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Sig and HK owners, why did you feel it was worth paying more for your gun?

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Ergonomics are subjective so that doesn't really hold water, some people's hands fit the glock 2x4 profile (the poor bastards), but I'm curious why you think hammer fired is better.

 

+1 Vlad. Ergonomics for me.... make it worth it.

 

In the 10k rounds I had through my P30L, not one issue.

 

100 rounds through my m&p 9 pro, 2 light strikes, out of a stock gun.

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Hammer fired guns are more expensive to make. There are more parts and the parts needs more machining. Not that they are necessarily better from a practical stand point. HKs do come with better made parts, the recoil spring assembly is a good example. One advantage of some of these hammer guns is second strike capability in the DA/SA or DAO configurtation. Only very few striker fired guns have that capability, Walther P99.

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Hammer fired guns are more expensive to make. There are more parts and the parts needs more machining. Not that they are necessarily better from a practical stand point. HKs do come with better made parts, the recoil spring assembly is a good example. One advantage of some of these hammer guns is second strike capability in the DA/SA or DAO configurtation. Only very few striker fired guns have that capability, Walther P99.

 

1) There are a TON of cheap hammer fired guns, most of those parts not machined, they are cast. Has Ruger ever made one that cost more then $400 for example? Machined tool steel internal are more expensive but outside cutsom or semi-custom guns those don't really exist in the wild anymore.

2) Second strike sounds good, except it is a waste of time, rack the slide and press the boom switch. A round that didn't go off the first time rarely goes of the second time, what if your gun never fed a new round, etc, etc. I'll also note the most popular hammer fired guns, the 1911s, don't have second strike abilities and no one cares. There is a reason everyone and their mother is abandoning that idea.

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I still hold to my previous assessment that this debate is NOT winnable by either side as there are obviously a number of reasons why one would chose to purchase a more expensive handgun. Physical, psychological, aesthetics, and design aspects are all arguments made by their owners. Does it make one gun more reliable then its cheaper counterpart? probably not.

 

This can go the same as a honda owner asking why the guy with the audi felt compelled to spend the extra 20k on his car. The only winners in this debate are the ones that can identify what firearms make themselves perform to their optimum capabilities, and follow through with keeping their skills and muscle memory sharp with their own respective handguns.

 

:derisive:

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2) Second strike sounds good, except it is a waste of time, rack the slide and press the boom switch. A round that didn't go off the first time rarely goes of the second time, what if your gun never fed a new round, etc, etc. I'll also note the most popular hammer fired guns, the 1911s, don't have second strike abilities and no one cares. There is a reason everyone and their mother is abandoning that idea.

 

Trained or untrained, there's less time to think about racking & tapping procedures when a threat is coming for you. Think of it as driving & texting at the same time. you are in a panic, high heart rate, tracking a moving target, watching in the peripheral for moving civilians, mentally digesting the situation, you'll need 2 hands to rack n tap, you already acquired the target in your sights, etc..

 

with rack n tap, you already took your eyes & sights off the target in order to confirm you correctly ejected the dud.

 

2nd strikes are more instinctive since your finger is already pulling the trigger. some govt agencies use DAO. the trigger s*cks but what the heck.

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You are not supposed to think about tap rack bang, the cold harsh truth is that pressing the trigger is almost NEVER going to make that round fire, it is a waste of time, you will need to feed a new round anyway, might as well get used it.

 

It makes some sense in a revolver, makes no sense in a semiauto.

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You are not supposed to think about tap rack bang, the cold harsh truth is that pressing the trigger is almost NEVER going to make that round fire, it is a waste of time, you will need to feed a new round anyway, might as well get used it.

 

It makes some sense in a revolver, makes no sense in a semiauto.

 

I say this is a non issue since it rarely happens in commerical ammo

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You are not supposed to think about tap rack bang, the cold harsh truth is that pressing the trigger is almost NEVER going to make that round fire, it is a waste of time, you will need to feed a new round anyway, might as well get used it.

 

It makes some sense in a revolver, makes no sense in a semiauto.

 

What about light primer strikes?

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Damn, and I paid over 1500 for my 1911 and that was cheap in regards to quality 1911s!

 

At least when you rack n tap a 1911, you can reach the small trigger guard so you don't prematurely go BANG while racking!

That's another point. Accidental discharge when you rack the slide while your trigger finger is in position to fire?

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What about light primer strikes?

 

Fix your gun.

 

Personally, I love hammers since you can physically eyeball it to see what condition your pistol is at.

 

Its always loaded, no?

 

At least when you rack n tap a 1911, you can reach the small trigger guard so you don't prematurely go BANG while racking!

That's another point. Accidental discharge when you rack the slide while your trigger finger is in position to fire?

