Barms 98 Posted June 9, 2012 I've read lots but here is an opinion question... (no its not the dreaded.. "should i build or buy?" question.. :-) being new to firearms i was kinda dumbfounded that the AR15 shoots essentially a 22 caliber bullet. (please lets not get technical about 223 being bigger than 22). since i was a rookie i saw those HUGE cartridges of 2.23 and 556 and just figured it was a BIGGER bullet.. like a 45 or something like that. So when i was reading that a S&W 15-22 for like $500.. and the "other" AR's were over a thousand bucks for the longest time i just thought "well bigger bullet equals bigger platform = more money".. etc etc.. so then i find out the "bigger bullet" is really just still 22 caliber. So here is the question: Can someone tell me any other reason why they went 2.23 or 556 instead of 22LR? I know its natural that bigger = better.. but the bullet really isnt bigger! Yes, i know the STOPPING POWER is different. I read a great article where they showed 22L vs 2.23 the size of the hole it makes and the 2.23 went through a steel plate and the 22LR did not. I get it that the bullet is more powerful. I dunno, i guess i'm just having a hard time processing it. With handguns its black and white: 9mm is bigger and stronger than 22LR, 45 is bigger and stronger than 9mm. The caliber IS DIFFERENT. But 2.23 is same size as 22LR, essentially.. Please don't cringe when you read that. So besides stopping power.. can some guys tell me why they went 223/556 over the 22LR? Is there something else about the rifles i don't know? Distance? Accuracy? Reliability? From reading a lot on this forum when people ask "what kind of AR should i buy/build?" the answer is always "what are you going to use it for?" So here i'd like some of you AR lovers to tell me the differences between the 22LR and 223/556 (besides stopping power). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted June 9, 2012 First, it's .223 as in .223" of bullet diameter. And 5.56 as in 5.56 mm - the metric equivalent of .223. Weight was one of the larger considerations in choosing the 5.56x45 as the US battle cartridge. A soldier can carry a larger quantity of lighter weight ammunition. There are other reasons, and people will chime in, I'm sure. You have quite a ballistics learning curve ahead of you. Adios, Pizza Bob PS: Don't ever tell a FN 5.7 handgun shooter that bigger is better. Me? That's a philosophy (not an absolute) that I like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matty 810 Posted June 9, 2012 Range. Just get a 5.56 AR, if you can afford it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted June 9, 2012 It's definitely a bigger bullet... As mentioned above... diameter may almost be the same, but it has way more meat and powder behind it. Sent from John's iPad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted June 9, 2012 Accuracy at range, trajectory, power would be the major factors. .22 is cheap as hell though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 Maybe this will help: So what exactly is the difference between the .22LR and .223 cartridges? Both can be fired out of rifles, and both can be fired out of pistols. Both have been used historically by civilian and military shooters. Both can be used for hunting (.22LR for animals such as rats, squirrels, rabbits, ground hogs; .223 for larger animals including coyotes, and in some states deer). Both are extremely popular rounds — .22LR is by far the most popular rimfire cartridge, and .223 is near the top (if not at the top) of the list of most popular centerfire cartridges. Well, there’s one difference right there. Rimfire is an older design, which for the most part has been replaced with centerfire. Almost all ammunition used now is centerfire. With rimfire, the firing pin impacts on the rim of the case. With centerfire, the firing pin impacts in the center of the case. Fairly self explanitory. But it doesn’t really explain the differences between the two cartridges very well. As mentioned above, rimfire is an older technology than centerfire. The .22LR cartridge was introduced in 1887, while the .223 cartridge was designed in 1964, specifically for use in the M-16 rifle. Nearly a century separates the two cartridges, but what makes them different? Size-wise, the newer cartridge is slightly larger. The caliber of the cartridge measures the diameter (in inches). So the newer cartridge is 0.003″ larger in diameter — who cares? A human hair is from 0.003″ to 0.005″ in diameter. Is such a slight increase in diameter really going to make a difference? Below is a cardboard pizza box shot with a .22LR bullet. The entry point can be seen on the left and the exit on the right. A penny is used for reference. Now compare that to the same exact pizza box shot with a .223 bullet. Again, the entry point can be seen on the left and the exit on the right, and a penny is used for reference. Not much visible difference, right? Instead of a cardboard pizza box, this time the target is a 16-gauge metal pipe. Notice that the pipe is visibly deformed at point of entry (left), and there is no exit point. The .22LR bullet did not pierce the metal pipe. A penny is used for reference. Now compare that to the same exact 16-gauge metal pipe shot with a .223 bullet. There is a well defined entry point, and the bullet’s copper jacket peeled off upon entry and stuck. Not only did the .223 bullet have enough energy to pierce the front side of the pipe, it easily pierced the back side of the pipe as well. A penny is used for reference. To understand why the .223 bullet was so easily able to pierce both sides of the metal pipe, and why the .22LR bullet failed to pierce even the front side of the pipe, a few other factors need to be looked at. Rimfire cartridges have for the most part been replaced by centerfire cartridges because the thin case walls of rimfires cannot handle nearly as high of pressures as those of a centerfire cartridge. Higher pressure means that the ejected bullet has more energy to deliver on its target because its velocity is greater. The bullets also vary in size and shape. Availability for .22LR bullets varies from 36 to 60 grains in weight (2.3 to 3.9 grams), while .223 bullets range from 40 to 90 grains in weight (2.6 to 5.8 grams). The .22LR bullet is rounded while the .223 bullet comes to a sharp point. The .223 cartridge contains significantly more powder than the .22LR cartridge (maximum pressure 24,000 PSI for .22LR; maximum pressure 50,000 PSI for .223). The .223 bullet is a much heavier bullet, travelling at a higher velocity. This means that the .223 bullet has much more energy to deliver on its target. Upon impact .223 bullets demonstrate a tendency to tumble, increasing the size of the wound channel. The .223 bullet also delivers additional damage due to hydrostatic shock. The .22LR bullet has neither of these qualities. The .22LR cartridge on the left, and the .223 cartridge on the right. A penny is used for reference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 For demonstration purposes, other calibers were shot at the cardboard pizza box and 16-gauge metal pipe. Entry point can be seen on the left and exit on the right. A penny is used for reference. 9mm NATO 9mm NATO 45ACP .45 ACP .45 ACP 7.62x39mm 7.62x39mm From left to right: 45ACP, 9mm NATO, .22LR, .223, 7.62x39mm Aaron Spuler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted June 10, 2012 Get one of each, maybe not right away, but you will so just except it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 Get one of each, maybe not right away, but you will so just except it.. I just picked up a 5.56 and it is awesome. Just need to zero the scopes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted June 10, 2012 I just picked up a 5.56 and it is awesome. Just need to zero the scopes. Very Nice, I like the pair of optics also. Oh and the new avatar ain't to shabby either.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 Very Nice, I like the pair of optics also. Oh and the new avatar ain't to shabby either.. She likes to hold it... My special avatar for June. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted June 10, 2012 She likes to hold it... Heck of a lot better than that picture floating around here of some shottie love'n.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted June 10, 2012 22lr = .222 diameter 40gr about 1200fps 5.56= .224 diameter 55-75gr about 3200fps 5.56 is marginally bigger in diameter, yet can be almost 2x the weight(longer), and travels nearly 3x faster... people who say the bullets are the same really have no idea what they are talking about. And add in the fact the case is completely different gives much different bullet ballistics. You can get 22lr in 60gr, but you will be hunting for a barrel to shoot it accurately, and IMO is a waste because it is such a weak round to begin with. The bullet shape and construction is different, 5.56 is jacketed, and 22lr is washed, most 5.56 comes in boat tail config for accuracy... which would you rather have? m855 can punch holes is 1/4in steel, 22lr wont even put a dent in that. I have no idea why they call it .223, the bullet is .224. You also have some serious options in bullet config for the 5.56/.223, varmint ballistic tip, armor piercing, HollowPoint, Boat Tail, FMJ, Tracer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted June 10, 2012 Heck of a lot better than that picture floating around here of some shottie love'n.. Please don't bring that up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkinsFan 2 Posted June 10, 2012 Thanks for that post Rifleman1. It answered a few of my quiestions Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
when_shtf 4 Posted June 10, 2012 The title of the thread is more interesting then the actual question. I expected to see a question such as "since I'm only going to use the rifle for target practice, does it make more sense to purchase a .22LR over a .223?" The answer to that question is "possibly". The .22LR is more economical ($0.05 per round vs. $0.35) and it's very quiet, allowing more possibilities for places to shoot. But at the end of the day, the .223/5.56 is a lot more fun. With that said my next AR will be in .22LR because I like trigger time more then making big holes and hearing loud bangs. To the OP's question, you need to do a lot of ballistics research. The .223 has nothing in common with the .22LR and there is almost no basis of a reasonable comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 Thanks for that post Rifleman1. It answered a few of my quiestions Not a problem. Keep the questions coming. This forum is so educational. A good shooter is always learning... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Haylyamber 0 Posted June 10, 2012 Get a 5.56 Upper with a drop in .22 conversion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted June 10, 2012 Great stuff guys.. Rifleman, i had read that exact same web comparison previously.. that was the exact reason why i started this thread.. i wanted to know do guys choose 223/556 over 22LR strictly for the power. I'm sorry if this thead drifted into an education on ballistics.. i do indeed know the ROUND is not the same (round meaning the entirety including the weight, the velocity..etc etc..). I should have been more specific in that the DIAMETER is the same, as BHunted posted, i was curious if there was something else that guys wanted besides "more stopping power". So what i'm getting is that the answer seems to be range, accuracy, power.. the 22LR is more like a plinker and the others are for serious rifle coneisours (spelling?).. and i hope i just didnt insult a 15-22 owner there. Right now in my rookie-ness I am still at the plinking stage and have never even shot outdoors yet. Halyamber, i will check that out.. (after i google around and find out exactly what that means.. ha ha..). No need to expand on that in this thread, it will just drift too much. thank you to all the replies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted June 10, 2012 Just remember , caliber is just one aspect of cartridge performance and capabilities. Weight of the bullet, how much and type of powder is pushing it, and length of the barrel are also very important aspects that affect ballistics and all need to be considered when determining the performance characteristics that you are going for when looking for a cartridge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted June 10, 2012 So what i'm getting is that the answer seems to be range, accuracy, power.. the 22LR is more like a plinker and the others are for serious rifle coneisours (spelling?).. and i hope i just didnt insult a 15-22 owner there. Right now in my rookie-ness I am still at the plinking stage and have never even shot outdoors yet. I wouldnt so much say that either. The .223 is still a relatively cheap and plentiful round as far as centerfire cartriges are concerned. Some rifle "connoisseurs" will tell you the round is too small, lacks power, lacks range, tough to stabiliize. etc. Results may vary. I think .223 is great for plinking while still feeling like your firing an actual gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted June 10, 2012 I wouldnt so much say that either. The .223 is still a relatively cheap and plentiful round as far as centerfire cartriges are concerned. Some rifle "connoisseurs" will tell you the round is too small, lacks power, lacks range, tough to stabiliize. etc. Results may vary. I think .223 is great for plinking while still feeling like your firing an actual gun. Yeah .223 for rifles is like the .22lr for handguns.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted June 10, 2012 Great stuff guys.. Rifleman, i had read that exact same web comparison previously.. that was the exact reason why i started this thread.. i wanted to know do guys choose 223/556 over 22LR strictly for the power. I'm sorry if this thead drifted into an education on ballistics.. i do indeed know the ROUND is not the same (round meaning the entirety including the weight, the velocity..etc etc..). I should have been more specific in that the DIAMETER is the same, as BHunted posted, i was curious if there was something else that guys wanted besides "more stopping power". So what i'm getting is that the answer seems to be range, accuracy, power.. the 22LR is more like a plinker and the others are for serious rifle coneisours (spelling?).. and i hope i just didnt insult a 15-22 owner there. Right now in my rookie-ness I am still at the plinking stage and have never even shot outdoors yet. Halyamber, i will check that out.. (after i google around and find out exactly what that means.. ha ha..). No need to expand on that in this thread, it will just drift too much. thank you to all the replies! We are all still learning. It is important to understand or know something about ballistics and ballistic coefficients. I decided to buy a 5.56 instead of a .22LR for the energy and distance. I wanted an weapon capable of being effective at an intermediate range of 100 - 300 yards and a will buy a .308 at some point for long range of 300 - 1000 yards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithco88 3 Posted June 11, 2012 Rifleman1 - nice writeup. The only other thing I consider to be different is that .223 rounds are usually jacketed to facilitate deeper penetration (giggidy) whereas most (not all) .22LR rounds are just soft metal (usually lead) because they lack the velocity to penetrate much of anything anyway. Excepting of course some of the crazy .22LR ammo that CCI makes. My understanding anyway... To the OP: I struggled with this a little too because I'm usually only shooting indoors, which means under 30 yards, which is ALMOST a waste of time & money with an AR firing .223. Its still fun and you can work/build on some skills, tighten up groups, maybe to target transitions within the one port you have access to; but you're really not taking advantage of the strengths of the round, which (and ppl will correct me) I believe is optimally at 100 - 300ish yards. I've heard some military friends say they practice out to 600 yards with iron sights...but they may have been messing with me. My only suggestion is to consider buying for what you think you might want to do down the road. If you pick up a .22LR AR and love it and say "damn i wanna go prone and shoot some long distance w/ some optics" you're kinda SOL. That being said I don't know many places in New Jersistan that even have that access so maybe it remains the best answer. Another piece to consider is the "black rifle disease" whereby most people on here with ARs will tell you that because of the damn modularity of the platform you end up spending time/money adding accessories or building out your collection once you see the range of possibilities. .22LR conversion kits are available for .223/5.56 ARs as an accessory for under $300...you just need to make sure it comes with a Jerz legal magazine, the nice one from CMMG has an EVIL 26 round magazine. This works, because to your point, the bullet is essentially the same size so all you need to do is switch out the bolt carrier group (or some other back end component) and BAM...cheap shooter. I hear accuracy suffers a bit in conversions vs built from the ground .22LR rifles, but again do you care if you're just practicing transition drills at an indoor range? OH, if you go to take a carbine class to learn some stuff I doubt they'll let you do it with a .22LR...this is an assumption by me though so you could ask around. I went with .223/5.56 (waiting on Stag for my upper still) because I dream some day of moving to America where I can do some long range and multi-target outdoor shooting. Until that time my Ruger 10/22 is likely to get as much trigger time as my AR. Apologies for the rambling, hope that helps a little. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sigman 41 Posted June 11, 2012 If you're only "plinking" at 25 to 50 yds a .22 is fine. If you plan to do some target shooting at distances past that, you'll want a .223. You can get the .223 AR then buy an additional .22 upper for plinking. The trajectory will be much flatter with .223 over longer distances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted June 13, 2012 With handguns its black and white: 9mm is bigger and stronger than 22LR, 45 is bigger and stronger than 9mm. The caliber IS DIFFERENT. Not as much as you think. There's PLENTY of handgun calibers that share the very similar diameter bullets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dave545 15 Posted June 13, 2012 almost cant compare the 2 i have a 15-22 and love it because you can shoot 550 rounds for the same price as 65 rounds of 5.56 i also have a 5.56 ar and love that as well. its boils down to what type of shooting you are doing. tin cans at 50 yards or steel plates at 100+ and do you want a nice bang. and of course it is nice ot have a rifle that shoots a decent sized bullet with some power in the arsenal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted June 13, 2012 Not as much as you think. There's PLENTY of handgun calibers that share the very similar diameter bullets. yeah 9mm, 44, .45 just for instance all share common diameters with other calibers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites