Coltnut 15 Posted July 19, 2012 i know that within the state, Nj makes no distinction between modern and antiques when it comes to handguns and that both require a P2P to buy WITHIN THE STATE. But, since the P2P is just that, ie a permit to purchase, not own, and pre-1898 handguns are not regulated outside of NJ, what applies if i find an antique and want to purchase it while at a shop (in person) out of state? Can I legally buy it in person and bring it back to NJ? We're talking pre-1898, obsolete caliber etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcbethr 42 Posted July 19, 2012 Boy... nobody is touching this one... I am not a lawyer. My guess is that as a resident of NJ, you are knowingly going across state lines to do something that is illegal to do here. Buy the gun and keep it in PA - fine. There are guys here who have converted Saiga shotguns in PA. If you buy the black powder gun and transport it to NJ, you are breaking the law as a New Jersey resident. If you were a PA resident and moved here - no problem. A 30 day permit wait is better than 7 years in Jail. Don't like it? Take the money that you were planning to spend on the gun and join the New Jersey Second Amendment Society and then fight to get these laws repealed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coltnut 15 Posted July 19, 2012 No. I will not break the law. period. Honestly, just didn't know what the law was. Very confusing. If it is illegal, then I am staying far, far away from even coming close to doing that. Just didn't know is all, and was asking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted July 20, 2012 Boy... nobody is touching this one... I am not a lawyer. My guess is that as a resident of NJ, you are knowingly going across state lines to do something that is illegal to do here. It's not illegal there (at least in virtually any other state), so NJ law is irrelevant and does not apply. Buy the gun and keep it in PA - fine. There are guys here who have converted Saiga shotguns in PA. If you buy the black powder gun and transport it to NJ, you are breaking the law as a New Jersey resident. How? Federal law allows it and if you buy an antique or BP gun in a state that does not require any paperwork or prohibit the sale, you are not breaking any laws. NJ law requires a permit to buy a HG, not own it, by the time you cross back into NJ you are already the owner. The key thing is that the gun must be acquired legally at the time of purchase. If you were a PA resident and moved here - no problem. A 30 day permit wait is better than 7 years in Jail. Don't like it? Take the money that you were planning to spend on the gun and join the New Jersey Second Amendment Society and then fight to get these laws repealed. OP, you are not breaking any laws by buying antique, BP or air guns in person out of state (if it's legal there) and bring them back to NJ. Just be sure not to have anything shipped into NJ, that's NOT legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcbethr 42 Posted July 20, 2012 OP, you are not breaking any laws by buying antique, BP or air guns in person out of state (if it's legal there) and bring them back to NJ. Just be sure not to have anything shipped into NJ, that's NOT legal. I respectfully disagree. Here's why: Yes, NJ law does not apply once you leave NJ, but it will apply when you bring it back. Don't we still fill out the NJ COE when we buy a long gun in PA? Yes, the gun store clerks laugh at it and probably toss it in the shredder when we leave, but we are a New Jersey resident who is intends to circumvent NJ law. You acquired the gun outside of NJ while a NJ resident and brought it back into NJ. Remember, there are no BB Guns, there are no black powder guns, there are no percussion cap guns, there are only GUNS in New Jersey and you need the associated paperwork. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Recon Racoon 49 Posted July 20, 2012 Are airguns firearms in other states? No. Are BB guns firearms out of state? No. Is it mandatory to register firearms in state? No. How is it illegal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted July 20, 2012 No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section. "Handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand. Is it a handgun? yes. Therefore, you need a P2P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heaterbob 53 Posted July 20, 2012 it IS legal to buy a bp or bb/pellet handgun out of state without a permit. there is no requirement. and no registeration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted July 20, 2012 i know that within the state, Nj makes no distinction between modern and antiques when it comes to handguns and that both require a P2P to buy WITHIN THE STATE. But, since the P2P is just that, ie a permit to purchase, not own, and pre-1898 handguns are not regulated outside of NJ, what applies if i find an antique and want to purchase it while at a shop (in person) out of state? Can I legally buy it in person and bring it back to NJ? We're talking pre-1898, obsolete caliber etc. Buying an original 1873 Colt Peacemaker center fire cartridge gun without paperwork or a FFL is a no-no, since even .44-40 smokeless cartridges are commonly available. Buying a black powder single-shot or a reproduction black powder revolver is like buying a wrench @ SEARS (in PA, for instance). NJ law isn't enforced in PA, therefore it's legal to sell and buy person-to-person in PA store, flea market, yard sale, whatever..... Once the gun crosses back into NJ, it's considered a hand gun