Question: What exactly is the rationale for NJ basically giving automatic CCW status to retired police officers?

[TheSingularity 0]

Curious to hear your feedback on this one. Thanks!

[HuntingCelt 1]

During their career they might have locked up criminals that at some point get out of prison.

[TheSingularity 0]

Interesting - because my understanding is that retired/former (and even current) prosecuters in NJ are basically never approved for CCW permits (?). And those people very literally put people in prison as well.

[Foyt20 0]

If I am correct that is a federal program. I am assuming though.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[P4Plenty 1]

Its because they are higher class citizens than us peasants

[djg0770 481]

again? really?

[johnp 45]

Its because they are higher class citizens than us peasants

 

Bingo.

[TheSingularity 0]

My point is this: every argument that I've seen FOR the ability of retired cops getting CCWs in NJ, also equally applies to others who are routinely turned down for CCW.

 

Possibility of retaliation? Ok, then why not prosecuters?

 

Possibility of "helping out" in an emergency situation? Ok, then what about former military? Military reserves? Of basically any able-bodied person with a level head on their shoulders?

 

[TheSingularity 0]

Find flaw with my arguments. I submit to you - it is impossible.

[mustang69 505]

My guess is NJ needs to show there are some CCW's granted for the current "May Issue" provision of NJ law to pass muster with the 2nd amendment, so granting them to retired LEO is a "safe" group politically.

 

No bashing or jealousy - the retired LEO earned that right in my book, it's just a shame the rest of us don't have the same rights.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Until about 15 years or so ago they weren't allowed to carry once they retired. Then the retired chief of the Hanover PD was in Newark helping some elderly acquaintances that were visiting a relatives grave. Some gang bangers approached and tried to rob the elderly couple, he tried to intervene, but was unarmed and was shot and killed. That was the initial impetus to allow them to carry after retiring.

[TheSingularity 0]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think retired cops should be turned down for CCWs in NJ.

Nothing against retired cops, or current cops, by any stretch.

But with respect to CCW, the rationale for differentiating retired cops from most law abiding citizens is a complete fiction.

I am open to any valid points against my arguments. But there are none.

 

[P4Plenty 1]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think retired cops should be turned down for CCWs in NJ.

Nothing against retired cops, or current cops, by any stretch.

But with respect to CCW, the rationale for differentiating retired cops from most law abiding citizens is a complete fiction.

I am open to any valid points against my arguments. But there are none.

 

this

[High Exposure 5,661]

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

 

 

 

 

H.R.218: The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 

(Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

 

One Hundred Eighth Congress of the United States of America

 

AT THE SECOND SESSION

 

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the twentieth day of January, two thousand and four

 

An Act

 

To amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed handguns.

 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

 

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

 

This Act may be cited as the `Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004'.

 

 

 

SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

 

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

 

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

 

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

 

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

 

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

 

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

 

`© As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--

 

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

 

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

 

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

 

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

 

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

 

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

 

`(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.

 

`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--

 

`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

 

`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

 

`(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.

 

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926A the following:

 

`926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers.'.

 

 

 

SEC. 3. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

 

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is further amended by inserting after section 926B the following:

 

`Sec. 926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers

 

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

 

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

 

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

 

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

 

`© As used in this section, the term `qualified retired law enforcement officer' means an individual who--

 

`(1) retired in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer, other than for reasons of mental instability;

 

`(2) before such retirement, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest;

 

`(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more; or

 

`(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

 

`(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement plan of the agency;

 

`(5) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;

 

`(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

 

`(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

 

`(d) The identification required by this subsection is--

 

`(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

 

`(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer; and

 

`(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.

 

`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--

 

`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

 

`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

 

`(3) a destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.

 

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is further amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926B the following:

 

`926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers.'.

 

 

 

Speaker of the House of Representatives.

 

Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate.

[jackandjill 683]

Did Unions play any role to get retired LEOs ccw ?

 

Dont get me wrong, they need it, as is any other law abiding citizen.

Govt need boots on the ground to enforce laws and dont want to mess with police unions. That could be it.

On the other hand, rest of us, the peasants dont have anything to bargain with.

[TheSingularity 0]

Just to be clear, so I understand:

So NJ routinely grants CCWs to retired cops in order to comply with this FEDERAL law?

That is NJ's rationale?

I've got another federal law to highlight. It's called the 2nd amendment . And its plain language tells me that the regular people have the same right to bear arms that the "authorities" have.

[67gtonut 847]

Yes....... we agree..

 

As do the LEO's on this board....

 

Where are we going with this topic?

[TheSingularity 0]

I know there are LEOs on this board.

Those of them that agree with my thinking know that I mean them no disrespect.

I am not advocating for the playing field to be leveled by taking away the 2nd amendment rights that are rightly theirs.

Where am I going with this thread? I am not sure, but ANYWHERE is better, and more fair, than where we are.

Seems to me there are some very solid, rational arguments to be made in a legal context on this subject. While I am not the right person to make them, I just feel the need to point them out.

[GlassFanta 0]

Let's face it, most cops spend their entire careers giving out traffic tickets, maybe the occasional domestic call or bar fight. Hardly the type of individuals that are going to track you down and murder you twenty years later. "You got me 20 hours community service! I'm gonna find where you live and make you pay!" Seriously how is that an excuse?

 

If they worked vice squad, homocide, etc. then let them apply on a per-case basis and show why they have a need to carry a gun, and demonstrate that there is an imminent threat to their life. Just like the rest of us plebes have to do if we want a CCW.

 

Then, if they ever change the state's CCW laws one day, they can have one like the rest of us.

[ruger9 0]

During their career they might have locked up criminals that at some point get out of prison.

 

Not good enough. Retired cops should have no more rights or privileges than the rest of us serfs.

[TheSingularity 0]

Here is the core problem.

There is a perception, by many of the regular people in this country, that the "ruling class" wants to set the rules for the ordinary people, while never intending to be bound by these same rules themselves.

The fact that NJ routinely grants CCWs to retired LEOs is, I think, reasonably compelling evidence of this reality.

The message is: work for us, with us, as one of us, and we'll take care of you. We'll make sure you are taken care of - that you will be exempt from the rules that bind the regular people. It will be a "perk" of your job - you're with US.

Stepping back a little bit, and looking at the big picture, it's just a very, very corrosive policy for a government to have. It the type of thing that eats away at the trust people have in their government.

Find fault with that.

 

[ruger9 0]

TheSingularity,

 

Welcome! I am looking forward to more of your great, bullseye posts.

[TheSingularity 0]

Thank you!

I get very passionate when it comes to the 2nd amendment.

[djg0770 481]

Find flaw with my arguments. I submit to you - it is impossible.

 

You live in NJ - fatal flaw exposed.

[ruger9 0]

Thank you!

I get very passionate when it comes to the 2nd amendment.

 

You are among brothers.

[ruger9 0]

You live in NJ - fatal flaw exposed.

 

hehe... he got you there, and most of us are flawed in that way!

[Soju 153]

Its because they are higher class citizens than us peasants

Don't get me wrong, I don't think retired cops should be turned down for CCWs in NJ.

Nothing against retired cops, or current cops, by any stretch.

But with respect to CCW, the rationale for differentiating retired cops from most law abiding citizens is a complete fiction.

I am open to any valid points against my arguments. But there are none.

Not good enough. Retired cops should have no more rights or privileges than the rest of us serfs.

 

What these guys said.

 

The laws are for thee not for me...

[KpdPipes 388]

Did Unions play any role to get retired LEOs ccw ?

 

Dont get me wrong, they need it, as is any other law abiding citizen.

Govt need boots on the ground to enforce laws and dont want to mess with police unions. That could be it.

On the other hand, rest of us, the peasants dont have anything to bargain with.

 

Not really..it was brought up every year by the PBA and FOP and denied by the legislature..NJ was also one of the last states that did not automatically grant CCW to retired LEO's...the push to get HR 218 started was also part of the reason NJ had to change..it took, IIRC almost 10 years to finally get 218 passed

[deadeye74 5]

With all due respect to current and retired LEO's, can I ask why no one has tried to sue for discrimination?

 

I understand that retired LEO's have years of training and job experience that the majority of average people don't. However, once you are off the job, you are now citizen x like the rest of us. Doesn't CCW for retired LEOs to an extent say that NJ says their life is more valuable than everyone else? This is right in line with the NRA argument that if the elite have armed security why can't everyone's kids?

[TheSingularity 0]

Here is the way I think I would approach the legal argument.

NJ's routine granting of CCWs to retired LEOs has the effect of essentially setting the real-life, demonstrated standard for what constitutes "justifiable need."

So there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these examples that NJ has granted over the last several years.

And so, based on this mountain of real-life examples, "justifiable need" really means: you've dealt with the public in an official capacity that might have pissed off a couple of people who, hypothetically - and only hypothetically - might want to seek revenge some day.

If this is the true NJ justifiable need standard, then it opens up the CCW door for so many others.

The "other reasons" why NJ grants CCWs to retired LEOs - the "pat on the back for a career well done", the "look for our bat signal in case we ever need your help" - I say NJ wouldn't, and couldn't, admit that these were actually factors that influenced their CCW approval process. I think, in its defense, NJ would basically be forced to stay within the four corners of justifiable need, and to shove the square peg of all their retired-cop CCW approvals, into the round hole of justifiable need.