Generator Brands?

[Ray Ray 3,566]

That's why I have my electronics plugged into a Monster HTS 5100 MKII PowerCenter.

 

Yup, cleans the voltage and hz right up. And, if I recall correctly, if the power goes off it has a battery backup that will allow you to shut down your PC in time no?

[Dan 177]

Let me just pose a question to you...when was the last time the power company gave you notice that the power was about to go out? A follow up question, when power returned, after blipping and brown-outing 5 times, how many devices weren't working?

 

Let me pose a question to your question, when was the last time the power company uses individual alternator based small 4000-9000watt generators directly connected to a small combustion engine to power your house. Apples and oranges here; hence, the failure modes and impacts may be very different. I'm no expert, but I know enough to realize you can't use the logic that works on one with logic that works on another.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

I only turned power on/off from my circuit breaker board. Never ran out of gas or shut off from the generator.

 

My wife ran the microwave for 45 seconds and that is when the Panamax surge supressor burned out. Cant reset it and the company will sell me a newer model for half price. So Im thinking the surge supressor took one for the team and jumped on the grenade (ie surge spike). Better to lose a $500 surge suppressor then the TV, tivo, DVD player and home theater setup.

 

The fridge is a Sub Zero. The electronic panel was off as soon as I lost power and started using the generator. I figured it was an "economy mode" that the fridge automatically went into when I started using the generator. Ten days later we get power back, I start the fridge up. Only getting the freezer and fridge light bulbs coming on, no sound of the compressor kicking in and the electronic control panel is dead. Called Sub Zero and they said it might be a circuit board that blew out. Repair guy will tell me later this week.

 

I dont know if these things were caused by spikes in the generator juice line or not. With all the hoopla about Hondas being the best generators out there, I would think that it wasnt the gennies fault. At least I hope its not.

 

This is very disconcerting and has me worrying now. It seems voltage swings aren't the only thing that can cause issues. I see talk of THD frequency swings or instability can also chip away at electronics.

 

Just a question , did at any time you shut off the gen or have it run out of gas before disconnecting your load (appliances, fridge, home theater, etc). This is a big no no and no matter how fancy of a gen you have it can cause damage.

[rszmit 2]

Yup, cleans the voltage and hz right up. And, if I recall correctly, if the power goes off it has a battery backup that will allow you to shut down your PC in time no?

 

I have two of them, one in the living for the entertainment system and the other in the bed for the TV,DVR etc..

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Also, I don't know about you, but a lot of the line fixes I'm seeing in my area seem sort of temporary or rushed, which is an understandable strategy for just getting power back to as many people as possible. That said, I'm inclined to think that even a moderate ice storm is probably going to be a bit more distruptive to the utilities than what I've seen in years past.

Which is why I changed the oil, rotated the gas stock and tucked her in for a nap. ;-). She's ready to go when called upon.

[Dan 177]

I thought about diesel Nick. I was going to use my home heating oil tank in the crawl space for storage (since its not in use any longer). I then started reading about the shelf life of diesel and whatnot. It turns out you have to really take care of it, use filters, water separating apparatuses , etc. It can start to grow bacteria which turns it to sludge. Plus, you also have to worry about low temps with gelling and cranking of the genny. If I was still using home heating oil, it would work as that gets rotated at least 2 times a year during the winter. I could have tapped off of that supply during power outages.

 

It was enough to turn me off. Back to the base-camp analogy, if i was running an off the grid location and needed constant power. I would definitely look at diesel. A fresh supply delivered every month with the gen running nearly 16hrs a day type of scenario.

 

For emergency power, I want something with a stable shelf life, easy supply, or something that I can rotate supply with. That's why I think propane, NG, and gasoline are the ways to go. I keep 20Gal of gas in 5 gal containers ready to go at all times. I treat them with stable, and once in awhile I rotate them by just filling up a car once in awhile with a jug. Easy to keep the supply fresh. NG is great also as it almost never goes down unless there was a major earthquake or you do live by the shore where they may shut it down with impending flood waters. For totally off the grid with a huge supply, propane has an indefinite shelf life, and you can get 100gal propane tanks pretty cheap, along with many services that will come to your home to fill them when needed.

[rightisright 3]

For emergency power, I want something with a stable shelf life, easy supply, or something that I can rotate supply with. That's why I think propane, NG, and gasoline are the ways to go.

