Legality of using wife's pistol

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I'm having a hard time with this one.

 

My wife has a permit to purchse, FID, the whole magilla. I'm going to buy her a gun. Rather, "she's" going to buy the gun using her permit. I just get to pay for it. Yay me.

 

I've read, to the best of my ability, the laws on this subject, and as best I can tell, and can't determine if I would be running afoul of those laws if I were to bring and use that gun to the range without her being present.

 

I've spoken to different Law Enforcemtn friends and received different advice.

 

One says its perfectly OK.

 

The other says no.

 

My gun in the gun shop says the person who "lends" you the gun must be withen your immediate proximity (earshot).

 

To futher complicate the issue, I can't even fathom a situation when I'd be challenged and have to prove ownerhship of the gun.

 

It will be transported in a hard case locked in the trunk seperate from ammo, just like it should be.

 

The whole thing baffles me.

[tj462nj 32]

if the owner od the gun is not with you, you are both in violation, its considered an illegal transfer

[Malsua 1,422]

It would be an illegal transfer for you to take the gun to the range.

 

In NJ, when a gun goes from one person to the next, it's a transfer. There are two types of transfers. Temporary and Permanent. There are very specific rules mapped out as to which is which. Temporary transfers only apply at ranges and gun shops(and hunting for minors). The transfers at a range require that the owner be present.

 

As to proving you own the gun, there's very little chance of it. The issue is that the risk is not zero.

[woodentoe 14]

The issue is that the permit shows her as the owner. There is a concern that by you being in possession, you've conducted an illegal transfer.

 

I'm not a cop, lawyer, or judge. But, isn't there some recognition under the law that because you're married, your possessions are community property?

 

Has this ever been hashed out in court?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Regardless of if this has been hashed out in court, or if anyone has ever been arrested for this, or the chances of getting caught even if you did. It's the question of you know the law, you have read the law, you have been told about the law and the only question you need to ask yourself, do you feel lucky, well do ya?? (to be the potential test dummy for this)

[Malsua 1,422]

. But, isn't there some recognition under the law that because you're married, your possessions are community property?

 

 

While a spouse may have a financial interest in a firearm, that does not mean they have the right to take possession of it.

 

When it comes to guns, the law does not differentiate based on your relationship to the other person.

[johnp 45]

Regardless of if this has been hashed out in court, or if anyone has ever been arrested for this, or the chances of getting caught even if you did. It's the question of you know the law, you have read the law, you have been told about the law and the only question you need to ask yourself, do you feel lucky, well do ya?? (to be the potential test dummy for this)

 

Out of curiosity, has anybody on here every had any of their firearms 'run' through the system by a cop during a routine traffic stop, to ensure that they were the legal owner?

[Sandy 44]

My husband and I have a collection of handguns ..we only share when we are together at the range or in training together as per the law.

 

It is annoying , yes. Technically if we both like the same gun we have to buy double if we want to go to the range alone with it ever.

 

I'm sure this is something that would only come up if the spouse in question used it in the commission of a crime ( wife lends her legally acquired pistol to her husband who is a FID holder but deep down inside is a bad person and he goes haywire and robs a store rather than going to the range like he said) ..or God forbid , there is some kind of accident at the range while a spouse is using the pistol without the owner spouse being present. Or , if you get rear ended and your range bag goes spilling across the road ...the police pick it up and when it comes time to get them back it turns out they were not exactly yours . That sort of thing could cause exposure .

 

Personally , I would not risk it.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

To futher complicate the issue, I can't even fathom a situation when I'd be challenged and have to prove ownerhship of the gun.

 

That's probably true of most laws in general, and of gun laws in particular: The risk of getting caught is slim, but the consequences for doing so are so dire, that's it's not worth chancing it.

 

I had not given it much thought, but that is a rather bizarre glitch in the laws, that possessions of spouses are generally regarded as commonly owned, yet not so for firearms. Anyone know if that's true everywhere, or just here in PRNJ?

 

Also, is the situation any different for long guns?