 

Keep your finger OFF the trigger unless you are ready to fire, this is one of those skills people REALLY need to get used to.

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Keep your finger OFF the trigger unless you are ready to fire, this is one of those skills people REALLY need to get used to.

 

Vlad, always loaded :-)

In a life n death situation, will you really waste time & take the extra step of repositioning your trigger finger in order to rack the slide?

If you don't will the average person have enough grip strength to use 4 fingers to control the grip while racking a heavy spring?

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1) There are a TON of cheap hammer fired guns, most of those parts not machined, they are cast. Has Ruger ever made one that cost more then $400 for example? Machined tool steel internal are more expensive but outside cutsom or semi-custom guns those don't really exist in the wild anymore.

2) Second strike sounds good, except it is a waste of time, rack the slide and press the boom switch. A round that didn't go off the first time rarely goes of the second time, what if your gun never fed a new round, etc, etc. I'll also note the most popular hammer fired guns, the 1911s, don't have second strike abilities and no one cares. There is a reason everyone and their mother is abandoning that idea.

 

I did not say the parts has to be machined. There's more machining on the engagement surfaces. The parts themselves can be cast but the sear, hammer single action notch, double action notch, holes in the hammer, all has to be cleaned up. You'll need hammer strut, spring, trigger bar, safety lever for the plunger, etc. There are simply more parts and more engagement surfaces than a typical striker fired gun. Thus more expensive to make. You need to compare apples to apples. You are using Rugers from years ago. I am pretty sure if Ruger still makes the hammer fired guns today they will cost more to make than the SR9 series. There are modern hammer fired guns that has modular firing control units that are cheaper to make. But still has more parts than striker fired guns.

 

Regarding second strike. I've experienced PLENTY of times rounds that did not go boom the first time that went off on the second strike. Esp with Russian surplus rounds with harder primers. Now whether this is better or worse than tap/rack/bang is another story.

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Vlad, always loaded :-)

In a life n death situation, will you really waste time & take the extra step of repositioning your trigger finger in order to rack the slide?

If you don't will the average person have enough grip strength to use 4 fingers to control the grip while racking a heavy spring?

 

If you do it the same way all the time there is no need to think about it and it will be automatic, exactly what you want to happen in a panic or stressful situation. After all you don't want a AD to take out the wrong person. Practice practice practice.

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Guys I hate to say it but if one of my products costs me exactly the same to make as other products but people will pay more for mine, I will charge more. Any business that does not operate this way likely wont be in business long..... You simply cannot look at production costs alone. Wheres it made? Whats the labor rate there? Does the manufacturer provide weapons to the US military? Any idea what that does to overhead costs to make a facility meet DOD req's for a military firearm manufacturer???? Its not simply production costs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Vlad, always loaded :-)

In a life n death situation, will you really waste time & take the extra step of repositioning your trigger finger in order to rack the slide?

 

Yeah and it takes NO time, and I can prove it. This is one area where the competition shooters help everyone one by figuring this stuff out, and trust me when I say that no matter how fast you are going removing your finger off the trigger and putting it back can and should become second nature and take no extra time. Think about it, how long does it take to move your hand to the slide vs how long does it take to move a single finger .. no matter how fast you do it, you have time to do it.

 

If you don't will the average person have enough grip strength to use 4 fingers to control the grip while racking a heavy spring?

 

What? Is your plan to be gripping your gun WITH the trigger finger AND apply pressure on the trigger to control the gun while racking the slide? That is an incredibly unsafe idea, please stop doing it that, unless you are shooting, your trigger finger should be outside the trigger guard or you are asking for an accident.

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In regard to the second strike issue I've found it useful but from a reloaders standpoint and

most of the time the reason the round needed a second strike was cause it was my fault not

seating the primer deep enough. Although a couple occasions when I use Wolf primers which

are hard the second strike has set them off.

 

I guess from a competitive standpoint it would probably be faster to just rack the slide for a

fresh round. Also, in a 1911, you can just thumb the hammer back, you don't have to rack

the slide. I do this sometimes in with my 22 upper to set off the round if the first strike didn't

get it.

 

In regard to the original topic, I don't think second strike makes a gun more worth it necessarily.

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I bought a USP45, Variant 1 in 1995. Some fellow had put only 100 rounds through it and decided he preferred his 1911's better. I paid $450 for it. (Compared to a Series 80 SS Government I'd purchased new ten years earlier for the exact same price, I thought the USP was a bargain at the time for some of the features it offered compared to the Colt .) I thought the USP was a beautifully engineered modern pistol and a quality piece. I never once had a problem with mine. When I read this thread it made me regret that I sold it some years ago. If there was one gripe I had with it, I found that for me it was not an instinctive pointer in my hand. Other handguns are, the USP was not.

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