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"No Firearms" clause in apartment lease

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I am supposed to be signing a lease this weekend for which they emailed me a copy of the lease to review... There is a "No firearms" clause in the lease. Has anyone dealt with this? Is there anything I can do? Is there any legal remifications other than the potential for a breach of the lease / eviction? Could there be any criminal liability? Should I just talk to building management and explain the truth? If they reject me it would be a big problem because there are no other options for rentals in the exact area we need to be in. Thanks -

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Better to deal with it now, than later when it would be even worse to have to move out on a moment's notice and possibly lose your deposit. oftentimes, leases are boilerplate and you can negotiate clauses to be stricken.

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I can't imagine a criminal liability for breaking a rental agreement. Obviously the worst case scenario would be an eviction notice. Aside from the management company entering your apartment and searching the place, how would they know you had firearms?

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Aside from the management company entering your apartment and searching the place, how would they know you had firearms?

 

Leases provide wide-ranging allowances for owners/management co's to enter their property. They can do maintenance, they can check to make sure the renters aren't destroying the place or sub-renting it to 10 people, they can check to make sure clauses aren't being violated. If it's a single handgun locked in a box somewhere, they're not going to see that, but the small gun safe is going to be easily seen during normal visits...

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Strike it out, sign it and dont say anything. If it becomes an issue they will look at the lease and find it stricken :D

 

This. I once had a lessor present a lease that specified "no unregistered vehicles allowed". At the time I had a motorcycle which was race-only and couldn't be made street legal, so I put a line through that clause and intialed it. This was done in the presence of the property manager though, so they knew what I was doing. They went along with it.

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This was covered here in July of last year: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25882-legality-of-apartment-buildings-putting-a-no-firearms-clause-in-your-lease/

 

Somehow, the consensus opinion was that the clause is not enforceable.

 

I don't come to the same conclusion. If you have a problem with one of the provisions in the lease, you should talk to the management company/landlord. If they won't agree to change the lease terms, speak to a lawyer to see if it's really enforceable.

 

Strike it out, sign it and dont say anything. If it becomes an issue they will look at the lease and find it stricken

 

Unfortunately, this is very likely an unenforceable modification to the lease.

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You'll just get opinions here , which is helpful , but not a sure bet for accuracy .

 

I don't know the law but if it were me strike and initial it and see what they say.

 

On the other hand It is very hard to evict someone in NJ even if they break lease terms.

 

I got caught with a little dog in an apartment I had taken where it said no pets in the lease. I said gee , I didn't notice that in the lease. I was a good tenant , had been there a few months ..I offered them an additional 100 deposit in case the dog ruined anything . They said it was fine , not to worry about it . It is hard to evict someone..you have to go to court usually a few times and it is no guarantee you will win in evicting someone.

 

If you are a good tenant it might not be an issue.

 

Who are you dealing with ? What is the feeling you get from them?

 

I would probably strike it and initial and see what they say.

 

Also , don't you have to do an address change for your FID? If there is a chance the landlord will see something in the mail you might get caught if you don't say something up front.

 

Is there anything in NJ law that deals with owning firearms in property you are leasing as opposed to owning ? Do the wishes of the private property owner trump your right to own? I don't know the answer to those questions but it may be worth looking up.

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Unlikely they can enforce it, even if they do they can't just throw you out on the street. Rental laws in NJ are very "renter friendly".

 

In any case, how would they know you have guns? Seeing a safe is not evidence of having guns and they can't ask that you open a safe. As long as you don't carry the guns to and from your car in a case that is obviously a gun case you shouldn't have any problems. If you're ever questioned about what you are seen carrying you play a large musical instrument, bagpipes perhaps?

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Unlikely they can enforce it, even if they do they can't just throw you out on the street. Rental laws in NJ are very "renter friendly".

 

 

How did you come to the conclusion that it's unlikely they can enforce it?

 

How did you come to the conclusion that rental laws in NJ are very renter friendly?

