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Can a NJ resident buy a 20 round mag online and block it at home.

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To make it even MORE complicated (LOL)...I *HEARD* (i say that to cover my rear) is that they are actually treated as handguns by the ATF. Further complicates things.

 

All I know is many people i know have taken transfer of them in the state of NJ with collapsible stocks. Just pin them properly before mounting to an upper. That's all.

 

Plenty of people purchased AO m1 carbines from NJ FFLs as well, but those transactions weren't legal, according to the AG, and they all had to be returned.

 

We only need to fill out a COE for a stripped lower (btw, it is the PA state police that treat a stripped lower as a handgun, which is why we can't buy them in PA anymore), making them a rifle in NJ's eyes. The substantially identical clause in the definition of an assault firearm, as written by the AG's office, says:

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

 

a folding or telescoping stock;

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

a bayonet mount;

a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

a grenade launcher;

 

A stripped lower with a pistol grip and telescoping stock fits that description, even without an upper.

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Plenty of people purchased AO m1 carbines from NJ FFLs as well, but those transactions weren't legal, according to the AG, and they all had to be returned.

 

We only need to fill out a COE for a stripped lower (btw, it is the PA state police that treat a stripped lower as a handgun, which is why we can't buy them in PA anymore), making them a rifle in NJ's eyes. The substantially identical clause in the definition of an assault firearm, as written by the AG's office, says:

 

A stripped lower with a pistol grip and telescoping stock fits that description, even without an upper.

 

Except its not a "rifle"

 

It's an expensive paper weight.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/45143-legality-of-receiving-a-complete-lower-with-collapsible-stock/

 

And within that post, straight from an FFL

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/45143-legality-of-receiving-a-complete-lower-with-collapsible-stock/page__view__findpost__p__595169

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We only need to fill out a COE for a stripped lower (btw, it is the PA state police that treat a stripped lower as a handgun, which is why we can't buy them in PA anymore), making them a rifle in NJ's eyes.  

 

You might want to get an update on that.  There was some confusion with PASP, but it's certainly not the case now.  The confusion was over virgin, stripped lowers, which are considered "Other" by ATF.  PSP tried to tell FFLs that meant they had to be transferred as handguns, but that was bs, and few FFLs bothered to listen to them.  Regardless, it was resolved rather quickly.  That being said, I have no idea about people from Jersey buying AR lowers - you are on your own there.  Just that nobody in PA, including PASP, treats AR lowers as handguns at this time.  Unless they are stupid.

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Except its not a "rifle"

 

It's an expensive paper weight.

 

http://njgunforums.c...lapsible-stock/

 

And within that post, straight from an FFL

 

http://njgunforums.c...post__p__595169

 

OK, then your scenario is legal because NJ does define a rifle under 2C:39.

 

m. "Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

 

I figured I was missing something, but I wasn't sure what. I've said it before, you learn something new every day.

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You might want to get an update on that. There was some confusion with PASP, but it's certainly not the case now. The confusion was over virgin, stripped lowers, which are considered "Other" by ATF. PSP tried to tell FFLs that meant they had to be transferred as handguns, but that was bs, and few FFLs bothered to listen to them. Regardless, it was resolved rather quickly. That being said, I have no idea about people from Jersey buying AR lowers - you are on your own there. Just that nobody in PA, including PASP, treats AR lowers as handguns at this time. Unless they are stupid.

 

Yes^

 

This is now correct. I couldn't think of the state that had the problem with lowers. The ATF had an ambiguous law regarding the purpose of which the AR lower was to be used for, pistol or rifle. That confusion lead the PASP to come up with their own law which they later found out was a problem and amended it.

 

And BigHayden, you can COE lots of rifles/shotguns.

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You might want to get an update on that. There was some confusion with PASP, but it's certainly not the case now. The confusion was over virgin, stripped lowers, which are considered "Other" by ATF. PSP tried to tell FFLs that meant they had to be transferred as handguns, but that was bs, and few FFLs bothered to listen to them. Regardless, it was resolved rather quickly. That being said, I have no idea about people from Jersey buying AR lowers - you are on your own there. Just that nobody in PA, including PASP, treats AR lowers as handguns at this time. Unless they are stupid.

 

Yeah, I knew were the confusion came from, though I didn't know that it had been resolved. I just wanted to point out where the "lowers as handguns" kerfuffle came from; the PASP and not the ATF.

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That distinguishes between "temporarily blocked" (meaning: pull the plate off, slip a block, in done) and "permanently altered". That basically defines that magazines rendered less than 15 rounds using the former method. There they state that if you have a 30 round magazine with a blocked squeezed in, it's not going to cut it anymore. You'll now need to permanently alter the follower, floorplate, or body to accept no more than 15 rounds.

 

Think about it this way: You order a lower with a collapsible stock (not illegal). The second that lower is pinned on to an upper it's illegal. The PARTS of an AR15 are not illegal. Same with magazines. A disassembled firearm does not function as a firearm. A disassembled magazine does not function as a magazine. Simple as that. It does not feed, does not do so continuously, and holds zero rounds.

 

I will agree that making a habit or practice of skirting the legality of something is not smart.

 

Now if you read NY law. They use the language of "Can be converted or rebuilt too". This is more liberal language defining what constitutes an actual magazine.

 

Like I said, no one should make a practice of owning illegal things. However, i know of people who ordered parts kits (specifically AK) and welded a rod to the follower making it legal. That according to their definition would be legal.

 

I do not believe your conclusion to be accurate.... a prohibited rifle is a collection of parts, not simply one part... a "collapsible stock, detachable mag, and pistol grip" in itself is not illegal because for all we know it could be mated to a non semi auto upper.. making the whole point moot....

 

the magazine issue is entirely different... the state has openly stated.. unless you render a magazine unable to accept more than 15 rounds in a permanent capacity it is illegal...

blocking the mag is not a permanent modification to the magazine...

taking the magazine apart is not permanent...

 

both of these conditions are temporary... you can have all the faith in the world that you are good to go.... but just understand... if an overzealous police officer makes the arrest... and an anti 2a prosecutor picks up the case.. and they put the magazine together in front of a jury... to show that it is capable of accepting more than 15 rounds.. my guess is you will lose...by your reasoning you could have a SBR AR upper with flash hider... sitting next to your lower with collapsible stock.. simply because they are not assembled...

 

you can't have mags with capacity greater than 15 rounds in NJ.. the only work around is to permanently modify them to accept no more than 15 rounds.. taking them apart is not permanent.. so that is why IMO "parts kits for mags" are not legal..

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I do not believe your conclusion to be accurate.... a prohibited rifle is a collection of parts, not simply one part... a "collapsible stock, detachable mag, and pistol grip" in itself is not illegal because for all we know it could be mated to a non semi auto upper.. making the whole point moot....

 

the magazine issue is entirely different... the state has openly stated.. unless you render a magazine unable to accept more than 15 rounds in a permanent capacity it is illegal...

blocking the mag is not a permanent modification to the magazine...

taking the magazine apart is not permanent...

 

both of these conditions are temporary... you can have all the faith in the world that you are good to go.... but just understand... if an overzealous police officer makes the arrest... and an anti 2a prosecutor picks up the case.. and they put the magazine together in front of a jury... to show that it is capable of accepting more than 15 rounds.. my guess is you will lose...by your reasoning you could have a SBR AR upper with flash hider... sitting next to your lower with collapsible stock.. simply because they are not assembled...

 

you can't have mags with capacity greater than 15 rounds in NJ.. the only work around is to permanently modify them to accept no more than 15 rounds.. taking them apart is not permanent.. so that is why IMO "parts kits for mags" are not legal..

 

I do agree with your reasoning. We both make valid points on this. I think the bottomline is that its not a smart/safe thing to do. However, if someone were to take receipt of a parts kit, they shouldn't just have it sitting there for months in a non-compliant manner. It's just not smart.

 

Basically:

 

I'll agree to disagree that the way the law is written makes parts kits illegal.