and must be transported locked in your trunk. NO mandatory registration, NO paperwork, but it's still a hand gun in NJ, so you can't strap it on yer waist and take a ride with it in your car. IF buying a black powder revolver was illegal except through the regular NJ permit process, then the damn NJ dealers would have them in stock, wouldn't they???? Follow the money (or lack of inventory in this case), as it leads to the border where Free America still resides....... Hearing about someone doing something wrong (unlawful) with a black powder single-shot or revolver is practically unheard of. Nobody is going-around robbing banks with them they way it was done back in the Civil War days. So it's a non-issue. There are already numerous laws covering weapons being on the person or in the possession of felons, prohibited persons, etc. When's the last time you read something in an article about some Gang-Banger doin stick-ups with a Colt Dragoon? Here's more food for thought: Most black powder afficianados in NJ are already registered owners of some sort of relatively decent collection of small arms, both long guns and hand guns. Multiple copies of permits all over God's creation, so THEY ALREADY KNOW WHO WE ARE! I would venture to say that there probably aren't too many users of Cap and Ball reproduction revolvers in NJ, let alone any with NO other means of defending themselves. My Dad's cousin left some to him before he passed. My Dad passed them along to me. Am I now a Felon because they aren't registered in my name? NO, NOT HARDLY! And for the same reason that Joe's Widow get's Joe's .45 ACP WITHOUT any transfer paperwork, as long as SHE is not a prohibited person! So let's not beat this horse to death :thsmiley_deadhorse: , O-K fellas? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Recon Racoon 49 Posted July 20, 2012 No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section. "Handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand. Is it a handgun? yes. Therefore, you need a P2P. Yes, under the Nazi regime that is New Jersey. That law (while still enforceable for 'modern' hand guns post production 1899) doesn't apply to an antique firearm or black powder (as far as I know) in PA, or even DE. Hell ATF doesn't even consider anything pre 1899 a firearm any more, and neither do free states. That's why FFLs aren't a requirement when dealing with arms made prior to 1899, and they can be shipped direct to your door (with the exception of NJ and other a** backwards states/regions). If we all lived in PA, or FL, or NC, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be asking OP for pics and a range report. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianargent 7 Posted July 20, 2012 We fill out a CoE in PA to buy a longarm because of federal law, which requires FFLs and purchasers to follow the laws of the purchaser's state when buying longarms out of state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cemeterys Gun Blob 165 Posted July 20, 2012 Buying an original 1873 Colt Peacemaker center fire cartridge gun without paperwork or a FFL is a no-no, since even .44-40 smokeless cartridges are commonly available. Interesting point....... ......BUT, 1873 Colt SAA made prior to some point around 1900 can only handle black powder cartridge or extremely low powder smokeless loads, which neither are 'commercially' available....but then what defines 'commercially'? A cartridge company like Winchester or Remington? Commercial reloaders like Ammo Direct? Or some dude who rolls 'em up at home for a few bucks here and there? David Hardy of 'Of Arms and the Law' pondered this very question....since some obsolete cartridges are being made to order from various people. So if you can confirm that you Colt SAA was produced in 1879, and can only handle real black.....what then? But this is NJ, and I already know the answer.....you shouldn't own guns in the first place!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted July 20, 2012 We fill out a CoE in PA to buy a longarm because of federal law, which requires FFLs and purchasers to follow the laws of the purchaser's state when buying longarms out of state. True, BUT ONLY with center fire and/or rim fire long guns using smokeless powder. NO COE for percussion or flint locks, rifles OR pistols. They're all covered under the Antique Firearms provisions, so NO paperwork........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coltnut 15 Posted July 20, 2012 I was referring to OBSOLETE weapons, such as an antique pinfire gun or .41 rimfire for example. Never-the-less, as I understand it, those ARE considered handguns with NO distinction from a modern firearm under the law in NJ. I won't even contemplate breaking ANY laws in NJ, or even entering any gray areas, simply not something I would do. I just wanted confirmation of my understanding about buying oos since these aren't considered firearms anywhere but here, that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted July 20, 2012 If you're not sure, have it or them shipped to a NJ-based FFL, preferably one who deals in antique firearms. I tried looking for the Exemption/Exception for Antiques like the pin-fired gun. I vaguely remember reading something about not having ammo, no commercial ammo, etc., etc. But you can't carry an Antique on your person, so that is covered. Best bet is to try to use a P2P and have the dealer tell you that you don't need one. Some NJ stores like Griffin and Howe deal in investment grade firearms and antiques. I don't know if they handle hand guns, but if they did, they'd be the folks who would know the laws regarding pin fired hand guns. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted July 21, 2012 I was referring to OBSOLETE weapons, such as an antique pinfire gun or .41 rimfire for example. Never-the-less, as I understand it, those ARE considered handguns with NO distinction from a modern firearm under the law in NJ. I won't even contemplate breaking ANY laws in NJ, or even entering any gray areas, simply not something I would do. I just wanted confirmation of my understanding about buying oos since these aren't considered firearms anywhere but here, that's all. If you are talking about obsolete guns made AFTER 1898, I would recommend going the FFL/PPP route to CYA. Anything made before 1899, regardless of whether or not it takes readily available cartridges, is an antique under federal law and can be bought and sold outside of NJ without papers by anyone (prohibited persons possibly not withstanding). The same applies to all BP and airguns, regardless of manufacture date. You can also sell an antique in PA (or most other states) without papers to anyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted July 21, 2012 I respectfully disagree. Here's why: Yes, NJ law does not apply once you leave NJ, but it will apply when you bring it back.True, but PPP's are only required to BUY a HG, not to OWN a HG Don't we still fill out the NJ COE when we buy a modern long gun in PA? Yes because the ATF requires dealers to comply with all applicable laws of the buyers home state or risk losing their license, many dealers don't bother anyway and suffer no ramifications from it. The ATF does not regulate antiques, BP or airguns at all. Yes, the gun store clerks laugh at it and probably toss it in the shredder when we leave, but we are a New Jersey resident who is intends to circumvent NJ law. You acquired the gun outside of NJ while a NJ resident and brought it back into NJ. Remember, there are no BB Guns, there are no black powder guns, there are no percussion cap guns, there are only GUNS in New Jersey True and you need the associated paperwork. What law says you must have this paperwork to OWN any firearm in NJ? This paperwork is required at the time of sale in NJ only. You could legally purchase HG's and modern long guns in NJ and throw away the PPP or COE copies when you get home, this is not a wise idea, but there is no law that compels you to keep it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted July 21, 2012 No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of, nor receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or has first secured a permit to purchase a handgun as provided by this section. "Handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand. Is it a handgun? yes. Therefore, you need a P2P. This is NJ law which does not apply out of the state. If you acquire a pre 1898 handgun or black powder handgun in a state which follows Federal law, which treats neither as a firearm, that's a legal acquisition. NJ cannot dictate acquisition laws for antique or BP guns for NJ residents in other states. That is for the actual state of purchase and the Federal government to do. Being Federal law has no restrictions on pre 1898 guns you don't have to purchase them from a dealer you can buy them from an individual as long as the state law mirrors the Federal law. Using your logic you have broken the law when you buy that handgun ammo in Wal Mart in PA because they didn't make you show your NJFID. NJ can only make laws that apply to things within its borders, the same as any other state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted July 21, 2012 This is NJ law which does not apply out of the state. If you acquire a pre 1898 handgun or black powder handgun in a state which follows Federal law, which treats neither as a firearm, that's a legal acquisition. NJ cannot dictate acquisition laws for antique or BP guns for NJ residents in other states. That is for the actual state of purchase and the Federal government to do. Being Federal law has no restrictions on pre 1898 guns you don't have to purchase them from a dealer you can buy them from an individual as long as the state law mirrors the Federal law. Using your logic you have broken the law when you buy that handgun ammo in Wal Mart in PA because they didn't make you show your NJFID. NJ can only make laws that apply to things within its borders, the same as any other state. There is no requirement that I show my FID to buy handgun ammo. The requirement is that I have a FID in order to qualify to buy handgun ammo. As an NJ resident, if I didn't have a FID and bought handgun ammo in PA and transported it back to NJ I would say I broke the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted July 21, 2012 There is no requirement that I show my FID to buy handgun ammo. The requirement is that I have a FID in order to qualify to buy handgun ammo. As an NJ resident, if I didn't have a FID and bought handgun ammo in PA and transported it back to NJ I would say I broke the law. There is a requirement to possess a FID, PPP, carry permit, or LE ID to acquire handgun ammo in NJ (2C:58-3.3). There is no law regarding possession of handgun ammunition in NJ unless you are a prohibited person. There is no requirement to show anything to buy handgun ammo in PA. Please explain your logic that if you didn't have a NJFID what would you be charged with in NJ? Your acquisition of handgun ammo in PA is totally legal as is possession in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites