100 people answer in 120 ways. What makes a 30 round mag NJ legal???

[MPA 0]

Ok guys, is a rivet in the front face enough? Is a pin in the floorplate with a block in the spring the way to go? Do you still have to glue it?

Is three rivet enough if one isnt? And here is the important part! Where did you get your answer??

[2ANJ 0]

There are many different types of mags (metal/polymer) also with floor plates (removeable/welded or fixed) be more specific.

[Lalo 13]

I think the main focus of the law is to permanently alter the magazine to fit 15 rounds. I don't think there is anything specifically mentioned in the law that tells you HOW to permanently modify it, just that it needs to be permanently modified. Personally, I think a pin through the floor plate with a mag block in place is enough.

[2ANJ 0]

 

Hope this helps ya out.

[Candide 0]

Lets say you buy a 30 round pmag. Replace the locking plate with one that has the extra material in it to keep the follower from going down past 15 rounds and then toss out the old locking plate you now have a mag that holds 15 rounds. You can't convert it back unless you have the correct part. In essence it's just a long 15 round mag.

 

If you wanted to glue or pin the floorplate on you could. I hate doing that since you can't take apart or clean a mag though.

 

magazineblocks.com has em.

 

Yes I know, you are all going to say... Its not permanent unless you glue or pin it! Point is its a 15 round mag once you replace the locking plate.

[BlueLineFish 615]

The problem is having the 30 rounders in your possession at any time is illegal. I am working on this situation now

[Candide 0]

The problem is having the 30 rounders in your possession at any time is illegal. I am working on this situation now

 

Only illegal inside NJ.

 

Not that it's right but a lot of people will get them and then convert them in their house. It really isn't a big deal unless you get caught. It's up to the person to decide if the reward is worth the risk.

 

You could order the locking plate ahead of time, drive to PA, buy 30 round mags, swap out the plate with the block while you eat at a diner, drive home. If my friend didn't live in Philly thats what I'd do.

[leadunderpressure 52]

You can legally own a 30 round magazine if you have a NJ registered assault weapon. My guess us those guy and guys could legally bring n more magazines and convert them. How many NJ assault weapons are left in the state?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[vladtepes 1,060]

here is the situation... to make it very simple...

 

ANY mag that has the ability to accept more than 15 rounds that can feed a semi auto gun in NJ is illegal.. period..

the mag is completely and totally illegal as in the NJ gov does NOT want you to have them...

NJ state has already stated that ANY large capacity mag that has been temporarily modified in any way is STILL a large capacity mag and thus still illegal..

 

here is the scary part.. there is NO standard given by the state as to what IS OK.. only what is not OK..

 

so if you take the situation at face value.. you know the following..

 

*large capacity mags are illegal and totally forbidden in NJ..

*temporary modifications (non permanent modifications) do not satisfy the law... and are STILL illegal..

 

this leads us to the understanding that the mag is ONLY OK if it is no longer a large capacity mag.. in that the ability to accept more than 15 rounds has been totally removed.. this is where permanent modification comes into play...

 

a pin... a rivet.. 15 rivets.. is not permanent as it can be undone..

 

permanent is blocking the mag... and welding the shit out of the mag so trying to remove the block would destroy the mag and make it not function.. thus it is no longer a large capacity mag..

 

 

 

there is no hard answer.. it is necessary to draw a logical conclusion based on facts.. and the facts are the intention of the law is to deny you access to a magazine that can in ANY way hold more than 15 rounds..

 

** when I say illegal I am talking about general use.. not LEO.. FFL.. etc..

[johnp 45]

Has anyone here ever had their magazines inspected by someone of "authority" to ensure that they were in fact permanently modified?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Has anyone here ever had their magazines inspected by someone of "authority" to ensure that they were in fact permanently modified?

 

I have not.. I have also seen people at certain ranges with guns that were obviously assault weapons under NJ law... and they went on to enjoy freedom.. but then you have guys like brian aitken who almost lost a lot of freedom over one round (16 VS 15 round mags)

 

my point is all it takes is the wrong cop.. the wrong range officer.. on the wrong day.. the law is easy enough to follow..

 

don't own large cap mags...

or

own large cap mags that have been permanently modified to no longer be large cap mags..

 

no advantage to trying to skirt the law and split hairs...

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

here is the situation... to make it very simple...

 

ANY mag that has the ability to accept more than 15 rounds that can feed a semi auto gun in NJ is illegal.. period..

the mag is completely and totally illegal as in the NJ gov does NOT want you to have them...

NJ state has already stated that ANY large capacity mag that has been temporarily modified in any way is STILL a large capacity mag and thus still illegal..

 

here is the scary part.. there is NO standard given by the state as to what IS OK.. only what is not OK..

 

so if you take the situation at face value.. you know the following..

 

*large capacity mags are illegal and totally forbidden in NJ..

*temporary modifications (non permanent modifications) do not satisfy the law... and are STILL illegal..

