Denied by the City of Paterson, Now what?

[Rysdad 5]

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them. If 10,000 people apply for permits in Patterson and there is 1 or 2 detectives assigned to the unit that processes them, you do the math. The whole system is too overwhelming to the individual departments who really don't even want to deal with this crap anymore..

 

I agree with what you said about 95%. The only mistake was when you said "Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them." This whole thread is about the PD not following the rules. I do agree that the politicians carry most of the blame.

[Rysdad 5]

Yes, yes I actually was.

 

Phew, for a minute there I thought you really were insane. Good to know you aren't.

[Justjules 0]

What rule did the politicians create that says the OP can only have one permit? What rule says they can require more forms than the LAW says is needed? What I see here is a PD making up their own rules.

Who created The NEED for an individual permit for each handgun,1 gun a month rule, assault weapons ban and the Evil features? The local PD's have that much power? Most likely someone from the city law department required the additional paperwork to be processed at the request of the Mayor or city council. Besides, what is the big deal about a photo to coincide with the person filing the permit? I think your photo should be on your FID card instead of your fingerprint anyhow, cause the FFL dealers ask for a photo ID like your DL also. (you guys gonna complain about that too?)

[Justjules 0]

I agree with what you said about 95%. The only mistake was when you said "Blame it on the politicians they created the rules, the PD's just follow them." This whole thread is about the PD not following the rules. I do agree that the politicians carry most of the blame.

Im trying to tell you from an insiders point of view, the PD most likely would not

1) take it upon themselves to create extra paperwork for themselves

2) do so without the approval of the city law department (city lawyers or city council)

[Justjules 0]

Phew, for a minute there I thought you really were insane. Good to know you aren't.

 

Im an A$$hole but not insane man..

[specopsscout 26]

No money = no lawyer = no lawsuit = forced to accept the 9 or 20 week wait cause by fools and criminals that pretend to represent us.

 

I feel your pain, but such is the position of most folks these days...then again...I might just be showing my naivety again...

[Rysdad 5]

Jules, how do you feel about gun registries?

I happen to feel that no LEA should ever be able to look in their files and see that I, a law abiding citizen, own a handgun.

I also feel that my right to bear arms should not be inringed. All this stuff we are talking about is infringing on my rights. I will never accept even what you consider a little thing if it goes in the direction of infringing on my rights. Don't you agree with me?

[joshroz2 4]

bro you forgot your flame suit

[PK90 3,570]

Who created The NEED for an individual permit for each handgun,1 gun a month rule, assault weapons ban and the Evil features? The local PD's have that much power? Most likely someone from the city law department required the additional paperwork to be processed at the request of the Mayor or city council. Besides, what is the big deal about a photo to coincide with the person filing the permit? I think your photo should be on your FID card anyhow, cause the FFL dealers ask for a photo ID like your DL also. (you guys gonna complain about that too?)

 

I thought this discussion was about the OP's situation and not the entire state and it's history. The laws are what they are. The PD is making up their own rules. Photos, credit checks, employer references, notarized reference letters, etc. Where does it end?

 

A Government issued photo ID should be the ONLY required document when acquiring a firearm. The permit process is a waste of time and man hours for everyone when a simple NICS check does everything and more, than a PD can do. Ask Sgt. Mundorf of the NJSP Firearms Unit. That was straight from his lips.

[joshroz2 4]

How does this example have anything to do with politicians? This is a specific Police Dept requirement. It was certainly drawn up by the PD and not the city.

[Rysdad 5]

I feel your pain, but such is the position of most folks these days...then again...I might just be showing my naivety again...

 

Thanks, that naivety comment got to you huh? didn't mean anything personal by it. Have a good night. I am off to bed.

[Justjules 0]

Jules, how do you feel about gun registries?

I happen to feel that no LEA should ever be able to look in their files and see that I, a law abiding citizen, own a handgun.

I also feel that my right to bear arms should not be inringed. All this stuff we are talking about is infringing on my rights. I will never accept even what you consider a little thing if it goes in the direction of infringing on my rights. Don't you agree with me?

Not entirely...Me being a cop, I want to know if the person I have to deal with has the potential to end my life if they choose to do so. Rights being infringed I agree, but there are different levels of interpretation of "bearing arms". Should a civilian be able to own a grenade or rocket launcher under the right to bear arms? Absolutely not IMO. Should a civilian be allowed to have a flash suppressor or bayonete lug? sure, why not..

Should concealed carry be allowed in NJ? I personally want to know if someone has a gun on them or not, so if a carry provision was introduced, it should be an exposed carry provision.

[Rysdad 5]

I thought this discussion was about the OP's situation and not the entire state and it's history. The laws are what they are. The PD is making up their own rules. Photos, credit checks, employer references, notarized reference letters, etc. Where does it end?

 

A Government issued photo ID should be the ONLY required document when acquiring a firearm. The permit process is a waste of time and man hours for everyone when a simple NICS check does everything and more, than a PD can do. Ask Sgt. Mundorf of the NJSP Firearms Unit. That was straight from his lips.

 

+1

[Justjules 0]

I thought this discussion was about the OP's situation and not the entire state and it's history. The laws are what they are. The PD is making up their own rules. Photos, credit checks, employer references, notarized reference letters, etc. Where does it end?

 

You're assuming the PD is. Im telling you the likely scenario from an insiders point of view, but you choose to ignore it. The politicians run the police departments when it all comes down to it.

A Government issued photo ID should be the ONLY required document when acquiring a firearm. The permit process is a waste of time and man hours for everyone when a simple NICS check does everything and more, than a PD can do. Ask Sgt. Mundorf of the NJSP Firearms Unit. That was straight from his lips.

 

I agree with you on this,it is a big waste of everyone's time. Do a little research and find out which politician of campaign contribution owns Morphius the company that is contracted to do the prints via live scan.

[Rysdad 5]

Not entirely...Me being a cop, I want to know if the person I have to deal with has the potential to end my life if they choose to do so. Rights being infringed I agree, but there are different levels of interpretation of "bearing arms". Should a civilian be able to own a grenade or rocket launcher under the right to bear arms? Absolutely not IMO. Should a civilian be allowed to have a flash suppressor or bayonete lug? sure, why not..

Should concealed carry be allowed in NJ? I personally want to know if someone has a gun on them or not, so if a carry provision was introduced, it should be an exposed carry provision.

 

ok. when you have a criminal that gets his gun in Camden on the street how do you know? HE is the one you need to be worried or concerned about. His gun will not show up in any registry. This process we are talking about does not affect him. You do NOT have to worry about me, the law abiding citizen. It is a simple fact. You or any other cop has never been attacked or endangered by a "law abiding citizen". Most people on the antigun side are dillusional about what their rules are creating. ALl the others are just idealogues.

[Justjules 0]

ok. when you have a criminal that gets his gun in Camden on the street how do you know? HE is the one you need to be worried or concerned about. His gun will not show up in any registry. This process we are talking about does not affect him. You do NOT have to worry about me, the law abiding citizen. It is a simple fact. You or any other cop has never been attacked or endangered by a "law abiding citizen". Most people on the antigun side are dillusional about what their rules are creating. ALl the others are just idealogues.

Right, so if i have to worry about the criminals, why would i want to have to worry about everyone else around me carrying a gun too? And FYI I have been attacked by people who were law abiding citizens who got drunk or mad at their wife or had a bad day. but thats a different discussion and i dont feel like getting into it right now.I have my opinions and you can have yours.

 

BTW how do you think the criminals get their guns? Either stolen or purchased legally in states that have zero laws about buying weapons, then they bring them up here to NJ. There is no shortage of them.

[joshroz2 4]

The politicians do not run the police departments in any way. That is a total cop out. (Get it)

justjules you have made so many posts blaming everyone but yourself.

To be the enforcer of illegal or immoral rules or laws is much worse than to be the drafter of those laws.

You don't get off by saying your just doing what your told.

[specopsscout 26]

Not entirely...Me being a cop, I want to know if the person I have to deal with has the potential to end my life if they choose to do so. Rights being infringed I agree, but there are different levels of interpretation of "bearing arms". Should a civilian be able to own a grenade or rocket launcher under the right to bear arms? Absolutely not IMO. Should a civilian be allowed to have a flash suppressor or bayonete lug? sure, why not..

Should concealed carry be allowed in NJ? I personally want to know if someone has a gun on them or not, so if a carry provision was introduced, it should be an exposed carry provision.

 

Now on this, I respectfully disagree...I think everyone should have access to Class Three. I think the GCA is BS, much less the BS that is the NJ AWB, and am not personally a fan of open carry. I fully support an individual's right to concealed carry, and would love to see the law changed to reflect that. The Second is not about hunting, and to a lesser extent, not just about personal defense. It has much broader and much more important purposes...

 

As to how it would impact you professionally? Not at all, or at least, it shouldn't...I'm of the mind that if your training department is doing thier job, you are already doing it, probably subconciously...Someone once said, "be polite, be professional and have a plan to kill everyone you meet." It may seem a bit extreme to the uninitiated, but the basic premise is that anyone could have the potential to kill you. The person with the unregistered or unliscensed or stolen gun, is just much more likely to be the one to try. You should never base your level of awareness on the basic information you receive on the call, like "there is a firearm at the residence". Make it easy. There is a firearm at every residence, in every car, on every pedestrian you speak with. Every single solitary call should put you on alert, as the difference between a nothing call and a deadly force event can be tenths of a second. "Be polite, be professional and hae a plan to kill every person you meet."

[Justjules 0]

The politicians do not run the police departments in any way. That is a total cop out. (Get it)

justjules you have made so many posts blaming everyone but yourself.

To be the enforcer of illegal or immoral rules or laws is much worse than to be the drafter of those laws.

You don't get off by saying your just doing what your told.

 

I give up...think what you want, do it your way..Your right Im wrong..Have a nice day sir.

[Soju 153]

How does this example have anything to do with politicians? This is a specific Police Dept requirement. It was certainly drawn up by the PD and not the city.

 

It doesn't, but Jules is a cop and wants to deflect attention from those like in his profession that violate the laws they swore to uphold. He can't be reasoned with, so he avoids, deflects, makes quips and insults others.

[Justjules 0]

Now on this, I respectfully disagree...I think everyone should have access to Class Three. I think the GCA is BS, much less the BS that is the NJ AWB, and am not personally a fan of open carry. I fully support an individual's right to concealed carry, and would love to see the law changed to reflect that. The Second is not about hunting, and to a lesser extent, not just about personal defense. It has much broader and much more important purposes...

So you feel there is not line to draw on what type of weapons a civilian can own? So if your neighbor set up an intercontinental ballistic missile on their front lawn, you would be cool with that? Jokes aside, I personally think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

[Justjules 0]

It doesn't, but Jules is a cop and wants to deflect attention from those like in his profession that violate the laws they swore to uphold. He can't be reasoned with, so he avoids, deflects, makes quips and insults others.

Or could it be he speaks from experience and insider knowledge that your not privileged to? no..no...that couldnt be it..Not at all cause I have an "elitist agenda" right?

[Soju 153]

Wouldn't surprise me. But like I said, avoid and deflect, which you are doing again.

 

So let me get this straight.

 

According to you

 

1. The police departments are run by politicians.

2. The police follow the rules.

3. Politicians are responsible for these illegal things that are taken place.

 

So when the police violate the law, because of politicians, they are actually following the law, and should take no responsibility for their actions?

 

Got it.

 

Yep, no agenda!

 

Edited to add the actual quotes where he said those 3 things.

 

1.

The politicians run the police departments when it all comes down to it.

2.

the PD's just follow them.

3.

Blame it on the politicians they created the rules...Most likely someone from the city law department required the additional paperwork to be processed at the request of the Mayor or city council.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Bonesinium

[specopsscout 26]

So you feel there is not line to draw on what type of weapons a civilian can own? So if your neighbor set up an intercontinental ballistic missile on their front lawn, you would be cool with that? Jokes aside, I personally think there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

 

As long as he made it look presentable with some strategically placed shrubbery ...

Bad guys are always going to be holding. I'd like to see good guys given every fighting chance. Having to follow the law shouldn't mean be handicapped by it. Class Threes are already legal in something like forty two states. The percentage of legal Class Three weapons that are actually used in a crime are measured into something like a hundreth of one percent...

So, no Brother, I'm not worried about the good guy with his CCW getting drunk and having an arguement with his wife...I'm much more concerned about the three or four parasites that are waiting to take his car, and maybe his and his wife's life, when the couple stumbles out of the bar :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: ...

[joshroz2 4]

Or could it be he speaks from experience and insider knowledge that your not privileged to? no..no...that couldnt be it..Not at all cause I have an "elitist agenda" right?

 

I understand following orders and if your chain of command involves politicians it must suck; but when your talking about an illegal order or an extra-legal requirement you have the right and a duty to disregard and not to enforce that requirement.

[joshroz2 4]

As long as he made it look presentable with some strategically placed shrubbery ...

Bad guys are always going to be holding. I'd like to see good guys given every fighting chance. Having to follow the law shouldn't mean be handicapped by it. Class Threes are already legal in something like forty two states. The percentage of legal Class Three weapons that are actually used in a crime are measured into something like hundreth of one percent...

So, no Brother, I'm not worried about the good guy with his CCW getting drunk and having an arguement with his wife...I'm much more concerned about the three or four parasites that are waiting to take his car, and maybe his and his wife's life, when the couple stumbles out of the bar :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: ...

 

Needs a designated CCWer, don't drink and CCW.

[PK90 3,570]

Nice use of smilies.

[specopsscout 26]

Politicians may not specifically run a given department, though in many locals, the Governor, Mayor, DA, is considered the CLEO. Even in places where he isn't like Trenton for example, the person he places in charge, be it a DIrector or Commissioner, you know, the one who is beholden to him, does. Who is holding the purse strings? Police Departments do not make the laws. They administer and at times, enforce the law. Why is something so painfully obvious a point of contention...

[specopsscout 26]

Needs a designated CCWer, don't drink and CCW.

 

Agreed. Bad example. It's late...

[H.M. Murdock 0]

OP, as a sidenote you should submit a personal records request thru the state police.. It's suprisingly easy nowadays:

 

Go to https://www.bioappli...nj/Default.aspx, fill out your info and pay the $41, schedule an appointment to get your prints done at Halsey St in Newark, fill out NJ form NJAPS2 with the same info you filled out online (http://www.nj.gov/nj...niversforma.pdf) and bring it with you to the appointment. You should have a latter back in a week or two either saying you have no criminal record in NJ or you have one and the details will be attached.

 

Don't bother doing a federal request unless you lived out of of state or otherwise have a federal paperwork trail.

 

Who knows, maybe someone used your name at booking or otherwise stole your identity. Or maybe there is something you did a long time ago that you forgot about.

 

Of course you probably got denied for the reasons being discussed in the thread but it's important to do your own homework before someone checks you out

 

And another vote for fighting the system *after* you take delivery of your FID and a few pistol permits first