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Sandy

Not good , not good.

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I only cited the portion of the law based on him being the aggressor, as that is what I assumed him to be. If he was not the aggressor, then nothing I posted applies, and it is a completely different situation. I certainly don't know what happened, and based on the details I had was making an assumption that he was the aggressor.

 

What I do know is that it is a crappy situation regardless of how it went down.

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It looks like the law says that if he provoked him he can't claim self defense , but he may be covered by the "unless" part where "Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger " So they way I read it , and this is my interpretation , he provoked , yes...but then found himself in imminent danger of death.

 

Now , if I am the prosecutor , I am having a field day with a 240 pound 28 year old man who was in danger of death because a 140 pound kid with skittles and a drink can was beating him up after being followed by him. At this point , they are both perceiving themselves in a self defense struggle. Gun beats skittles.

 

No matter how you slice it , no matter how it "was" as opposed to how it looks..a guy that outweighed an unarmed kid by 100 pounds follows him against advice , struggles with him , shoots him. Instant poster case for the antis.

 

It is a bad shoot . An unarmed armed boy was gunned down. I consider that a "bad shoot" regardless of the law. The only "good shoot" is where the bad guy gets it. It is at the very least a stupid stupid mistake on the part of the shooter , and it may be murder.

 

140 pounds means nothing. Look at some of these lightweight UFC fighters. Most of those kids could destroy a good portion of males out on the street regardless of aga and size.

 

UFC guys are generally multiple black belt holders and experienced competition fighters. Even if this kid was on the high school wrestling team you could not compare him to a professional fighter.

 

Unless Zimmerman can somehow convince the people that he thought the tea can was a gun ..he is way WAY on the wrong.

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This was just some county bumpkin red neck white trash looking to shoot someone. It's pretty sad but I am glad that Florida has the death penalty and I hope Zimm meet the criteria. That guy was afraid of a little kid that was 140 lb? What a terrible combination....a frightened coward with the right to carry a firearm.

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Here is the law to which I was referring - and, probably, the reason Zimmerman is not (yet) incarcerated.

 

Fl Statute 776-013

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

 

It may be a tough row to hoe for Zimmerman to prove he was in fear for his life, given the disparity in size and age, but there are no witnesses. This may end as badly as it began.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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30+ min of audio tells most of the story. http://z6mag.com/featured/trayvon-martin-911-call-from-neighbors-and-zimmerman-audio-166633.html

A major point not expalined or even mentioned in the news is that he was apparently running and in peoples backyards; not on the street as described.

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30+ min of audio tells most of the story. http://z6mag.com/fea...dio-166633.html

A major point not expalined or even mentioned in the news is that he was apparently running and in peoples backyards; not on the street as described.

 

We don't know the full details of what the kid did. If I saw someone jumping through yards, I'd assume they were trying to flee after doing something. I mean, that is VERY suspicious behavior. I can't blame Zimm for thinking the kid was up to something based on that. The other question is what happened to prompt the shots being fired. To me it seems like the situation was something like Zimm called the kid out, asked him what he was doing. What happened here is unknown. Based on the character of this Zimmerman guy, I'm assuming the kid said something rude to him, and he got pissed and shot. I'm rather surprised that no one has reported on whether there was evidence, or lack thereof, of a struggle. Where was the kid shot? If it was in the back, then it should be pretty obvious he was murdered. If he was shot from the front, it's possible that he may have confronted Zimmerman, or even charged at him. Whether this is threatening enough to warrant self defense, I do not know, but I feel like some stuff isn't being reported.

 

I know this is really going to rile up the anti-gunners though. I'm sure some anti-carry legislation will be drafted with this kid's name.

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latest i;ve heard is that the "New Black Liberation Militia" are calling for volunteers to go to this guy's home and make a "Citizen's Arrest"........ Now THAT has the potential for ending badly.

 

http://colorlines.co...ns_shooter.html

 

On it's face it looks like a bad shoot..that said, Anyone who's been around for a while might remember Gary Spath from Teaneck PD. in 1990 he shot a black teenager, and was subsequently vilified in the media, to the point that Sharpton and co. were staging protests in front of Gary's home. it wasnt until the trial that it became public that the kid was already a banger, and was ARMED..

 

As it is though in this case...the shooter sounds like an ahole at the least....doesnt necessarily make him a CRIMINAL per se, but maybe a Negligent Ahole.

 

 

Can't be negligent with a firearm!

Scig

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I'm failing to see what relevance this has to the matter. Having a CCW and being a neighborhood watch volunteer doesn't DEPUTIZE George Zimmerman to investigate and thrwart crime. He is tasked with contacting the authorities in the event of suspicion. Beyond that, I don't see what authority he has to confront anyone. His "self-defense" defense is, I think, ridiculous. When Zimmerman says Martin starts to run, Zimmerman sounds like he is already outside of his vehicle. His breath is labored like he is giving chase. It sounds like Trayvon Martin was the one acting in self-defense here. George Zimmerman isn't a uniformed LEO. He's a 28 year old man following me, watching me and now confronting me on foot.