 

this leads us to the understanding that the mag is ONLY OK if it is no longer a large capacity mag.. in that the ability to accept more than 15 rounds has been totally removed.. this is where permanent modification comes into play...

 

a pin... a rivet.. 15 rivets.. is not permanent as it can be undone..

 

permanent is blocking the mag... and welding the shit out of the mag so trying to remove the block would destroy the mag and make it not function.. thus it is no longer a large capacity mag..

 

 

 

there is no hard answer.. it is necessary to draw a logical conclusion based on facts.. and the facts are the intention of the law is to deny you access to a magazine that can in ANY way hold more than 15 rounds..

 

** when I say illegal I am talking about general use.. not LEO.. FFL.. etc..

I have to disagree to a point. One can weld the hell out of a mag after cutting it to accept 15rds. What if a person cuts of the welded bottom and then trims the bottom of the follower to accept an additional round? I believe that the "reasonable person" standard as to apply. One can argue that there is always a way to make a mag non-compliant. There is no true "permanent" way to modify a mag beyond the means of everyone.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I have to disagree to a point. One can weld the hell out of a mag after cutting it to accept 15rds. What if a person cuts of the welded bottom and then trims the bottom of the follower to accept an additional round? I believe that the "reasonable person" standard as to apply. One can argue that there is always a way to make a mag non-compliant. There is no true "permanent" way to modify a mag beyond the means of everyone.

 

the state has specifically said that a temporary modification is not adequate...

 

a rivet that can be drilled out is temporary.. in that nothing additional needs to be done to the mag to make it work.. simply break out the rivet..

 

a mag that is blocked down to 15 and welded.. sure can be remade into a 30 round mag.. but a spring and a stock of sheet metal can be made into a 100 round mag.. but at that point you are building something different.. you are taking an item that is not a large capacity magazine and making it into one.. in the instance of something like a rivet.. arguing that you have permanently modified the magazine is going to be far more difficult..

[johnp 45]

Reading through this thread I don't see anyone trying to skirt the law or split hairs at all. OP simply asked for a clear definition of permanently modified.

 

And I just asked a question out of curiosity because I have never heard of anyone getting jammed up because even thou their magazine only held 15rds. it wasn't welded, epoxied, glued, and stapled. (Aside from everyone's favorite/only example Brian Aitken).

 

 

IMO, people worry way to much about permanently modifying mags, as long as it can not hold more then 15rds, the chances of you somehow getting jammed up, because you don't have x numbers of rivets in the mag, are astronomical.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Reading through this thread I don't see anyone trying to skirt the law or split hairs at all. OP simply asked for a clear definition of permanently modified.

 

And I just asked a question out of curiosity because I have never heard of anyone getting jammed up because even thou their magazine only held 15rds. it wasn't welded, epoxied, glued, and stapled. (Aside from everyone's favorite/only example Brian Aitken).

 

 

IMO, people worry way to much about permanently modifying mags, as long as it can not hold more then 15rds, the chances of you somehow getting jammed up, because you don't have x numbers of rivets in the mag, are astronomical.

 

I think that when you offer legal advice even with not being a lawyer you should do so with the clearest spirit of the law in mind.. it is important that you remember you are enjoying a hobby in a very anti gun climate.. the point of this being that while a case has never been made.. that does not mean one would not be... I feel like if the state openly conveys the message that temporary modifications are no good... it is only logical to assume temporary modifications are no good..

 

you are left with looking at a modification and deciding if it is temporary or not...

 

unless of course you don't care what position the state takes on the matter.. if that is the case they just stick a block in there... a rivet is no more permanent than a block..

 

I am not into following laws that do not exist.. and I have always fully stood by the whole "can it fit more than 15 rounds as it sits" as being the test.. but then I started to read more and see that the intention was more to disallow them completely.. and the intention was to absolutely not allow anything temporary..

[O-gre 7]

Would like to hear from Paul on this!

[MPA 0]

Great discussion. Lots of input. So does anybody know if the state has provided any actual input. Is there law or clarification/ directive/ explaination/ attorney genersl input. Anything in print st all other than the one statement in the statuate about the box, tube etc???

[MPA 0]

Obviously midwest px feels thier profuct is legal. This is pinned mag with block. Why do they do it yhis way? Does anyone know? They must be bading thier process on something? No?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Great discussion. Lots of input. So does anybody know if the state has provided any actual input. Is there law or clarification/ directive/ explaination/ attorney genersl input. Anything in print st all other than the one statement in the statuate about the box, tube etc???

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine."

 

a mag that has been permanently modified.... is no longer a large cap mag..

permanent.. as in intended to stay that way forever...

 

a mag that has been temporarily modified.. is STILL a large cap mag...

temporary... as in not permanent... as in reversible..

 

the intent is fairly clear.. they do not want you to have mags where if you so decided one Sunday afternoon.. you could easily convert them back to large capacity mags.. that is why there is language about how they can legally be modified..

