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JeremyP

Denied by the City of Paterson, Now what?

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Possibly the worst present I've ever gotten on my birthday. Today I received a certified letter from the Paterson PD stating I've been denied a FPID and Permit to Purchase because of "Public Health, Safety and Welfare" and "Other - Failure to provide required documents".

 

The required documents they must be referring to is an extra form they ask to be filled out, and notarized with a passport photo attached. I previously spoke to Detective Keith Rotsaert about this form (in between the time of my initial visit and my Morpho fingerprinting appointment, before actually submitting my application), and that I felt it violated 2C:58-3(f), handed him a copy of 2C:58-3 printed from the NJ State Legislature website with section 2C:58-3(f) highlighted which he read. He said OK, and that I didn't have to submit it. About a week and a half later when submitting my application, he remembered our previous conversation and accepted my paperwork and payment.

 

As for the "Public Health, Safety and Welfare" issue, I can only speculate, but I believe it could be because I applied for 2 P2Ps instead of just 1 and they might be trying to deny me for that as well. I know they can't limit the amount of permits applied for, but if they are requesting additional forms, they might not know that either. I can't imagine what else it could be.

 

The letter says I can appeal the disapproval in writing within 30 days to the Passaic County Superior Court.

 

At this point I'm not exactly sure what to do. Should I try and speak with the Chief and get this sorted out? City Council? Mayor? I wish I could hire a lawyer, but that is a costly option for something that shouldn't have been this difficult.

 

I've attached the additional form "required" by the City of Paterson to this post.

post-4847-0-99612300-1337790731_thumb.jpg

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Before looking at the picture I was curious as to why you would not submit a form, and thought it was kind of silly.

 

After reading the form, it is stating all of the same facts that the applications for FID and P2P do. The only difference is that you need to add a picture and get it notarized, which is a PITA. I would call the NJSP and ask for their advice.

 

Did you fill out the mental health release also?

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well, since the denial is made official by the PD, I think the first thing you do is write a letter of appeal before the 30 days are up. Contact NJ2AS and see if they are able to or are interested in intervening. Also, call the NJSP firearms division and explain what happened to you and that you were denied because Paterson requires additional forms that are not necessary.

 

Then, get a lawyer lined up who can represent you in case,God forbid, you have to go to county court over it.

 

I would also consider speaking with your councilman and the Mayor sine they are supposedly your local government representatives.

 

However, since the appeal has a 30 day expiration date. I would do that first!

 

You are not otherwise a prohibited person?

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well, since the denial is made official by the PD, I think the first thing you do is write a letter of appeal before the 30 days are up. Contact NJ2AS and see if they are able to or are interested in intervening. Also, call the NJSP firearms division and explain what happened to you and that you were denied because Paterson requires additional forms that are not necessary illegal.

 

Then, get a lawyer lined up who can represent you in case,God forbid, you have to go to county court over it.

 

I would also consider speaking with your councilman and the Mayor sine they are supposedly your local government representatives.

 

However, since the appeal has a 30 day expiration date. I would do that first!

 

You are not otherwise a prohibited person?

 

As for the public health safety and welfare, that is probably also a result of not giving them their illegal form and added requirements. They want you to do their job for them. The PD is supposed to conduct the investigation to ascertain all the facts they want you to stipulate too. This assumes that you have no criminal record or even something like a DUI (there are guidelines for when that becomes prohibitive also).

 

You don't need a lawyer, just show-up for your appeal with the same statute that you showed the PD - I think the judge will take it more seriously. This $hit has got to stop. Definitely contact the NJ2AS - the burden will still be on you, but they can give suggestions and opinions.

 

Good luck and keep us informed. This is a clear-cut violation of the statute.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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I would contact the chief to find out exactly why you were denied, so that you know what you're up against. Something may have turned up in your background check that you don't know about. Filing for (2) P2P is not a reason for denial. You need details so that you can appeal it properly. Contact NJ2AS as suggested once you feel you were unjustly denied.

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So you argued the system they have in place and told them they are violating your rights and refused to do it the way they want it done and your surprised you got denied? (Flame suit on)

 

Im not condoning what they did as right, but keep in mind your fighting a system that has so much red tape and bureaucratic BS that it could tie you up in court for years if you decided to proceed with an appeal. And even if it is proved that their extra form is illegal (and Im sure they ran this by a few lawyers first and got the ok on the form FWIW) what will you stand to gain after spending thousands on legal bills? A cash payout for violating your 2nd amendment rights? Not gonna happen, the best case scenario is they will have to give you your permit after dragging their feet for several months or years...Im speaking from experience of having tried to fight the system and can tell you what you should have done was played by their rules while in their house, got your permit and fire arms, then afterwards argued the fact that the form they required was illegal.

 

I understand your point, but all you did was tell people that are in charge, that they were doing it wrong, and now their basically punishing you for pissing them off and comming across as argumentative. I understand you wanting to fight the fight, but just be prepared for the consequences while doing so. You should have played by their rules then made an issue after you were free and clear.

 

i hope you stand up for your rights, they count on most people not pushing the issue any further, so when you rock the boat you will get hit with some waves and they will make up some back ground check BS to deny you...Good luck

 

FLAME SUIT ON!

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So you argued the system they have in place and told them they are violating your rights and refused to do it the way they want it done and your surprised you got denied? (Flame suit on)

 

Im not condoning what they did as right, but keep in mind your fighting a system that has so much red tape and bureaucratic BS that it could tie you up in court for years if you decided to proceed with an appeal. And even if it is proved that their extra form is illegal (and Im sure they ran this by a few lawyers first and got the ok on the form FWIW) what will you stand to gain after spending thousands on legal bills? A cash payout for violating your 2nd amendment rights? Not gonna happen, the best case scenario is they will have to give you your permit after dragging their feet for several months or years...Im speaking from experience of having tried to fight the system and can tell you what you should have done was played by their rules while in their house, got your permit and fire arms, then afterwards argued the fact that the form they required was illegal.

 

I understand your point, but all you did was tell people that are in charge, that they were doing it wrong, and now their basically punishing you for pissing them off and comming across as argumentative. I understand you wanting to fight the fight, but just be prepared for the consequences while doing so. You should have played by their rules then made an issue after you were free and clear.

 

i hope you stand up for your rights, they count on most people not pushing the issue any further, so when you rock the boat you will get hit with some waves and they will make up some back ground check BS to deny you...Good luck

 

FLAME SUIT ON!

 

Flame suit is a good idea.

I suggest that YOU are exactly what is wrong with New Jersey gun owners. If we all started making noise and trouble for those in charge, they would have to give us our rights. Meekly accepting bureaucratic horseshit is what hurts all of us.

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Flame suit is a good idea.

I suggest that YOU are exactly what is wrong with New Jersey gun owners. If we all started making noise and trouble for those in charge, they would have to give us our rights. Meekly accepting bureaucratic horseshit is what hurts all of us.

 

Oh lord, why did Maks get rid of the +1 button?

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So you argued the system they have in place and told them they are violating your rights and refused to do it the way they want it done and your surprised you got denied? (Flame suit on)

 

Im not condoning what they did as right, but keep in mind your fighting a system that has so much red tape and bureaucratic BS that it could tie you up in court for years if you decided to proceed with an appeal. And even if it is proved that their extra form is illegal (and Im sure they ran this by a few lawyers first and got the ok on the form FWIW) what will you stand to gain after spending thousands on legal bills? A cash payout for violating your 2nd amendment rights? Not gonna happen, the best case scenario is they will have to give you your permit after dragging their feet for several months or years...Im speaking from experience of having tried to fight the system and can tell you what you should have done was played by their rules while in their house, got your permit and fire arms, then afterwards argued the fact that the form they required was illegal.

 

I understand your point, but all you did was tell people that are in charge, that they were doing it wrong, and now their basically punishing you for pissing them off and comming across as argumentative. I understand you wanting to fight the fight, but just be prepared for the consequences while doing so. You should have played by their rules then made an issue after you were free and clear.

 

i hope you stand up for your rights, they count on most people not pushing the issue any further, so when you rock the boat you will get hit with some waves and they will make up some back ground check BS to deny you...Good luck

 

FLAME SUIT ON!

You're Fuc-ing with us.....right?. I find it unlikely that a active duty LEO that claims all that you do can find the time in his day to post an average of 27 posts/day. Joined May 16'th and already have over 180 posts?the majority of which is composed to piss off gun enthusiast with just enough giveback to keep it plausible. You sir don't need a flame suit just another sthick and another public forum to mess with..... I for one am not fooled.

 

 

Folks don't feed the Troll.

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So you argued the system they have in place and told them they are violating your rights and refused to do it the way they want it done and your surprised you got denied? (Flame suit on)

 

Im not condoning what they did as right, but keep in mind your fighting a system that has so much red tape and bureaucratic BS that it could tie you up in court for years if you decided to proceed with an appeal. And even if it is proved that their extra form is illegal (and Im sure they ran this by a few lawyers first and got the ok on the form FWIW) what will you stand to gain after spending thousands on legal bills? A cash payout for violating your 2nd amendment rights? Not gonna happen, the best case scenario is they will have to give you your permit after dragging their feet for several months or years...Im speaking from experience of having tried to fight the system and can tell you what you should have done was played by their rules while in their house, got your permit and fire arms, then afterwards argued the fact that the form they required was illegal.

 

I understand your point, but all you did was tell people that are in charge, that they were doing it wrong, and now their basically punishing you for pissing them off and comming across as argumentative. I understand you wanting to fight the fight, but just be prepared for the consequences while doing so. You should have played by their rules then made an issue after you were free and clear.

 

i hope you stand up for your rights, they count on most people not pushing the issue any further, so when you rock the boat you will get hit with some waves and they will make up some back ground check BS to deny you...Good luck

 

FLAME SUIT ON!

 

Jules, it's not a flame war. You do realize that they're illegally requiring additional paperwork which is not allowed by state law. It's basically an attempt to make the process more arduous, and to discourage ownership.

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If I have to follow the law, they have to follow the laws too.

 

In that case, I say fight it, but don't fight it alone. NJ2AS was designed for this sort of thing.

 

Now that being said, this is the internet, I don't know you, and I've never met you in person. If there is anything in your background that could have come up, I would fess up to that now.

 

Else, fight. If Patterson was correct and you are not a prohibited person, don't worry about the money for a lawyer. The community has a way of coming together on stuff like this. PM me.

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Flame suit is a good idea.

I suggest that YOU are exactly what is wrong with New Jersey gun owners. If we all started making noise and trouble for those in charge, they would have to give us our rights. Meekly accepting bureaucratic horseshit is what hurts all of us.

 

This

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Possibly the worst present I've ever gotten on my birthday. Today I received a certified letter from the Paterson PD stating I've been denied a FPID and Permit to Purchase because of "Public Health, Safety and Welfare" and "Other - Failure to provide required documents".

 

The required documents they must be referring to is an extra form they ask to be filled out, and notarized with a passport photo attached. I previously spoke to Detective Keith Rotsaert about this form (in between the time of my initial visit and my Morpho fingerprinting appointment, before actually submitting my application), and that I felt it violated 2C:58-3(f), handed him a copy of 2C:58-3 printed from the NJ State Legislature website with section 2C:58-3(f) highlighted which he read. He said OK, and that I didn't have to submit it. About a week and a half later when submitting my application, he remembered our previous conversation and accepted my paperwork and payment.

 

As for the "Public Health, Safety and Welfare" issue, I can only speculate, but I believe it could be because I applied for 2 P2Ps instead of just 1 and they might be trying to deny me for that as well. I know they can't limit the amount of permits applied for, but if they are requesting additional forms, they might not know that either. I can't imagine what else it could be.

 

The letter says I can appeal the disapproval in writing within 30 days to the Passaic County Superior Court.

 

At this point I'm not exactly sure what to do. Should I try and speak with the Chief and get this sorted out? City Council? Mayor? I wish I could hire a lawyer, but that is a costly option for something that shouldn't have been this difficult.

 

I've attached the additional form "required" by the City of Paterson to this post.

 

Sounds like you pissed them off, so now they are going to piss you off. I would have just filled out the form they asked for. I mean think about this, you have to submit your finger prints which is now registered in the FBI database. What was the big deal to fill out a simple form with your pictuure and get it notorized. I wonder if you will ever get to own a gun anytime soon. Good luck.

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I understand your point, but all you did was tell people that are in charge, that they were doing it wrong, and now their basically punishing you for pissing them off and comming across as argumentative You should have played by their rules then made an issue after you were free and clear.

 

Yep, that is what he should have done. Played by the rules of those who break the law because they have authority. That is the right thing!