 

Stand Your Ground doesn't apply if:

The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity

 

 

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. (Several witnesses claim to have heard the 17 year old screaming for help and shouting no. Victim's father identifys screams as from his son on the 911 call. Zimmerman claims HE is the one screaming for help)

History.s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

 

 

Let us not be guilty of turning the victim in this case into the perp and the perp into a hero.

 

 

We don't know the full details of what the kid did. If I saw someone jumping through yards, I'd assume they were trying to flee after doing something. I mean, that is VERY suspicious behavior. I can't blame Zimm for thinking the kid was up to something based on that. The other question is what happened to prompt the shots being fired. To me it seems like the situation was something like Zimm called the kid out, asked him what he was doing. What happened here is unknown. Based on the character of this Zimmerman guy, I'm assuming the kid said something rude to him, and he got pissed and shot. I'm rather surprised that no one has reported on whether there was evidence, or lack thereof, of a struggle. Where was the kid shot? If it was in the back, then it should be pretty obvious he was murdered. If he was shot from the front, it's possible that he may have confronted Zimmerman, or even charged at him. Whether this is threatening enough to warrant self defense, I do not know, but I feel like some stuff isn't being reported.

 

I know this is really going to rile up the anti-gunners though. I'm sure some anti-carry legislation will be drafted with this kid's name.

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Can't be negligent with a firearm!

Scig

 

Sure you can.....there's a very popular Youtube/Liveleak video of a DEA agent conducting a "Safety Class" for school kids that shows just HOW Negligent people can be with firearms.

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Supposedly he was on the street talking in the phone with his girlfriend when he mentioned someone was following him. If someone was following me I'd probably cut through some yards to get away. The guy was told not to chase and he did. A kid is dead. The guy needs to be in jail.

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Just because he approached and confronted the individual doesn't mean he "instigated" or provoked anything. For all we know he was just trying to figure out who this guy was, that is not provoking force. Something happened there after that we don't fully know or understand. The kid could have started a fight, which lead zimmer to pull on him. It does seem like the only logical explanation, although who really knows.

 

Sorry Joe but your entire first sentence is completely contradictory. if the guy had done what he was told, stayed back and observed the kid, and waited for the PD to get there... which is pretty much the playbook of EVERY Neighborhood Watch Org i'm familar with, he'd be Ok.....Instead it SOUNDS like he decided to play Cop.

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Sorry Joe but your entire first sentence is completely contradictory. if the guy had done what he was told, stayed back and observed the kid, and waited for the PD to get there... which is pretty much the playbook of EVERY Neighborhood Watch Org i'm familar with, he'd be Ok.....Instead it SOUNDS like he decided to play Cop.

 

If i'm walking in my neighborhood, and see someone suspicious that i dont know and approach them to say hi, how in any way shape or form am i provoking or instigating them? That's all i was saying. The rest is just down hill from there.

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If i'm walking in my neighborhood, and see someone suspicious that i dont know and approach them to say hi, how in any way shape or form am i provoking or instigating them? That's all i was saying. The rest is just down hill from there.

because it was more than that and because without a badge and a uniform you look like some j/o trying to run a scheme.

And like pipes said, it sounds like trying to play cop is the issue, not saying "hi"

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He said that on the 911 tapes ? I must have missed an update.

 

I think it is important for responsible gun owners and those who value their 2nd amendment rights to demand justice here . The way it looks this guy first and foremost killed an unarmed boy , but he has also done all of us a great disservice as well. The "one bad apple ruins it for the bunch " thing.

 

The media can spin things into complete fiction . But with the facts with this case - boy unarmed , 911 tapes , this looks like there is no other angle besides vigilante behavior . People going rogue with their right to carry will cause a ripple effect . This is not the first case where Florida's Stand Down law has drawn negative attention to carrying a gun. I would need to find out that the boy was heard saying he was going to gut Zimmerman or something in order to change my opinion of this one.

 

As a parent and as someone who values my 2nd Amendment rights I find this case awful on more than one front.

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Please stop speculating znd let the cops do their job.

 

All that is known is that Zimmerman shot the boy.

Zimmerman does not seem solid but I read that his head was

Covered with his own blood and had grass stains on his back.

 

The boy also was not the clean cut kid the papers are making him out to be.

He was spend the week at his dad house (not his normal residence)

because he was suspended for aweek from school.

 

Should he have been shot? I have no idea.

 

But there are plenty of question that need answers before passing judgement.

 

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30+ min of audio tells most of the story. http://z6mag.com/fea...dio-166633.html

A major point not expalined or even mentioned in the news is that he was apparently running and in peoples backyards; not on the street as described.

 

I think I saw where it was in a neighborhood like a development or something similar where there really isn't a backyard per se but a common area or courtyard where a group of home's back door has immediate access to.

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Please stop speculating znd let the cops do their job.

 

All that is known is that Zimmerman shot the boy.

Zimmerman does not seem solid but I read that his head was

Covered with his own blood and had grass stains on his back.

 

The boy also was not the clean cut kid the papers are making him out to be.

He was spend the week at his dad house (not his normal residence)

because he was suspended for aweek from school.

 

Should he have been shot? I have no idea.

 

But there are plenty of question that need answers before passing judgement.

 

I'm not trying to be rude to you or anything like that, but are you a mod??? As long as people aren't being rude to each other and discussing in a friendly manner, I don't see why we couldn't speculate until we were blue in the face. After all, this IS a discussion board; right?

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I've left this topic off my facebook page because while I am willing to discuss it , the possibilities etc in a relevant forum like this I am not willing to have it "out there" because it will just turn nasty and be about gun control. I have too many far left and far right friends and relatives. Thanksgiving is tough enough as it is.

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Please stop speculating znd let the cops do their job.

 

All that is known is that Zimmerman shot the boy.

Zimmerman does not seem solid but I read that his head was

Covered with his own blood and had grass stains on his back.

 

The boy also was not the clean cut kid the papers are making him out to be.

He was spend the week at his dad house (not his normal residence)

because he was suspended for aweek from school.

 

Should he have been shot? I have no idea.

 

But there are plenty of question that need answers before passing judgement.

 

I respect your opinion here. I think that the point of this story, beyond the possible murder implications is that the police HAVEN'T been doing their jobs. Even though Fl SYG statute provides for meeting force on force, it is a positive defense. The burden of proof is upon the person using defensive force....not the dead person. Circumstances are that the unarmed minor was shot by a gunman claiming self defense. The perpetrator initiated a call to 911 to report suspicious activity (of the victim) and then pursued the victim (who ran away...possibly out of fear for life and limb)

 

The perp admitted to the dispatcher that he was in pursuit of the victim, was advised not to continue with that action.

 

The circumstances under which the physical altercation began (whether Zimemrman tried to physically restrain the minor and found he bit off more than he could chew, OR the minor attacked him for stalking him) may be hard to know without substantial witness testimony (the girl on the phone with Martin, neighbors who state that the minor was calling for help before he was shot).

 

In understand the desire for this whole case NOT to be about CCW and Castle laws. However, jsut because the triggerman is a legal gun owner shouldn't cloud common sense judgement and what appears to be an active desire to paint the victim as the perpetrator.

 

Trayvon Martin was NOT in the commission of a crime at the time he was observed by George Zimmerman. Trayvon Martin was not in posession of any type of weapon. He appears to have been pursued (at personal risk and in contravention to police advice) by a self-deputized 28 year old civilian with a handgun, legally intended for self-defense. That handgun was used to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.

 

Witnesses to the crime purport to have seen and heard an account of the confrontation that differs from Zimmerman's story.

 

At a minimum, Zimmerman should have been detained, given the opportunity to seek counsel, and checked for blood toxicology pending all eyewitness statements.

 

Unfortunately, this case will become an anti's wet dream when it SHOULD be about why local police in Sanford Florida didn't execute proper due diligence.

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And now the media starts with this being a reason we shouldn't carry guns:

http://www.bloomberg...s-gun-laws.html

 

Could you have picked a more anti-gun branch of the MSM to link to? Everyone will (already has) pile on, but what Bloomberg media is going to say is a foregone conclusion,

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That was kind of my point LOL. Its a sad state of affairs. I just started reading this book More Guns Less Crime and man what a nice read so far. Just fact after fact after fact. Probably a staple read here, but if you haven't, definitely check it out.

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I know nothing about this kid except what has been discussed on the news, but these days, I don't think you can say a kid is bad just because of a school suspension. Kids get suspended now a days for the most ridiculous reasons, including wearing American flag shirts on Cinco De Mayo.

 

Absurd.

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That was kind of my point LOL. Its a sad state of affairs. I just started reading this book More Guns Less Crime and man what a nice read so far. Just fact after fact after fact. Probably a staple read here, but if you haven't, definitely check it out.

 

John Stossel right?

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This will definately challeng the Fla. "Stand Your Ground Law"..........IMO.

Because of this shooting, Florida's governor has already said that he's going to re-examine the stand your ground law to see if it needs to be changed.

 

Sadly, it's incidents like these that will make it all but impossible for NJ to ever see any CCW reform, IMHO

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