 

Yeah. This past storm has me seriously thinking of a tri-fuel instead of an NG whole house unit. Although the NG has never gone down here, there is always the chance.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

That's why I have my electronics plugged into a Monster HTS 5100 MKII PowerCenter.

 

Just need a simple power conditioner, which some tv's should be run on anyway. That's a nice one, but Monster is $$$$$$$.

[Agent_Smith 1]

Anyone consider a generator that runs on propane tanks? Easier to store than gas. Was looking at the Generac LP 3250.

[mipafox 438]

It's called "Tolerance." Exactly like that stripe on the resistor you bought from Mouser to jerry rig something with a battery.

 

Many DC appliances, such as computers, have voltage regulators or varying quality downstream of the power supply. Some are really, really good. Some are crappy.

 

If you want to start wandering upstream, the first rock is probably a UPS. If you really want some serious voltage control, get a Buck/Boost from McMaster Carr or other industrial supplier, but it will cost you hundreds.

 

Finally, a special secret for people buying over $1K (I think, maybe higher). If you want something serious, consider shopping stores in the LA area. They tend to concentrate generators of extremely tight tolerances and regulation due to the professional and amateur movies industries out there. I'm not saying it's a panacea of generators, just that I would give it a look because of my experience out there.

[Malsua 1,422]

Let me pose a question to your question, when was the last time the power company uses individual alternator based small 4000-9000watt generators directly connected to a small combustion engine to power your house. Apples and oranges here; hence, the failure modes and impacts may be very different. I'm no expert, but I know enough to realize you can't use the logic that works on one with logic that works on another.

 

When the grid is failing due to trees falling and what not, there are spikes and drops all over the place. Your electronics handle that just fine. I'll also tell you that I had well over 100 computers on the grid in Honduras that would see 104 volts, 58-61 cycles, and then real brownouts down to 75-90 volts. These swings and floats were daily. The factory ran for 3 years, I didn't lose a single power supply or motherboard. There were also TVs, radios, DVD players, routers, switches, hubs, etc. much of that stuff was on UPS however, when the voltages are within tolerance, the UPS just passes line voltage through. You have to get some high end line conditioners to maintain perfect voltages. We had those for the CNC lathes. 3 phase line conditioners the size of a washing machine. I'm very familiar with bad power and for the most part, today's electronics aren't particularly bothered by it.

[mipafox 438]

Diesel can store for many years....and is more stable than gas.....

 

Read up on it.....don't discount diesel

 

It's also easier to run No. 2 Fuel oil from your heating oil tank, if you have oil heat.Also easier to do some silly cooking oil or biofuel stuff.Gasoline generators are easy to make run NG, propane, or any gas or vapor that burns.Downsides of the diesel is that there are less choices, they are more expensive, and they are harder to run and maintain in the short term unless you buy even more expensive models.I really really really wanted diesel. After a couple years of really really wanting it, a few weeks ago, I ended up with gasoline. Diesel is no longer in my immediate future. Maybe someday. Maybe not.

[Dan 177]

Malsua, I hear you on the power thing regarding spikes and sags on grid power and electronics handling it, but these situations are almost always voltage based. With non-inverter portable generators, they use an alternator which creates AC frequency based on the rotational speed of the rotor. When a portable generator like this runs out of gas or is turned off with the load still attached, the rotor will still supply electricity until it stops, so in the end before she halts, its last throw of power may be 20V at 12Hz AC which can really F things up.

 

With grid power, the power plant will still give out 60Hz no matter how many trees fall on lines or power dips there are on the supply infrastructure. A load will only have to deal with voltage drops, but whatever voltage gets through will still be 60Hz....

 

On the diesel side, my original plan was to use #2 heating oil which should run fine. And yup you can store it for years with proper care, but I just didn't want to mess around with treating it, pumping it to the generator, etc etc. Plus say after 8 years or so which is stretching it, what do I do with the now sour diesel sitting in my tank? I'd much rather have a few 100gal propane tanks on the side of the house behind some bushes or whatnot and run it through a tri-fuel then deal with oil. The propane will pretty much last my lifetime , with the added bonus of maybe using them to cross fill my BBQ tanks.

 

But yea, if I had to run a gen on a normal basis, and I would rip through the fuel every few years or whatnot, nothing beats a good diesel gen when it comes to longevity and fuel efficiency.