[MPA 0]

We are closing in on it now. So if i want to make a midwest px mag back yo a 30, i drill the pin, remove block, reinstall plate. 5 min.

Are they legal?

[MPA 0]

Dors it depend on whether i throw out the old locking plate. Can i otder new ones?

[vladtepes 1,060]

We are closing in on it now. So if i want to make a midwest px mag back yo a 30, i drill the pin, remove block, reinstall plate. 5 min.

Are they legal?

 

I am not 100% confident that an out of state retailer has to conform to NJ for magazines since they are controlled on the state level.....

 

at the end of the day it is you that has to be comfortable.. I was simply stating while I was in NJ I followed that wording to the letter (once I knew the wording)..

 

I am simply providing it to you in the context that it is written..

lots of guys just have pinned mags.. and they swear it is legal.. and they probably will never see an issue with them.. my point is simply that given the right circumstances.. they could given the wording of the law.. and I would personally err on the side of caution and make sure the mag is permanently modded..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Dors it depend on whether i throw out the old locking plate. Can i otder new ones?

 

 

it only depends on the wording..

 

is the modification temporary.. or permanent..

[iRescue 0]

I think the question here is the word "permanent". (feel like Bill Clinton right now)

 

But, I guess NJ leaves us to define what a permanent modification means. It seems simple at the surface right? Make it so it can never again accept more than 15 rounds. But what modification ensures no legal trouble?

 

At what point do we go from reversing capacity limit to construction of a new mag - when a Leo or prosecutor says we have ability to make mag hold more than 15.

[Celraysoda 7]

Has anyone here ever had their magazines inspected by someone of "authority" to ensure that they were in fact permanently modified?

 

Yes but not by choice. I was at Bullet Hole with 15/30 double stacks with my WASR. Felt a tap on my shoulder and so it began. Was asked to the side while a fellow shooter who probably was some sort of LEO inspected them.

[johnp 45]

Yes but not by choice. I was at Bullet Hole with 15/30 double stacks with my WASR. Felt a tap on my shoulder and so it began. Was asked to the side while a fellow shooter who probably was some sort of LEO inspected them.

 

Why didn't you just tell said person my mags are legal fugg off?

[Candide 0]

 

 

Yes but not by choice. I was at Bullet Hole with 15/30 double stacks with my WASR. Felt a tap on my shoulder and so it began. Was asked to the side while a fellow shooter who probably was some sort of LEO inspected them.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I woulda made a huge deal about that.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I had the swat team called on me once for "automatic fire" at my personal range. After they stopped pointing guns at me and let me put my hands down they asked about the rifles I had. I told them they were legal as were the mags and they didn't bother to function or capicity test anything....

 

Everything was of course semi-auto and legal.... but they left not really knowing that for sure.

[Polak 3]

Safest way to interpret "permanent" is to cut down the mag so it can only hold 15 without a block.

[Dan 177]

The bottom line is that NJ can drag any NJ gun owner through the mud if they really wanted to. Even if everything is "100%" legal to the letter of the law, they can still drag you into court on all sorts of charges and you have to prove you are legal within the exemptions. Remember guilty until proven innocent, it is not a joke, this is how our laws are written.

 

That being said, the same applies to magazines. The statutes say one thing, then there are the NJAC guidelines saying that temp blocked mags are not OK, and they will try to prosecute you as if they are "large cap".

 

Now it comes down to the judge and jury. Can the prosecutor successfully argue and demonstrate that your blocked mag is indeed still a "large cap" mag as defined in the statutes because it can easily be reversed back to holding more then 15 rounds? That is the question that you have to ask yourself. Is your modification "permanent" enough that when the prosecutor demonstrates reversing it back, it is too easy to do, even to the point of being deliberately easy. They will then just have to convince the jury that you are a psycho gun nut/future killer who is just trying to "skirt the law".

 

If they have to show the usage of power tools, grinding, cutting, re-building, etc to the point of if being rather ridiculous, maybe the jury will not convict because it was obvious that the modifications were rather permanent and the prosecutor is overstepping to the point of fabrication of a new mag. Then you can attack back showing how you are just a hobby gun target shooter, who is doing everything they can to abide by NJ laws put there to keep everyone safe and sound.... All hail NJ and all that stuff.

 

The same can be said of pinned stocks, pinned muzzle brakes, etc. I remember a NY State vid a prosecutor put together showing a gun shop's muzzle brake pin being un-done. It can be done and they showed them drilling the pin out and un-threading the brake. Now it is an evil feature threaded barrel. Shops offer this service, and it is very possible with the right tools to un-do a blind pin without damaging the threads. Just an example.

 

The bottom line is if NJ has a bug up its butt to have you in a bind, they can and will have at it. You want to make it as difficult as possible for them to be able to pick you apart in a NJ puppet court.