I'll agree with you that in all likelihood if one were to be caught in a problematic situation the law would be interpreted unfavorably against the person possessing the parts kit.

 

One caveat being it's never "Police just happened to wander into the suspects home and found an unassembled parts kit". It's usually "Police responded to a domestic violence dispute with shots fired and found several high capacity magazines."

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One caveat being it's never "Police just happened to wander into the suspects home and found an unassembled parts kit". It's usually "Police responded to a domestic violence dispute with shots fired and found several high capacity magazines."

 

IOW, it's only illegal if you get caught. :rofl:

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I do agree with your reasoning. We both make valid points on this. I think the bottomline is that its not a smart/safe thing to do. However, if someone were to take receipt of a parts kit, they shouldn't just have it sitting there for months in a non-compliant manner. It's just not smart.

 

Basically:

 

I'll agree to disagree that the way the law is written makes parts kits illegal.

I'll agree with you that in all likelihood if one were to be caught in a problematic situation the law would be interpreted unfavorably against the person possessing the parts kit.

 

One caveat being it's never "Police just happened to wander into the suspects home and found an unassembled parts kit". It's usually "Police responded to a domestic violence dispute with shots fired and found several high capacity magazines."

 

ever have a box "come apart" in shipping? I have... anything can happen.. and I just dont think the payoff is worth the risk...

I am never one to site law that does not exist.. I am not one to recommend being overly cautious..

 

my biggest hold up is I feel the state will always resort back to the word "capable"... and by that I do not even mean readily capable... meaning they will likely state "this magazine is capable of holding more than 15 rounds... it has simply been temporarily disassembled.. but there is nothing stopping it from holding more than 15 rounds.." magazines are taken apart at times to clean and service them... there is nothing preventing the magazine from holding more than 15 rounds.. unless of course you permanently modify it..

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This is a very complicated subject.

 

No it isnt... Possession of a magazine with a cpacity of over 15 rounds is an Indictable Offense..Period. NJ doesnt have a provision for "Parts Kits" If you get caught with the magazine you are Gephucked...Period. If you want to take that chance, it's on You (Speaking in general, not to Swoosh)

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with all due respect, we are preaching to ourselves and not resolving any issues. What we need to do is start some process to get these ridicules laws changed so that our Constitutional rights are no longer infringed upon. I cant believe its been going on for this long....

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with all due respect, we are preaching to ourselves and not resolving any issues. What we need to do is start some process to get these ridicules laws changed so that our Constitutional rights are no longer infringed upon. I cant believe its been going on for this long....

 

while I totally agree.. I think the context of this thread was "what is legal now so I don't get in trouble" lol

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Sorry to add to this but what is the definition of permanant? Do they give a secific manner that has to be used?

 

The dictionary defines permanent as would a jury of your peers. If you are on a jury, how would you define it?

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OK, im reading through this, and im still confused...

 

if i buy a gun that comes with a 16 round mag, and I have it sent to an FFL, that FFL can pin the mag to a legally acceptable 15 round limit and i can then take possession of that gun with the "now NJ legal 15 round mag".. is this correct?

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OK, im reading through this, and im still confused...

 

if i buy a gun that comes with a 16 round mag, and I have it sent to an FFL, that FFL can pin the mag to a legally acceptable 15 round limit and i can then take possession of that gun with the "now NJ legal 15 round mag".. is this correct?

 

yes...

 

 

here is the NJ issue...

 

in NJ you may not legally have a magazine that is capable of feeding more than 15 rounds..

 

capable being the word of concern... a magazine with a block in it and no other modifications could easily have the block removed.. the concern is the mag itself is still able to hold more than 15 rounds...

a disassembled magazine could easily be put back together and have the capability of accepting more than 15 rounds..

 

a magazine with a block in it.. and a welded floor plate.. can not simply be taken apart... and taking the mag apart would likely damage it to the point where it could no longer be used.. that mag IMO would not be capable of holding more than 15 rounds...

 

the law is slightly vague.. but there have been statements indicating the spirit of the law is to deny you a magazine that can EVER hold more than 15 rounds..

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yes...