 

i hope you stand up for your rights, they count on most people not pushing the issue any further, so when you rock the boat you will get hit with some waves and they will make up some back ground check BS to deny you...Good luck

 

 

You do not. You are a liar. Your very post (heck the same sentence!) proves this.

 

 

 

 

i hope you stand up for your rights...

 

yet in the same sentence...

 

{we} count on most people not pushing the issue any further,

 

and even before

 

You should have played by their rules

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The troll is fed and happy.

Unfortunately so...... some of us has yet to learn that to starve an attention seeker is simply not to give them any but I fear there are others that feels the need to argue in order to confirm they are indeed alive.

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Jules is correct to a certain degree. You should not be surprised that the PD violated your rights for refusing to comply with their illegal requirement.

 

Recommending to just go along to get along? That's a question for the OP, and depends on how inclined he is to fight for what is right in this case. We all choose our battles. If nobody stands up then this shit will continue.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The best and most effective team we have on our side is the NJ2AS. Please join and support them.

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But wasn't it the NJSP FIU's advice; if your local PD asks for extra paperwork not required by law, to get denied on purpose. Then they can intervene, I recall one of the moderators saying this awhille ago.

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First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

-Martin Niemöller, a prominent Protestant pastor who opposed the Nazi regime. He spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. Germany, 1937

 

Maybe you have to be a Jew like me to fully understand why fighting is important:

 

None of us here are risking jail time. We are not risking deportation. We are not risking the loss of our homes or families. We are not risking our lives, fortunes and sacred honor. All that we are risking is the loss of some time and maybe a little bit of money. Odds are the money you will spend on a lawyer would equate to roughly one year of shooting if you go every other weekend. It's a pittance in the big scheme of things.

 

I spent seven hours researching and developing my Excel spread sheet that proved that we could (theoretically) have close to enough votes to put a right to bear arms in a ballot question. I still have to do more research over the past three elections to find districts that have close election fights so that we can target a campaign to the right Democratic legislatures. Then I have to throw this all into a presentation for NJ2AS and develop a theoretical strategy. I have to do all of this by the 7th of June.

 

I'm going to miss my kids little league games, putting them to bed, watching a movie with them, and playing catch. And I have to do all of this while holding down a job and trying to be a husband and father. Is it easier to roll over and hope someone else fights? Of course it is, but I've made my choice.

 

I made it when Assemblyman Greenwald tried to take a way my 15 round magazines and I took a day off of work, went to his office in Voorhees and made my case. I don't know if it helped, but we still have 15 round magazines today. My only regret is that it took that magazine ban to wake me up. What could I have done if I had woken up sooner?

 

I want to be able to look my son in the eye and tell him that I did everything I could. I fought.

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First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

-Martin Niemöller, a prominent Protestant pastor who opposed the Nazi regime. He spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. Germany, 1937

 

Maybe you have to be a Jew like me to fully understand why fighting is important:

 

None of us here are risking jail time. We are not risking deportation. We are not risking the loss of our homes or families. We are not risking our lives, fortunes and sacred honor. All that we are risking is the loss of some time and maybe a little bit of money. Odds are the money you will spend on a lawyer would equate to roughly one year of shooting if you go every other weekend. It's a pittance in the big scheme of things.

 

I spent seven hours researching and developing my Excel spread sheet that proved that we could (theoretically) have close to enough votes to put a right to bear arms in a ballot question. I still have to do more research over the past three elections to find districts that have close election fights so that we can target a campaign to the right Democratic legislatures. Then I have to throw this all into a presentation for NJ2AS and develop a theoretical strategy. I have to do all of this by the 7th of June.

 

I'm going to miss my kids little league games, putting them to bed, watching a movie with them, and playing catch. And I have to do all of this while holding down a job and trying to be a husband and father. Is it easier to roll over and hope someone else fights? Of course it is, but I've made my choice.

 

I made it when Assemblyman Greenwald tried to take a way my 15 round magazines and I took a day off of work, went to his office in Voorhees and made my case. I don't know if it helped, but we still have 15 round magazines today. My only regret is that it took that magazine ban to wake me up. What could I have done if I had woken up sooner?

 

I want to be able to look my son in the eye and tell him that I did everything I could. I fought.

 

+1

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