Breaking news... Russians think the M16 sucks

[Shane45 807]

Yes I would agree that CS has waxed and waned. But in the new model of distributed manufacturing, it may not matter if they have the capability to meet the entire demand themselves. But as an aside, if you get a good XCR it seems to be a solid rifle. Unfortunatley when I had mine it did not have the stock options it has today and the original stock is something I did wrestle a lot with.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

And that is exactly the concerns that come from licensing models.... remember compliance is simply as srong as your bank account to fund legal action!

 

The difference is Magpul gave only one company the licensing rights. While legal action may be one route to control licensing, competition between manufacturers is another means (see: Google Android model). The nice thing about the ACR is that Magpul was going to be a sub for all the plastic components anyways, and all Bushmaster/Remington had to do was extrude/form some aluminum, build some AR barrels, and manufacture AR-15 trigger groups. So they got money for every rifle sold and for the sub-component parts.

 

Frankly, I think the 'Bushmaster ACR' experiment is over. From what I've heard, distributors are waiting a long time for new ones to be built, and they're not coming down the pipe in any meaningful number. Remington/Bushmaster may also not be hitting their sales targets for the rifle either, which means that Magpul may just take the rights back and produce it in house, or split it with someone else.

 

All in all, Magpul still made a lot money off the deal and didn't produce a single ACR, and if they choose to release their own ACR in a few years, they would be isolated from the QC and mistakes Remington/Bushmaster made.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Yes I would agree that CS has waxed and waned. But in the new model of distributed manufacturing, it may not matter if they have the capability to meet the entire demand themselves. But as an aside, if you get a good XCR it seems to be a solid rifle. Unfortunatley when I had mine it did not have the stock options it has today and the original stock is something I did wrestle a lot with.

 

I've looked at them. The price isn't too bad, but it seems to me that the best thing to do is to wait and see what happens. Especially with the Individual Carbine contract.

 

The winner of that will benefit greatly... except if it's Colt. Then it's more of the same.

 

I don't think the competition is clear-cut either... while the Bushmaster ACR is trash, I've read good things about Remington's design. Maybe because the QC is better, but also because they really want to win. Remington really lags when it comes to gov't contracts, so the stakes are higher for them to win the ICC than it is for FN (who has several international customers and other major product lines). There is also one factor that can help them win, and that is the fact they are an American company. Dunno if it counts for much though...

[Shane45 807]

Well you have to remember that FN supplies A LOT to the govt.

 

"Remington really lags when it comes to gov't contracts"

 

Im curious what makes you say this?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Well you have to remember that FN supplies A LOT to the govt.

 

"Remington really lags when it comes to gov't contracts"

 

Im curious what makes you say this?

 

In comparison to FN. Aside from the M24/XM2010, what does Remington actually build for the military in a significant quantity? FN, in addition to the SCAR, supplies machine guns, and is even an alternate for M-16 production. Not to mention their international contracts with other countries.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

This thread should be locked for everyone EXCEPT Shane545 and DevsAdvocate.

[Shane45 807]

DA did you hear something?

 

Weird, sounded like a Rachel Ray cooking show.

 

Anyway, yes the M24 is what I had in mind. That was a pretty looong contract for a lot of rifles and suppt.

[Shane45 807]

The fact is Ray, its a good thing for everyone when debates and discusions remaine civil! If its uninteresting to you just skip the thread. But if just one person learned something or got a better idea on what consideration are made in bringing a product to market, then I dont mind discussing it.

[Dan 177]

I for one have been enjoying reading the back and forth on the subject. What this thread has evolved from a joke into a fairly good debate of sorts.

 

The most important thing is......, who can get me a discount on a Robarm XCR-M 18.5" in .260 Rem.

[Shane45 807]

My time behind a .260 was rather short so im not the authority but I dont think I would go below 22". IIRC the 260 needs the barrle length or you start giving up a lot of the advantage it has over 308.

