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silverado427

Sensible gun control laws

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please explain how verifying that I am not a criminal is me "giving up my rights"

you sound like those "me" entitlement people you are complaining about earlier.. you are a perfect example of the "ME" generation.. god forbid you be inconvenienced in any way..

 

you support legislation that restricts my 2A rights, which are already heavily restricted in my state.

 

And if inconvenienced means having my already heavily restricted rights being stripped even more then I will gladly accept being a "ME" generation.

 

Dude, why don't you go to here http://forum.pafoa.org/

 

and start a thread stating why we should close the so-called "gunshow loophole"?

 

And where is MIPAFOX!

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I'm still trying to figure out why I should give any more of my Rights up to the Antis... Seriously, face-to-face transfers aren't the problem. I doubt that many criminals buy them through there at all.

 

correct, criminals deal with CRIMINALS. Why would a criminal go to a gun guy and try to buy a gun?

 

Sadly, Vlad just doesn't get it. He's a hypocrite.

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If you wanted to appeal to both sides of this argument, you could make face to face transfers only legal to someone with a valid ccw permit. It would prove they are not a prohibited person but the government wouldn't get involved every step of the way. This hypothetical permit would allow purchases of any weapon ftf with someone from any other state and would allow national carry reciprocity.

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If you wanted to appeal to both sides of this argument, you could make face to face transfers only legal to someone with a valid ccw permit. It would prove they are not a prohibited person but the government wouldn't get involved every step of the way. This hypothetical permit would allow purchases of any weapon ftf with someone from any other state and would allow national carry reciprocity.

 

What if the buyer doesn't choose to CCW and therefore has no CCW license? Not a bad idea, but your still trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

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I'm not trying to find a solution. Just offering up an option that has minor infringement but also gives the anti crowd one less argument.

 

If this was really proposed, the guy would have to go through an ffl for not getting the card. Criminals would still buy their guns from criminals, but it would give law abiding sellers some piece of mind

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It amazes me how many people on this forum would opt to give away more of their rights in a compromise. Are these tragedies horrible? Yes. Will more gun legislation stop them? No. Will more guns in the hands of responsible individuals curb violent crime. You bet! Now, even with all of that, the reasonable student of history would note and then come to the conclusion that too much power in the hands of the government is a bad thing. Power must be concentrated with the people. It would be much worse for a relatively free people to lose all of its freedoms and live in complete fear of the government than for a few (though horrible and tragic) events to be stopped. And, with all of that, the legislation will not stop those events from happening. It will just make the criminal, evil and/or insane people more creative and those that would be harmed defenseless. With immediate medical care, more people survive from gunshot wounds than knife attacks. I would imagine knives would be next on the list of those that would do harm. A car could certainly be a weapon.

 

Today on that ridiculous station MSNBC there was a man that was essentially vilified and portrayed as a wacko by the talking heads because he stated that the main reason for the 2nd Amendment is not sporting, hunting, self-defense, but rather to put an unjust government in check. Then he made a statement about how the current government is largely trying to circumvent the law and was unaccountable for its actions. He was pounced on.

 

There is much greater concerns in giving the government more control over its citizens.

 

And, as a last thought, the progressive/liberal/statist will under no circumstances hold to a compromise. As soon as it would go into effect, there would be actions to do more.

 

The only answer is to empower the people and teach them personal responsibility and accountability.

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You want peace of mind? Then don't sell a gun to someone you think is a criminal. OR, sell it to a gun shop if your that afraid of it falling into the wrong hands.

 

i dont want piece of mind. i'm just playing devils advocate.

 

the problem i see is that i think, given recent events, and the current administration, that there WILL BE more gun control. like it or not, people think there is a "gun show loophole". so we can either accept something like i recommend or what i think will happen is background checks required for all purchases, even face to face, with registration added on as a side effect. kinda like we live with every day in NJ

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Why would a criminal go to a gun guy and try to buy a gun?

 

because there is a gun available?

 

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/Following_the_Gun%202000.pdf

 

Number of investigations involving FFLs 133 100.0

FFL trafficking alone 48 36.1

Multiple channels 85 63.0

Multiple channels (may be more than one)

 

 

Trafficking in firearms at gun shows and flea markets 41 30.8

Firearms trafficked by straw purchaser or straw purchasing ring 37 27.8

Trafficking in firearms by unlicensed sellers* 16 12.0

Trafficking in firearms stolen from residence 6 4.5

Trafficking in firearms stolen from FFLs 3 2.3

Note: Sum

 

I get that you can twist and manipulate any facts you want... but the reality is a transaction in which you sell a firearm to someone without a background check IS the potential to sell to a criminal.. I really dont understand why any "responsible gun owner" would want to participate in an activity where they may be potentially selling a gun to someone that is not allowed to have one... again this is the reason that even though I am not forced to I only transfer through an FFL anymore.. at that point the individual has to have a background check and I have done my part to make sure the gun is going to a legitimate buyer...

 

your failure to understand that is mind boggling...

 

if the government misused background checks as a means to compile a database to come search your house and steal your guns.. then that is an entirely different issue.. one that has nothing to do with the issue at face value.. if you are really fearful of that you should probably delete all your online activity.. and climb into a hole somewhere.. since I am sure you mentioned on here at least once you had guns.. and I am sure the government could find you if they really wanted to..

 

 

You want peace of mind? Then don't sell a gun to someone you think is a criminal.

 

what magic crystal ball are you using to decide if you "think" the person is a criminal... what awesome advice.. "just don't sell if you think they are a criminal" LMFAO

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i dont want piece of mind. i'm just playing devils advocate.

 

the problem i see is that i think, given recent events, and the current administration, that there WILL BE more gun control. like it or not, people think there is a "gun show loophole". so we can either accept something like i recommend or what i think will happen is background checks required for all purchases, even face to face, with registration added on as a side effect. kinda like we live with every day in NJ

 

you seem to understand...

 

the liberal masses are saying "MORE GUN CONTROL" and I am saying OK if that is the case and some law IS going into effect.. lets at least take a look at something that is somewhat created in logic.. and fight the hard fight on things that are totally ridiculous...

 

perception is important..

 

"NOT ONE INCH" is going to be seen as the unwillingness to compromise.. at that point you get what you get...

 

my interest is to talk about things that do make sense..

 

"the existing laws are NOT working to keep us safe... so instead of making more nonsense laws that history has shown us do not work.. lets focus on things like creating a reasonable background check system.. harsher sentences for violent crimes... harsher penalties for those that participate in things like straw purchases... "

 

I would like to see us focus on things that maybe make some sense..

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To me, "Shall not be infringed" means, "shall not be infringed." I feel some who lived in New Jersey have become numb to what this really means. Most gun owners I assosciate with are proponents of personal responsibility. Why should I be restricted in selling my personal property? Do we want background checks on knife sales, bat sales, car sales? It's beyond my control what happens to my property once I sell it. If I were to sell a gun to someone and they use it in a crime, it's not the "non background checked gun" causing them to do it, it's their own sick mind. I fully believe they would have found another way, another gun to do it. If you really believe the bill of rights are unalienable, why would you compromise anything on them?

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To me, "Shall not be infringed" means, "shall not be infringed." I feel some who lived in New Jersey have become numb to what this really means. Most gun owners I assosciate with are proponents of personal responsibility. Why should I be restricted in selling my personal property? Do we want background checks on knife sales, bat sales, car sales? It's beyond my control what happens to my property once I sell it. If I were to sell a gun to someone and they use it in a crime, it's not the "non background checked gun" causing them to do it, it's their own sick mind. I fully believe they would have found another way, another gun to do it. If you really believe the bill of rights are unalienable, why would you compromise anything on them?

 

because verifying someone is not prohibited takes ten minutes of my time... and that ten minutes of my life is worth making sure the person I am selling to can legally have it..

you are right.. they could get it somewhere else.. they could use a knife... or a car filled with fertilizer.. but completing a background check takes literally 10 minutes tops..

 

you could even have a ridiculously simple system where you do a background check on yourself online and print out proof for that day.. it doesn't even have to confirm a sale... they would never know what the gun even was.. or if you even went through with it... at most they would see "joe smith did a background check for a gun purchase on this day"

 

that would keep them out of your business in detail.. but still allow some type of check prior to the sale..

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Vlad, you are a friggen tool.

 

Once again, please show me where face-to-face transfers cause crime? You can't.

 

And I like how you go to a website for info about guns, from the mayor of NYC. The most anti-gun person in the US. Idiot

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because there is a gun available?

 

http://www.mayorsaga..._Gun%202000.pdf

 

 

 

I get that you can twist and manipulate any facts you want... but the reality is a transaction in which you sell a firearm to someone without a background check IS the potential to sell to a criminal.. I really dont understand why any "responsible gun owner" would want to participate in an activity where they may be potentially selling a gun to someone that is not allowed to have one... again this is the reason that even though I am not forced to I only transfer through an FFL anymore.. at that point the individual has to have a background check and I have done my part to make sure the gun is going to a legitimate buyer...

 

your failure to understand that is mind boggling...

 

if the government misused background checks as a means to compile a database to come search your house and steal your guns.. then that is an entirely different issue.. one that has nothing to do with the issue at face value.. if you are really fearful of that you should probably delete all your online activity.. and climb into a hole somewhere.. since I am sure you mentioned on here at least once you had guns.. and I am sure the government could find you if they really wanted to..

 

 

 

 

what magic crystal ball are you using to decide if you "think" the person is a criminal... what awesome advice.. "just don't sell if you think they are a criminal" LMFAO

 

Okay, I didn't read any of that, but did you really just use a file from mayors against illegal guns, headed by some of the largest antigunners on the planet earth, to prove that we should restrict our rights? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but really?

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Vlad, you are a friggen tool.

 

Once again, please show me where face-to-face transfers cause crime? You can't.

 

And I like how you go to a website for info about guns, from the mayor of NYC. The most anti-gun person in the US. Idiot

 

this is the reason you fail..

 

I did not "go to a website from the mayor of NYC"... it is a report from the ATF.. it just happens to be hosted there..

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this is the reason you fail..

 

I did not "go to a website from the mayor of NYC"... it is a report from the ATF.. it just happens to be hosted there..

 

good bye, hypocrite

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"NOT ONE INCH" is going to be seen as the unwillingness to compromise.. at that point you get what you get...

 

..

 

Compromise? That implies that both sides give and get something. What you are proposing is not a compromise is a concession. That only leads to more concession called compromises.

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Okay, I didn't read any of that, but did you really just use a file from mayors against illegal guns, headed by some of the largest antigunners on the planet earth, to prove that we should restrict our rights? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but really?

 

again it is an ATF report.. that was just the first place I found it hosted..

it is just a report discussing that pretty much all guns start off as legal guns.. and it discusses how they end up being trafficked..

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Compromise? That implies that both sides give and get something. What you are proposing is not a compromise is a concession. That only leads to more concession called compromises.

 

I have said on numerous occasions that the existing ineffective rules need to be addressed as part of revamping gun laws completely..

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its ok.. I wouldn't expect you to actually read and try to understand.. instead it is far easier for you to just look and jump to conclusions... and then talk shit.. its all I ever really see you do anyway..

 

talk shit? or talk the truth? your a hypocrite. and you proved it.

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I'm not going to beat my head against this wall. People are comfortable with what they know. Many people from NJ and NY have all kinds of crazy ideas about how things should be for everyone else.

 

I think living in NJ and moving to PA is partially why I feel the way I do.. I have looked at what the laws were in NJ VS what they are here.. and I find things like mag restrictions really absurd... I know we all may think its impossible to remove existing laws.. but things like SBR.. suppressor laws.. are all silly.. like I said before I think we need to get rid of the laws that are NOT working.. and be open to legislation that may work..

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