[Soju 153]

There was a nice long discussion on this very subject a while back. Of course this is where the law is both confusing, contradicting, and asinine. You should be able to legally use it, as the law says so. However a different portion of the law makes the transfer illegal. However even though the transfer is illegal, it still is not clear considering the possession is apparently legal on both ends of the transfer. So somehow, you have broken the law, in a period of time that only exists in theory and on paper. This period of limbo is what makes you a criminal.

 

Does any of what I wrote make much sense? If it doesn't, then there you go. Welcome to trying to decipher NJ law.

 

Found the other threads.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28889-spouse-hold-gun-in-house/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/30888-family-members-can-apparently-use-other-family-members-guns-in-home-self-defense

[woodentoe 14]

I've read the threads when they were initially put forth. However, it still seems to me that all personal property acquired during a marriage is 'marital property', according to NJ law. The firearm transfer law doesn't specify that it supersedes NJ property law. Wouldn't it have to? Since I signed a binding contract with my wife when we married that creates shared assets and liabilities, why are firearms distinct in this area?

 

I'm not suggesting that the law isn't vague and sounds like a bit of a trap. But, rather I'm pointing out the illogical nature of it. How can we be sure that we're not conflating the letter of the law to restrict ourselves more than we are bound to? (i.e., the notion that there is a duty to retreat in your home...which there isn't)

[Soju 153]

 

I'm not suggesting that the law isn't vague and sounds like a bit of a trap. But, rather I'm pointing out the illogical nature of it. How can we be sure that we're not conflating the letter of the law to restrict ourselves more than we are bound to?

 

How can we be sure? Is that rhetoric! Haha.

 

You can't be. That would be impossible with the current laws, and the way the judicial system works.

[Dan 177]

IANAL, IMO:

 

You cannot under any circumstances take her HG to the range without taking your wife along with it. The issue here isn't possession, its is the transfer ... aka how you got the gun in the first place to take it to the range. There is no "joint ownership" of firearms in NJ AFAIK. If you die, there are provisions in the statutes for the guns to be legally transferred to your spouse along with some rules and conditions that must be followed.

 

Since all HG's purchased in NJ are forcibly (not able to opt out) registered as part of the pistol purchase permit process, it is very easy for LE to find out that you are not the registered owner of the said HG. Thus by inference, you would have had to obtain the HG illegally in order to take it to the range. I'm not going to go into the argument of "what are the odds of getting in trouble", as that is irrelevant. I don't subscribe to the "it isn't illegal unless you are caught" school of thought.

[siderman 1,137]

curious- who told you its ok?

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

curious- who told you its ok?

A friend of mine who is in Law Enforcement.

[Soju 153]

 

 

Since all HG's purchased in NJ are forcibly (not able to opt out) registered as part of the pistol purchase permit process, it is very easy for LE to find out that you are not the registered owner of the said HG. Thus by inference, you would have had to obtain the HG illegally in order to take it to the range. I'm not going to go into the argument of "what are the odds of getting in trouble", as that is irrelevant. I don't subscribe to the "it isn't illegal unless you are caught" school of thought.

 

Not every gun owner in NJ has always been a resident of NJ, and most places have no registration of pistols. There are ways you could legally own a pistol in NJ where LE has no way of verifying, sans you telling them.

[Dan 177]

Not every gun owner in NJ has always been a resident of NJ, and most places have no registration of pistols. There are ways you could legally own a pistol in NJ where LE has no way of verifying, sans you telling them.

 

I knew someone would bring this up. Yes, you can move to NJ with HG's and they would be owned legally here, thus there is no way LE can infer that an unregistered non-NJ purchased HG was legally transferred to someone or not.

 

But in the OP's scenario, the HG in question is being purchased in NJ.

[Barms 98]

I've been reading this site for about 3 months and its pretty amazing how often this topic comes up.. the "i'm using a gun that was purchased by someone else, if i'm just taking it to the range will i get in trouble?..." topic. And it always goes back to the "how do they check ownership?" (aka the "can they run your gun through a database? issue).. and that never gets answered...