[Dan 177]

My time behind a .260 was rather short so im not the authority but I dont think I would go below 22". IIRC the 260 needs the barrle length or you start giving up a lot of the advantage it has over 308.

 

Dam you and your knowledge! Now I don't want it any longer.

[Shane45 807]

Hey theres always a 16" 308

[DevsAdvocate 112]

DA did you hear something?

 

Weird, sounded like a Rachel Ray cooking show.

 

Anyway, yes the M24 is what I had in mind. That was a pretty looong contract for a lot of rifles and suppt.

 

Yepp. Now they have the XM2010 to replace that. But that's nowhere near the volume of a semi-auto carbine.

[axeman_g 128]

Guys... great discussion and I have learned alot. I am not in the manufacturing field but come from a CS or client services background. One thing I would like to comment on right away is DA's point that FN does not care about the civy market. As an FN customer over the years I strongly object. Sure they market heavily to Le/MIL, that is a large if not largest chunk of their market base. But FN has always, always been about the civilian shooter. It is part of their corporate culture. The are heavily invested in civy shooting comps, multi media and outreach. Want to have fun, go to their corp facility in Columbia and get a tour. Put in a handgun order to be later shipped to your FFL, and watch its main components get manufactured on the assembly lines. That is customer service.

 

I like to equate rifles to vehicles. The same economics that price an auto/truck price a firearm. IP, manufacturing costs, labor, shipping, licensing, etc etc.

A Hyundai Genesis 4.6 is about the equaivalent feature wise as the s400 mercedes-benz. Is the hyaundai worth 50K verus the S's 100K price.... yep. Is it equal... no. Is the MB overvalued... you betya'! Is it worth it... in the long run yes. Will the mercedes still look the same, feel the same, drive the same and invoke appreciative glances 20yrs from now if maintained, Yep. Will the Hyundai if maintained to equal levels? Doubtful.

 

 

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Guys... great discussion and I have learned alot. I am not in the manufacturing field but come from a CS or client services background. One thing I would like to comment on right away is DA's point that FN does not care about the civy market. As an FN customer over the years I strongly object. Sure they market heavily to Le/MIL, that is a large if not largest chunk of their market base. But FN has always, always been about the civilian shooter. It is part of their corporate culture. The are heavily invested in civy shooting comps, multi media and outreach. Want to have fun, go to their corp facility in Columbia and get a tour. Put in a handgun order to be later shipped to your FFL, and watch its main components get manufactured on the assembly lines. That is customer service.

 

I like to equate rifles to vehicles. The same economics that price an auto/truck price a firearm. IP, manufacturing costs, labor, shipping, licensing, etc etc.

A Hyundai Genesis 4.6 is about the equaivalent feature wise as the s400 mercedes-benz. Is the hyaundai worth 50K verus the S's 100K price.... yep. Is it equal... no. Is the MB overvalued... you betya'! Is it worth it... in the long run yes. Will the mercedes still look the same, feel the same, drive the same and invoke appreciative glances 20yrs from now if maintained, Yep. Will the Hyundai if maintained to equal levels? Doubtful.

 

When I mentioned that FN doesn't care about the civilian market, I meant it to be: They make so much more profit off of their military sales that they really don't need to expand in the civilian marketplace. They have great CS from what I've heard, and good outreach. But they are first and foremost a military/LE supplier.

 

As for the car comparison, I don't think that translates too well into the firearm world. While price-sticking plays a role to an extent (Glocks are overpriced because price-point = perception of value), there is a point where value just doesn't match the price-point. The ACR is a great example of this: unproven, new, missing a lot of wanted features, yet demanding SCAR-level prices at the outset. W.T.F.? At least the FN SCAR can claim a SOCOM Premium due to it's use by combat personnel... but not the ACR. That being said... I think the SCAR-16 is still a bit overpriced and would be willing to wait until that comes down. Especially if FN wins the new Army contract.