 

 

here is the NJ issue...

 

in NJ you may not legally have a magazine that is capable of feeding more than 15 rounds..

 

capable being the word of concern... a magazine with a block in it and no other modifications could easily have the block removed.. the concern is the mag itself is still able to hold more than 15 rounds...

a disassembled magazine could easily be put back together and have the capability of accepting more than 15 rounds..

 

a magazine with a block in it.. and a welded floor plate.. can not simply be taken apart... and taking the mag apart would likely damage it to the point where it could no longer be used.. that mag IMO would not be capable of holding more than 15 rounds...

 

the law is slightly vague.. but there have been statements indicating the spirit of the law is to deny you a magazine that can EVER hold more than 15 rounds..

 

This sucks. The argument could be made that if you welded the foot plate on a 30 rounder blocked to 15, you could always cut the bottom off and put a new foot plate so that it holds 28 or 29 rounds.

 

The dictionary defines permanent as would a jury of your peers. If you are on a jury, how would you define it?

lol, I want to know what the state police think permanent means before I find out what a jury thinks.

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This sucks. The argument could be made that if you welded the foot plate on a 30 rounder blocked to 15, you could always cut the bottom off and put a new foot plate so that it holds 28 or 29 rounds.

 

lol, I want to know what the state police think permanent means before I find out what a jury thinks.

 

 

This sucks. The argument could be made that if you welded the foot plate on a 30 rounder blocked to 15, you could always cut the bottom off and put a new foot plate so that it holds 28 or 29 rounds.

 

lol, I want to know what the state police think permanent means before I find out what a jury thinks.

 

what the state police thinks is moot.. what the prosecutor and jury think is far more important...

 

just to make it even more simple...

 

think about the mindset of the people that created the law in NJ...

 

the idea is to limit your access to magazines that hold more than 15 rounds..

the idea is to completely remove them.. as there is no provision for grandfathering...

 

the idea is you buy mags that have a capacity of 15 or less...

 

well then people say what if I have 30 round magazines already?

 

when you get to that point... you have to go back to the beginning.. and think about the point of the law and the intended impact.. the impact being to remove magazines that have the ability to hold more than 15 rounds.. PERIOD...

 

the only way to comply with that is to

buy 15 round magazines...

or change magazines with a higher capacity into magazines that ONLY can hold 15.. the only way IMO to do this is to create a permanent alteration... similar to welding a brake onto the barrel... the carrel comes threaded... if you weld a brake on there.. it is pretty reasonable to say you have made a permanent change to that barrel... if you block a 30 round magazine.. and weld (metal), or epoxy (plastic) the floor plate back on.. so that trying to change it would break the magazine... would also IMO create a situation where it is reasonable to say you have made a permanent change...

 

I am not a lawyer.. but I have spent a lot of time reading.. and in general.. it just seems that a permanently modded mag down to 15 is OK... a parts kit or temporarily modded mag may get you in trouble...

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what the state police thinks is moot.. what the prosecutor and jury think is far more important...

 

 

I want to make it so that I never see a prosecutor or jury bc then it is too late. Life is destroyed by that point.

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I want to make it so that I never see a prosecutor or jury bc then it is too late. Life is destroyed by that point.

 

then only cross in cross walks... drive 5 mph under the speed limit for the rest of your life.. only shoot traditional guns with wooden stocks.. and so on..

 

if you are following the law.. you are not living on the edge..

 

= )

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Actually you cannot legally block, pin or otherwise alter your own magazines without an FFL which specifically licenses you as a "manufacturer". At least according to the ATF agent that went over my federal license requirements. Specifically she was instructing me on what I could or could not do once I received my FFL.

 

Uhh take a second and think. They weren't telling you what you can't do to your stuff, they were telling you what you can't do to stuff for sale to others.

 

Short of making title 2 items, the batfe tends to stay out of what you do to your own private gear.

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I have a question similar to the discussion at hand. I can fit 16 rounds into my factory unmodified glock 19 magazines. Anybody else able to do this? Should i get them pinned?

 

how many rounds are they designed to hold?

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