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msg73

ammo + fire = deadly???

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I don't have enough room in my safe for all my ammo, so I store them in a locked wooden cabinet. If I were to have a fire in my home, how dangerous would this be? Obviously, the ammo would blow up but would it be shooting bullets and case shrapnel to a point where it could be deadly? I would think that since there's nothing containing the pressure, the case would just blow off the bullet head.

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Most ammo only "cooks-off" in a fire, it doesn't blow-up! A cook-off happens when the case gets hot. The bullet head is usually many times heavier than the case itself, so the head almost "lays there" and the case goes flying "backwards". Sometimes the cases expand so much just prior to cook-off that no explosion or pop is even heard--just the fizzle of smokeless powder burning in the "open".

 

Black Powder loaded cartridges will "blow-up however!

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I don't think it would be shooting bullets all over the place. When a cartridge is inside the barrel it is actually a really tight fit so that the expanding gases would push the projectile forward with as much velocity as possible. If it just explodes in the open air the projectile won't go very far with much velocity.

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Most ammo only "cooks-off" in a fire, it doesn't blow-up! A cook-off happens when the case gets hot. The bullet head is usually many times heavier than the case itself, so the head almost "lays there" and the case goes flying "backwards".

 

+1. This is exactly what happens. You are fine.

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THANKS FOR POSTING!

 

And to all those interested in this thread, please take note that only 16% of the rounds cooked-off, and the deepest hole (made by the case head) was measured to only break the skin. Also note that not a single piece of wood was knocked-over by any of the impacts from the cases, since they don't weigh too much.........not even a .50 BMG case could knock-over any of the wood!

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Plus if your ammo cooks off, most fire fighters won't do interior operations until it stops popping. Like some people mentioned before, put them in ammo cans, or if you want to fit a lot into one space, get a foot locker.

 

You assume that the ammo cooks off prior to the FF's making entry.. or that the pops would be heard over the other sounds from outside at the truck/CP. Even in the vid above the range from the fire to the foam was pretty small (camp-fire-sized). A FF crew is probably not going to be that close to something that hot w/out putting water on it. In general I'm not too worried about loose ammo cooking off in a fire, chances are the FF gear would stop it even if the ammo was not in a container.

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http://my.firefighternation.com/m/discussion?id=889755%3ATopic%3A4568957

 

A sealed ammo can would actually more potential risk then leaving them out in the open. Although unlikely, ammo heated in a sealed container has the potential for the inside reaching its flammable limit exerting pressure on its container to cause an abrupt container failure. This would not necessarily explode like you would expect.. more likely increasing the possibility of getting hit with a portion of the container. Again, highly unlikely but still in the realm of possible. Just as you should not should not store large quantities of powder in your safe. Sealed vessel + anything highly flammable will not end well for those around it.

 

Ive been to a fire that has taken out neighboring homes windows with chambered rounds from two handguns. While the presence of burning ammo may not be a true hazard, it is an implication of underlying hazards i.e. the potential for loaded, unprotected weapons, which would prompt me to ask the homeowner (if possible) of the extent and location of his firearms and or reloading powder. M3rely the presence of burning ammo should not shut down fire attack unless any additional hazards are discovered. Stay safe brothers ;)

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You assume that the ammo cooks off prior to the FF's making entry.. or that the pops would be heard over the other sounds from outside at the truck/CP. Even in the vid above the range from the fire to the foam was pretty small (camp-fire-sized). A FF crew is probably not going to be that close to something that hot w/out putting water on it. In general I'm not too worried about loose ammo cooking off in a fire, chances are the FF gear would stop it even if the ammo was not in a container.

 

As a firefighter, hearing popping of ammunition has stopped my crew from going into a burning building. I've heard it before, it is definitely audible from the front door of the house. Outside, not as much as you've got the trucks running, people on the radio, air packs whistling etc.

 

That being said, we won't enter until the "popcorn" has stopped popping. We don't know if those rounds are just in packaging or if they are chambered in a gun. The longer they keep popping off, the longer it takes for us to get inside and put the fire out, causing more damage to your home.

 

So...personally, I keep ammo in a fireproof(1 hour) lock box, just because I want firefighters to make entry and get the fire out ASAP, minimizing damage to my home.

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My 2 cents.

 

I can tell you if we roll up to a structure fire and there is ammo cooking off - we are not going in - period.

 

The fastest, most efficient way to put out a typical single family structure fire is to get inside and push the fire out.

If rounds are cooking and we are not going in the next step is a defensive operation. That usually results in a sizable loss.

 

Keep in mind we will have to assume that if there is ammo cooking off, the the odds are pretty good that there are firearms in the building.

And if you are reading this the odds are pretty good that some of those firearms have ammo in them. If a round is chambered and it cooks off - well it is not myth buster as to what happens.

And there is the assumption that if there is a sizable amount of stored ammo the odds are also good that there will be cans of powder and boxes of primers.

 

There also seems to be mixed info on which is safer, ammo stored as you buy it, or stored in sealed 50 cal cans. With the cans possibly being more of a hazard.

 

If your house is burning and your ammo is cooking off, we'll wait for the pop corn to stop.

 

That all said - I don't have an answer for you for the best storage, other then in a quality safe or off site.

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Who is to say once the "popcorn" stops means that the fire has yet to reach a loaded firearm? So the ammunition fire, which SAAMI has shown is more of a factor to consider then a show stopper will alter your strategies regardless of the circumstances?

 

A loaded weapon is an important factor, but an unknown. Just as trying to push out a garage fire from in the house could expose you to flammable/explosive contents contained within. Im willing to bet a decent number of structures you have fought have contained a loaded firearm and you never knew it. It is a hazard no doubt, but the potential risk factor decreases when you factor in the variables..i.e. presence of ammo = guns=loaded guns=location of guns=storage of guns=position of stored guns=location in regards to the ammo and so on.

 

I guess it is at the discretion of each IC to make the decision, but my thoughts are that ammo being cooked off is not a reason to go defensive out of the gate. It would be akin to going defensive on all basement fires because the first floor *might* be compromised.

 

*Also the presence of a large quantity of ammo does not necessarily mean there are reloading supplies present.(which again primers igniting in the SAAMI video do not propagate from one to another)Unfortunately I have yet to see what say 8 lbs of primer would do if set ablaze but I would think that would fuel a fire like flammable hazmats as opposed to the effects of a bomb.

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Only watched a short bit of the SAAMI fire as my desktop has no sound. Saving it for training day.

 

Every fire is unique. And if there is a fire in the basement and there is ammo in the basement and it is cooking off - we are not going in the basement. You would? Remember - save a lot - risk a lot, save little - risk little.

Ever been to a fire with ammo going off?

 

"I guess it is at the discretion of each IC to make the decision, but my thoughts are that ammo being cooked off is not a reason to go defensive out of the gate. It would be akin to going defensive on all basement fires because the first floor *might* be compromised"

 

Those are two scenarios that are not the same and require different tactics - unless they are combined.

 

I didn't say that large quantities of ammo means there are reloading supplies, I said we can assume that the odds are good, until proven otherwise.

I really don't think several boxes of primers would be a real problem, other then the additional fuel load primers and powder would give us over and above what would be normal in a typical household.

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The 'cook off' is what I thought would happen. While I keep some guns with loaded mags, I don't chamber them for this exact reason (round going off in a fire). I also agree that keeping too much ammo in a sealed ammo-can may also build up too much pressure. The ammo is in my basement so it seems that anyone in the house would be fine in the event of a fire. Thanks.

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Essentially the SAAMI video burns up 252k of ammunition in a tractor trailer with a firefighter standing 10 ft in front of it in turnouts and an airpack. They also light up a mock gun store with a large quantity of ammo and make a knockdown.

 

The basement scenario I stated is separate of an ammo fire.. the argument being that the risk of floor compromise is there just as the risk of a loaded gun being in a home at any structure fire.

 

An ammo fire being as benign as it is in the video, poses a small risk in the scheme of things. Every fire is in fact different, but I do not see cooking ammo as a reason to go defensive...

 

Your mileage may vary and again, it is the IC's call and viewpoints and experience on this subject varies greatly as it is not a common occurrence. Risk vs Benefit goes hand in hand with knowing the enemy you are up against.

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I don't blame firefighters from not going in.

 

It's very unlikely that any ammo it any type of can will be an issue. Not all cartridges in a ammo box are going to cook off at the same time. A thousand little Piffszt will not cause a can to explode. If the can is airtight, after 1 or 2 cook offs, there will be no air in the box to allow any more cook offs.

 

The valid reason is that a house with ammo cooking off, probably has at least one loaded gun in there. A revolver may explode, if a round not lined with the chamber cooks off. Any semi-auto stands the risk of firing every round in its magazine and those rounds can/will cause serious damage.

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Any semi-auto stands the risk of firing every round in its magazine and those rounds can/will cause serious damage.

 

is this statement true? I didn't watch the whole vid...

 

I never considered this.

 

I guess it might be prevented with a safety that mechanically blocks the slide from cycling? (Like a 1911)

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Any semi-auto stands the risk of firing every round in its magazine and those rounds can/will cause serious damage.

 

is this statement true? I didn't watch the whole vid...

 

Only if the weapon is secured somehow. Without the frame being securely fastened, the gun would jam on the first shot(think, weak-wristing).

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