[axeman_g 128]

I agree on almost 100% on two of your three points, Fn is first and foremost a LE/MIL supplier, but for some reason I dont see this as an issue as long as they treat their civy consumers well, which they do and unlike HK, Steyr and some small boutique manufacturers. The pricing on the ACR is out of touch and has been, but if Rem is having to ramp up for mil contracts and they are planning on a 5yr (I dont know) business plan to payback ramp up costs... then that is the cost. It wont sell, and will stagnate, Rem wont listen to focus groups and then they will complain that nobody likes their rifle and drop it. Shame on them. The SCAR is a MUCH better rifle then the ACR and should command more money. Glocks = Toyota Trucks, ACR = Audi sedans, SCAR = Bugatti Veyron

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I agree on almost 100% on two of your three points, Fn is first and foremost a LE/MIL supplier, but for some reason I dont see this as an issue as long as they treat their civy consumers well, which they do and unlike HK, Steyr and some small boutique manufacturers. The pricing on the ACR is out of touch and has been, but if Rem is having to ramp up for mil contracts and they are planning on a 5yr (I dont know) business plan to payback ramp up costs... then that is the cost. It wont sell, and will stagnate, Rem wont listen to focus groups and then they will complain that nobody likes their rifle and drop it. Shame on them. The SCAR is a MUCH better rifle then the ACR and should command more money. Glocks = Toyota Trucks, ACR = Audi sedans, SCAR = Bugatti Veyron

 

I dunno about any of that. It's just another 5.56 shooter. Is it worth the $800 price difference between my BCM AR-15? I mean, is that $800 worth avoiding a change of my extractor spring/claw at 30,000 rounds? Even in NJ, is it worth it knowing I'll never play in the sandbox?

 

To some, it may be worth it. I don't put anywhere near the round counts on my rifles as other do, so for me it's a bit more questionable.

[Shane45 807]

If I had to use car comparisons, the SCAR would be a Hummer H1, the ACR an H3 and a glock would be a civic

[Shane45 807]

DA stop confusing value with cost!!!!!!!!!!!! Value is right where the market places it. If you have no problem selling all you produce, then the value is spot on! If your sitting on a bunch of them then the value is not there in the market and your cost is too high....

 

"To some, it may be worth it. I don't put anywhere near the round counts on my rifles as other do, so for me it's a bit more questionable"

 

Correct! The value YOU place on the rifle is proportionate to your needs and it likely enters the catagory of diminished returns to exceed that cost.......

[DevsAdvocate 112]

DA stop confusing value with cost!!!!!!!!!!!! Value is right where the market places it. If you have no problem selling all you produce, then the value is spot on! If your sitting on a bunch of them then the value is not there in the market and your cost is too high....

 

"To some, it may be worth it. I don't put anywhere near the round counts on my rifles as other do, so for me it's a bit more questionable"

 

Correct! The value YOU place on the rifle is proportionate to your needs and it likely enters the catagory of diminished returns.......

 

Right. I'm just trying to point out why most folks who buy firearms typically balk at the SCAR's price. Especially in comparison to higher-end AR-15s... I mean, from what I've read, I'm reasonably confident my BCM AR-15 will go quite a while before it suffers any physical malfunctions... even to this day, the only times it had issues were magazine and ammo related.

 

I figure I'll get a SCAR or ACR eventually... but I'm hoping prices will drop a bit for both in the long run.

[Shane45 807]

IMO the price of the SCAR16 will drop if/when the next gen with non riciprocating charging handle is released or the version that can go 5.56 or 7.62.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

IMO the price of the SCAR16 will drop if/when the next gen with non riciprocating charging handle is released or the version that can go 5.56 or 7.62.

 

That's also one thing I'm hoping for as well. I don't like that I can get my thumb whacked while shooting the thing.

 

EDIT:

 

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?gid=FNG020&fid=FNF075&mid=FNM0239

 

[DevsAdvocate 112]

But then again... if Remington wins... will we see a civilian version of this?