[Malsua 1,422]

You also have to make sure you properly size a Diesel. A diesel that sits there basically idling with a small load can wet stack. Essentially it's not running hot enough to burn all the fuel and carbon loads up in the valves.

[alec.mc 180]

Yup, cleans the voltage and hz right up. And, if I recall correctly, if the power goes off it has a battery backup that will allow you to shut down your PC in time no?

 

I dont know much about it, But it pretty much looks like a small UPS / power conditioner.

 

Like ray started to explain, hertz is the silent killer when it comes to electronics, the sine wave is inconsistent - spikes , dips , etc - people refer to this as dirty power. UPS system conditions power through a series of capicitors and batteries. AC power is converted to DC power, then back to AC again.

[Regulator72 80]

I ran my house for 10 days on a Yamaha EF2400. I connected it to the panel that feeds my pool, so it backfed into my main house panel (main was off, but i had all breakers on except for the 2 pole breakers (AC Units). Off of this unit, i ran 2 Refers, 2 Furnaces (gas), water heater (gas, electronic ign), my entertainment center (56" plasma, yamaha receiver, Directv, subwoofer) and various lights as needed. running all of this i managed to get 7-8 hrs of run time on a full tank (1.6 gallons). The Yamaha and Honda Generators/Inverters are really quiet and fuel efficient. My yamaha was so quiet, my neighbor dropped an extension cord over the fence to me to plug some stuff into, he thought I didn't have a generator..

 

There's a reason they cost more than the HD generacs, etc.. however, they all get the job done.. I am biased towards the Yamahas, as I am a dealer for them. If anyone is interested, please let me know. I will offer a nice NJGF discount on any of the Yamaha generators. models listed here

[JustJoe 0]

Dan,

 

Look at this model....

 

http://www.emergency...roduct=13323984

 

 

This is the direction I am going....I am upgrading from a 3500/4000W Gas to this model..............

 

We had plenty of Diesel around here pumping..but gas was an issue............ Also from what I read Diesel is much easier on these types of engines....and also quieter..and I like all outputs can be used...as well as the voltage regulator....not just a cap....

 

 

^^^^This ^^^^^for the reasons listed and because I heat with oil, so storing it and keeping it fresh is not a problem. Besides, I always have 100+gallons on hand.

[Dan 177]

I really want an inverter generator, there are a few things holding me back.

 

a) Cost (obviously)

b) Lack of 240V output except on the highest end models in the 4K range. I want to be able to power both legs in my home. The option to run the central A/C is very nice, plus I would like to use circuits on both legs throughout the home.

 

I am installing a whole home surge suppressor on my panel (Levition) and already have UPS's on my computer equipment. I also have an APC Line conditioner that can regulate surges and sages whithin a certain % that I can use on other devices in the house. I suppose I will have to take the risk using a non-inverter, but I just dont see an inverter as an option for what I'm trying to accomplish without spending $4K and up.

[O-gre 7]

Why not this??

 

http://www.costco.com/Cummins-Onan-RS20A-Home-Standby-Generator-with-200-Amp-Automatic-Transfer-Switch.product.11628795.html?catalogId=10701&keyword=onan&langId=-1&storeId=10301

[Dan 177]

Why not this??

 

http://www.costco.co...1&storeId=10301

 

That was an option that I was considering. Blocker on that is the cost, you have to figure another $1000+ or so for installation on top of that. Talking nearly $7K at that point. Trying to keep the whole solution under $3K, and DIY.

 

Interlock kit : $150

Breakers : $40

Leviton whole home surge suppressor : $200

US Carb NG/LPG kit : $200

20Ft NG gas hose and fittings: $250

240V gen receptical and boxes, assorted wires, cables : $300

New 5KW Gen : $1-2K

[Jersey Joe 4]

In my Northern Tool catalog I found Winco Tri-Fuel generators. They look awesome but not much info on them. If anyone knows anything about them please chime in. Thanks.

 

Linky

[Barms 98]

This thread is awesome.

[diamondd817 826]

You also have to make sure you properly size a Diesel. A diesel that sits there basically idling with a small load can wet stack. Essentially it's not running hot enough to burn all the fuel and carbon loads up in the valves.

 

You are right. Diesels need to work hard to run properly.If you are not running a 70-90% load constantly you will destroy the engine. We had to rebuild a john deere generator engine after only 6000hrs because it ran at 35% or less load most of the time. It was a 7.3ltr john deere with a 1400amp gen set (110kw). These engines are usually good for 20,000hrs - 30,000hrs.

[diamondd817 826]

When the grid is failing due to trees falling and what not, there are spikes and drops all over the place. Your electronics handle that just fine. I'll also tell you that I had well over 100 computers on the grid in Honduras that would see 104 volts, 58-61 cycles, and then real brownouts down to 75-90 volts. These swings and floats were daily. The factory ran for 3 years, I didn't lose a single power supply or motherboard. There were also TVs, radios, DVD players, routers, switches, hubs, etc. much of that stuff was on UPS however, when the voltages are within tolerance, the UPS just passes line voltage through. You have to get some high end line conditioners to maintain perfect voltages. We had those for the CNC lathes. 3 phase line conditioners the size of a washing machine. I'm very familiar with bad power and for the most part, today's electronics aren't particularly bothered by it.

 

Ageed. Todays electronics are not nearly as sensitive to voltage and hertz fluctuations as they were in the past.

 

I have a "dirty" power 8250w powerhouse generator that powered my entire home for 36hrs straight. Multiple computer, flat screens, dvd playes, etc, -- Not 1 problem or burn out.

[diamondd817 826]

That was an option that I was considering. Blocker on that is the cost, you have to figure another $1000+ or so for installation on top of that. Talking nearly $7K at that point. Trying to keep the whole solution under $3K, and DIY.

 

Interlock kit : $150

Breakers : $40

Leviton whole home surge suppressor : $200

US Carb NG/LPG kit : $200

20Ft NG gas hose and fittings: $250

240V gen receptical and boxes, assorted wires, cables : $300

New 5KW Gen : $1-2K

 

Save yourself a $150 on the interlock kit. Just remeber to shut off your main before turning on the generator breaker.

 

If you forget the worst that will happen is your generator breaker will trip, no big deal.

[alec.mc 180]

 

 

You are right. Diesels need to work hard to run properly.If you are not running a 70-90% load constantly you will destroy the engine. We had to rebuild a john deere generator engine after only 6000hrs because it ran at 35% or less load most of the time. It was a 7.3ltr john deere with a 1400amp gen set (110kw). These engines are usually good for 20,000hrs - 30,000hrs.

 

Maybe it varies engine to engine, but I was told by the Foley( caterpillar) tech for our big gens at work that 33% is the magic number, below that you see wet stacking.

 

[Steve_G 51]

That was an option that I was considering. Blocker on that is the cost, you have to figure another $1000+ or so for installation on top of that. Talking nearly $7K at that point. Trying to keep the whole solution under $3K, and DIY.

 

Interlock kit : $150

Breakers : $40

Leviton whole home surge suppressor : $200

US Carb NG/LPG kit : $200

20Ft NG gas hose and fittings: $250

240V gen receptical and boxes, assorted wires, cables : $300

New 5KW Gen : $1-2K

 

Where did you see someone doing installs for $1000? After talking to several Cummins and Kohler dealers, they all seem to run between 3000 and 4000 just for the install. That dies not include the gas meter upgrade either.

[Zerosignal 1]

 

I dont know if these things were caused by spikes in the generator juice line or not. With all the hoopla about Hondas being the best generators out there, I would think that it wasnt the gennies fault. At least I hope its not.

Hondas still can fluctuate in voltage. Your only real insurance there would be one of there invertor generators.

As far as your fridge you probably fried the defrost control board. Easily replaced at a third of what service guy is gonna charge you.

[diamondd817 826]

Maybe it varies engine to engine, but I was told by the Foley( caterpillar) tech for our big gens at work that 33% is the magic number, below that you see wet stacking.

 

I guess it could be dependent on what size engine and model it actually is. At 33% on the smaller 7-8ltr engines (cummins c 8.3, b 5.9, JD 7.3) the turbo isn't even spooling up.

 

Brand also plays a role. e.g. the Cummins C engines are much more tolerant of wet stacking than the John Deere's

[diamondd817 826]

I wouldn't worry about wet stacking.....Frankly if your looking at gensets and you know what your looking for and are sizing.g.it.properly my guess is you'll be running it at load anyway so stacking.is.less of an.issue

 

And considering you will only be putting minimal hrs on it, it becomes less of an issue.