 

Eviction laws in NJ are pretty standard in terms of ability to evict someone.

 

True, it may take up to 10 months to get a tenant out, but only if the tenant is VERY savvy and able to prove to the court that they're completely unable to find other housing. But, even if the court grants a tenant the relief of delaying physical eviction, the court can only do that so long as the tenant pays the rent as it comes due (FL's laws are actually more tenant friendly, the tenant can avoid paying rent and still maintain possession--I've seen it done).

 

If you're a financially-fit person that isn't willing to lie to the court, and the grounds for eviction is your breaking the rules of the lease, then your eviction will likely take 4 months...MAX.

 

You can risk it, or you can talk to them, and decide from there. Either way, I would NOT rely on the clause being "unenforceable."

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Not a lawyer here, just applying my own logic. If you sign it as is, you essentially agreed to waive your rights? If you strike it and sign it, at least you can stand on the ground that, even though it is a rented home, it is still your home which you will not sign away your constitutional right. Your rights garner greater protection in your home from what i remeber of consitutional law.

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Sorry, I should have been more clear. The only problem that I have is that you suggested modifying the lease without saying anything.

 

Making a modification without saying anything makes that modification voidable and, possibly, the entire contract voidable.

 

The issue of Constitutional rights doesn't really come into play, because it's all private party actions. Unless you're talking about discriminatory practices or discriminatory covenants. Then, it's either statutorily illegal to discriminate or courts are unwilling to enforce discriminatory covenants (e.g. I promise not to have hispanic guests in my apartment), basically, because they don't want it to appear as though the court is "approving" of the discrimination.

 

In a lease or covenant, you can write off parts of your 1A rights (think of HOA's and apartment complexes that don't permit crosses, signs, flags or flag poles in the yard), and you can likely write off parts of your 2A rights, too.

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Not a lawyer here, just applying my own logic. If you sign it as is, you essentially agreed to waive your rights? If you strike it and sign it, at least you can stand on the ground that, even though it is a rented home, it is still your home which you will not sign away your constitutional right. Your rights garner greater protection in your home from what i remeber of consitutional law.

 

This.^^^^^^^^^^

Strike it out. Initial the change. Sign the contract. All they can do is not accept the change and you've lost nothing. But be prepared to walk away if they don't accept the change and you want to keep your firearms with you.

If it's not in the contract it's not enforcable.

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I am supposed to be signing a lease this weekend for which they emailed me a copy of the lease to review... There is a "No firearms" clause in the lease. Has anyone dealt with this? Is there anything I can do? Is there any legal ramifications other than the potential for a breach of the lease / eviction? Could there be any criminal liability? Should I just talk to building management and explain the truth? If they reject me it would be a big problem because there are no other options for rentals in the exact area we need to be in. Thanks -

 

 

I must admit that I'm surprised at some of the responses, especially those that suggest being deceptive and bordering illegal. It's quite simple. If you don't like the terms of the lease, look elsewhere. Your "rights" end when you enter someone else's dwelling. It's like saying that you don't like the rules here on NJGF, so you're going to do something to get around them or flat-out be deceptive and not abide by them. It's not your house, so abide by the rules or walk away. Otherwise, buy a house and you can carry your weapon butt-*ss naked in you want.

 

Why do you feel you have any rights to not comply with owners wishes? I'm just curious.

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I must admit that I'm surprised at some of the responses, especially those that suggest being deceptive and bordering illegal. It's quite simple. If you don't like the terms of the lease, look elsewhere. Your "rights" end when you enter someone else's dwelling. It's like saying that you don't like the rules here on NJGF, so you're going to do something to get around them or flat-out be deceptive and not abide by them. It's not your house, so abide by the rules or walk away. Otherwise, buy a house and you can carry your weapon butt-*ss naked in you want.

 

Why do you feel you have any rights to not comply with owners wishes? I'm just curious.

 

Unless the owner of the house is a lawyer, I would bet that he did not draw up the lease himself but rather used a boilerplate version available on the web. I would also guess that he may not know every clause in it for the same reason. Rather than assuming the anything about the landlord, why not review the lease and highlight things you want changed or removed. Then you show him the changes and hopefully he signs off on them. If not, then you can look elsewhere. Signing a lease should always be a negotiation. When it's not, the other side should walk away when possible.

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Unless the owner of the house is a lawyer, I would bet that he did not draw up the lease himself but rather used a boilerplate version available on the web. I would also guess that he may not know every clause in it for the same reason. Rather than assuming the anything about the landlord, why not review the lease and highlight things you want changed or removed. Then you show him the changes and hopefully he signs off on them. If not, then you can look elsewhere. Signing a lease should always be a negotiation. When it's not, the other side should walk away when possible.

 

 

I agree that there's nothing wrong about asking about the clause, however I get the impression the OP is moving forward with lease regardless of the answer and somehow "feels" his rights are being violated by that clause being in there. I can understand why an owner of an apartment complex and condos for that matter might have this clause in there.

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I must admit that I'm surprised at some of the responses, especially those that suggest being deceptive and bordering illegal.

 

It's a common theme. Anytime a poster asks if something is legal, the discussion digresses to avoiding getting caught. C'est la internet.

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Haha, this thread has me laughing. I imagine the clause was put in with the hopes that it would deter criminals, and drug dealers from moving in.

 

Of course, as is always the case, it merely creates a sticky situation for the legal gun owner, since only a person who follows the law gives a darn what a renter's agreement says.

 

Honestly, I'd have all my firearm paperwork with me, to show everything is legal, and just try and work it out with the owner up front. That's the best way to do it in my oppinion. Otherwise you may be screwed (not sure your personal situation) because I'm pretty sure it's illegal to store them in a storage unit, and unless you have someone you could trust to hold onto that stuff who is all legal, then you're probably going to have to sell of what you have, I imagine.

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So assuming that it is legal and enforceable for the landlord to include such a clause, is there any possibility of criminal liability or would it just be the possibility of eviction?

 

 

I'd bet that if something happened that caused a round to be fired and damage to property or person was done, you'd have a huge legal battle on your hand. If I were a lawyer and the landlord caught you with a firearm because of a scenario like I just mentioned and you signed a lease agreement that forbid firearms, I'd take that case in a second and ruin your life because of it. You may never spend any jail time because all you did was "break a lease agreement", however I'd have your *ss and money tied up in court fees to the point where you'd hope that all you had to do was spend time in jail.

 

Even if you disount all of what I just said, why the lack or morality in knowingly breading a lease agreement that you signed and agreed to? I just don't get it. It's the typical "right of entitlement" that everyone seems to have nowadays. WTF!

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Haha, this thread has me laughing. I imagine the clause was put in with the hopes that it would deter criminals, and drug dealers from moving in.

 

Of course, as is always the case, it merely creates a sticky situation for the legal gun owner, since only a person who follows the law gives a darn what a renter's agreement says.

 

Honestly, I'd have all my firearm paperwork with me, to show everything is legal, and just try and work it out with the owner up front. That's the best way to do it in my oppinion. Otherwise you may be screwed (not sure your personal situation) because I'm pretty sure it's illegal to store them in a storage unit, and unless you have someone you could trust to hold onto that stuff who is all legal, then you're probably going to have to sell of what you have, I imagine.

 

 

... and apparently several folks here who may claim to be law abiding citizens might disagree.

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I'd bet that if something happened that caused a round to be fired and damage to property or person was done, you'd have a huge legal battle on your hand. If I were a lawyer and the landlord caught you with a firearm because of a scenario like I just mentioned and you signed a lease agreement that forbid firearms, I'd take that case in a second and ruin your life because of it. You may never spend any jail time because all you did was "break a lease agreement", however I'd have your *ss and money tied up in court fees to the point where you'd hope that all you had to do was spend time in jail.

 

Even if you disount all of what I just said, why the lack or morality in knowingly breading a lease agreement that you signed and agreed to? I just don't get it. It's the typical "right of entitlement" that everyone seems to have nowadays. WTF!

 

He has a point, and (God forbid) if a neighbor's apartment caught fire, and spread to yours, they could find it. OR even worse, if there WAS a shooting in the area or something, and the police found you had guns (even if legal) the fact that you didn't disclose that to your landlord would look suspicious. Of course, I highly doubt you would do anything like that, BUT, as I'm sure you'd agree, such a situation would be a huge pain in the a** to deal with.

 

Best thing is just to be upfront with it in my oppinion, we NJ gun owners shouldn't be ashamed of practicing our rights, even if the state tries to make us feel that way. We can show we are different from the riff-raff by being upfront, law-abiding, and honest in situations such as this.

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If I were dealing illegal guns out of the appartment that would be criminal

 

If I were housing all my LEGAL guns in my apartment after I signed a renters agreement saying I wouldnt, that would be a breach of contract.

 

Is the popo going to come and arrest you if you had a cat in the appartment after you signed a no pets agreement? I dont think so!

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If I were dealing illegal guns out of the appartment that would be criminal

 

If I were housing all my LEGAL guns in my apartment after I signed a renters agreement saying I wouldnt, that would be a breach of contract.

 

Is the popo going to come and arrest you if you had a cat in the appartment after you signed a no pets agreement? I dont think so!

 

Haha, well NJ hasn't yet cracked down on legal cat ownership, but give them time haha. I think that, as a symptom of the anti-gun paranoia in this state, which we as gun owners know all too well, it makes sense that we'd worry about the worse case scenario that it could cause legal trouble. Sure they probably couldn't convict someone in this situation for anything, HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that NJ wouldn't try, and cause you a lot of legal headaches in the process.

 

just my $0.02

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How did you come to the conclusion that it's unlikely they can enforce it?

 

How did you come to the conclusion that rental laws in NJ are very renter friendly?

 

Eviction laws in NJ are pretty standard in terms of ability to evict someone.

 

True, it may take up to 10 months to get a tenant out, but only if the tenant is VERY savvy and able to prove to the court that they're completely unable to find other housing. But, even if the court grants a tenant the relief of delaying physical eviction, the court can only do that so long as the tenant pays the rent as it comes due (FL's laws are actually more tenant friendly, the tenant can avoid paying rent and still maintain possession--I've seen it done).

 

If you're a financially-fit person that isn't willing to lie to the court, and the grounds for eviction is your breaking the rules of the lease, then your eviction will likely take 4 months...MAX.

 

You can risk it, or you can talk to them, and decide from there. Either way, I would NOT rely on the clause being "unenforceable."

 

How did you come to the conclusion they could enforce it?

How did you come to the conclusion renter's rights weren't friendly to the renter?

 

Whether the laws are "standard" doesn't mean jack schitt. If you call being able to evict someone after 4 months + legal expenses "lessor friendly" I guess that is your opinion. I've seen it as well and I'm a landlord. Besides the fact that you missed the point of my post. How would they even know? And if they did, you're not getting thrown out on the street. Even if the worst case scenario befell the OP, 4 months (using your lessor friendly number) is plenty of time to find a new apartment.

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My non lawyer opinion is that either way its uninforcable as contracts that violate civil rights tend to be. In fact I think that the property owner could potentially be in violation of the law. Especially if its something like a HOA, condo association or apartment complex under management.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241

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I can't imagine a criminal liability for breaking a rental agreement. Obviously the worst case scenario would be an eviction notice. Aside from the management company entering your apartment and searching the place, how would they know you had firearms?

 

Which is illegal. A landlord can not enter your leased residence without permission.

They can not drop by for an impromptu inspection, etc without your consent. Well, they can stop by, but you don't have to let them in and if they enter without you, it is illegal..

 

if my landlord entered my apt without my consent, I could have him arrested for trespassing (yes even tho he owns the actual apt).

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