 

Its remarkable.. it never gets answered.. but the overwhelming opinions suggest the laws are clear on how you LEGALLY obtain (notice i didnt even say purchase) a gun, and guns are not allowed to be borrowed. So therefore any HG you put your hands on (without the owner present) is illegal.

 

but now go place odds on if you think you will get stopped by the police. Drive around with vicodin that's not yours in the glove compartment, cop doesnt make a big deal.. drive with an HG in the trunk.. much bigger deal.

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

Out of curiosity, has anybody on here every had any of their firearms 'run' through the system by a cop during a routine traffic stop, to ensure that they were the legal owner?

 

Just to add to this. NJSP maintains a data base of handgun transfers conducted by permits or voluntary registration. However, I don"t know if this is accessible by local PDs or they would have to phone in for this info. Maybe someone who is a NJ LEO can answer this.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the whole thing sucks. <and the congregations says....amen>

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Not directed towards anyone in particular:

 

How about this, the law is the law and that's that. Decide to abide by it or not, that's your gamble. Are all of our gun registered in NJ, NO they are not, do they have to be, NO, are all sales in NJ of Handguns able to be tracked when purchased in NJ through a FFL or F2F sale, YES. Guns purchased legally out of state while a resident of that state NJ does not need to know anything about them. Is there a chance you could get caught if you have a gun other than your own, sure is, likely, probably not.

 

Either way, if you have your own gun or someone else's and these questions are being asked, well I would think you would have bigger problems than just this if it went that far anyway.

 

By the way, I think it's a stupid law, but it is what it is and hopefully will get changed one day, but it is what it is.

[Soju 153]

Well the issue is not a moral one as you have posed. It is that the law is NOT clear, and there is some debate on the legality of it, (at least to certain extents, like using it on your property for example). I don't think anyone is suggesting to violate a law knowingly, though maybe someone is. Some people to believe in civil disobedience to certain levels.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Just to add to this. NJSP maintains a data base of handgun transfers conducted by permits or voluntary registration. However, I don"t know if this is accessible by local PDs or they would have to phone in for this info. Maybe someone who is a NJ LEO can answer this.

In a previous thread an LEO said that there is an accessible system if the PD has access to it. So they do have the ability to check with out calling the NJPS.

[MrSurfboard 1]

Are you a prohibited person, one who can not own firearms? Why not just get your own FID.

[MrSurfboard 1]

Just to add to this. NJSP maintains a data base of handgun transfers conducted by permits or voluntary registration. However, I don"t know if this is accessible by local PDs or they would have to phone in for this info. Maybe someone who is a NJ LEO can answer this.

 

Any handgun purchase in NJ using the P2P form is accessible 24/7 by your local PD through NCIC 2000.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

I don't think anyone is suggesting to violate a law knowingly, though maybe someone is.

Not me. I'm a rule follower.

[Kingsoverqueens 10]

Are you a prohibited person, one who can not own firearms? Why not just get your own FID.

I am not a prohibited person and have a FID, and my own pistol which was purchased with permit.

 

My wife also has a FID and 2 P2P we'd like to use.

 

I wanted to get her a gun, but would like the ability to use it too. She's not always at the range when I am. In fact, she's hardly ever at the range when I am.

[MrSurfboard 1]

I am not a prohibited person and have a FID, and my own pistol which was purchased with permit.

 

My wife also has a FID and 2 P2P we'd like to use.

 

I wanted to get her a gun, but would like the ability to use it too. She's not always at the range when I am. In fact, she's hardly ever at the range when I am.

 

Then I think it's pretty safe to say, it will not be an issue if you use her guns.

[Malsua 1,422]

Then I think it's pretty safe to say, it will not be an issue if you use her guns.

 

Yeah, if he didn't live in NJ.

 

One final note. A Firearms Purchaser ID grants absolutely no legal status to handguns at any time, or any place.

[Jon 264]

Any handgun purchase in NJ using the P2P form is accessible 24/7 by your local PD through NCIC 2000.

 

NCIC2000 shows what guns are registered to a particular person through P2P. Merely running a serial number will not reveal the owner.