

My favorite.

[ronhonda 86]

Absolutely Agree with you there 100%.

 

Then the question really becomes about banning them.

 

To me, a Serpa Holster is just like a 2 lb trigger pull on a gun. In it of itself it is not bad, but to certain people it makes it exponentially less safe. However, does that mean we ban 2 lb triggers and institute a minimum trigger pull requirement.

 

Bottom line, I think people should be aware of using such holsters, however we can't blame the holster design for people's mistakes.

 

For instance... this weekend, during the make ready, a competitor dropped a gun while holstering into a DAA/Ghost type holster. (the ones where it holds it only by the trigger guard). Whose fault is that? Holster or competitor. Do we recommend that people not buy those types of holsters?

 

Blade tech holsters... a competitor had a gun fall out of holster while going kneeling or prone during a 3 gun match last year. Serpa would of prevented it.

 

I think all tools have both pros and cons, and people should know about them.

Again that shooter had his holster as loose as it went. The gun fell out because there was no tension to it. Also add in the fact that he was somewhat new to action shooting, and it was his 1st 3gun match. I know he was on my squad and and I was the RO and I DQ'ed him.

[Vlad G 345]

Yes, in the Glock case... I 100% agree with you. The Serpa design of that holster, combined with glock design puts your finger really close to trigger guard.

In the other designs, not even close.

 

The Glock platform is not the only one with a problem, I actually own another one I can show with the same issue. As I can't play with every single holster/gun combo I'm hesitant to say there is a list of good and bad or what list would be tomorrow, but the design is silly and a bad idea.

 

Btw, IIRC, the other ND that was in PA was while reholstering. You don't need your bugger finger to reholster a gun. In that case again, shooter error, not holster or holster design.

 

That was not the case I was referring to, I'm not even sure what holster was involved in that case, then one I'm referring to come to light from a conversation with other match directors recently.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

lets see.

 

ghost used to make a pushbutton holster (not from their race holster side of the house).. now they don't, it's a thumb push design.

Fobus used to make a push button holster.. now they don't, it's a thumb push design.

 

Safariland's retention holster uses a thumb push design.

 

The only ones still doing it are iTac and blackhawk as far as I can tell. I suspect there is a reason.

 

How you activate the holster isn't the issue, it's where your finger rests when drawing. You can draw from a thumb holster and still end up with your finger on the trigger.

 

As always, you gotta practice with the equipment that you have. I'd love to go thumb-drive (5.11), but I really don't see an urgency to do so.

[BlueLineFish 615]

I love my glock Serpa. I will be getting one for my m&p real soon.

[Maksim 1,504]

Yes.... the example of the gun falling out was not to say that all bladetechs have issues. Merely to point out that any holster can have issues when not adjusted properly for whatever you are using it for.

 

I love blade tech holsters and their support, as evident by them coming out to the forum to take care of some issue someone was having.

 

Vlad, I think that suggestion is terrific idea... make a list and sticky somewhere of known Serpa holsters where your finger is left in a not so ideal location. This would avoid alot of the bashing threads and the bickering of "I have no issues" and "Holster made me pull trigger."

 

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