Jon 264 Posted April 15, 2013 Instead of the 4 threads currently going on this topic, please keep the discussion going in this thread only. Thank you. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/53367-non-resident-va-no-longer-recognized-in-pa/page__hl__resident__fromsearch__1 http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/53366-non-resident-arizona-no-longer-recognized-in-pa/page__hl__resident__fromsearch__1 http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/47896-pennsylvania-no-longer-recognizes-florida-non-res/page__hl__resident http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/51483-az-ccw-in-pa/page__hl__resident__fromsearch__1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted April 15, 2013 The news is.... Bad. This witch needs to be burned at the stake. I hope you guys are right and she can't touch Utah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CageFighter 236 Posted April 15, 2013 anyone know turnaround time for Utah? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BarkNBite 15 Posted April 15, 2013 Figures.....about a two weeks ago I sent in my Va. material.....Oh well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikelets456 78 Posted April 15, 2013 This is one reason we need to be in the public's eye and let people know about this witch and the damage she's doing. Bloomberg bought her way into her position...I can't stand either of them. BTW, how come these Anti-American liberals can push stuff through in a matter of weeks that destroy our rights yet politicians that protect the oath they took takes a lifetime? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 16, 2013 The news is.... Bad. This witch needs to be burned at the stake. I hope you guys are right and she can't touch Utah. Based on my reading of the statute, I think that she can "touch" Utah and any other state currently identified on the Attorney General website as having "statutory reciprocity." The statute doesn't specifically identify states. It gives the Attorney General the ability to determine that the firearm laws of a given state are "similar" (or not similar) to those in PA. See § 6106(b)(15), below. I think that the statutory reciprocity states will be pushed to reciprocity agreements. §6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.(a) Offense defined.-- (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree. (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree. (b)Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to: ... (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided: (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109. (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cigarsnscotch 0 Posted April 16, 2013 She would have a long road ahead of her if she tried to remove a statutory agreement In my opinion. But who knows, I'm not surprised by much any more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
springfieldxds 0 Posted April 16, 2013 They can refuse to sign a written agreement and if they do they will stay in a statutory agreement Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 16, 2013 She would have a long road ahead of her if she tried to remove a statutory agreement In my opinion. But who knows, I'm not surprised by much any more. They can refuse to sign a written agreement and if they do they will stay in a statutory agreement "Utah" does not appear in the statute. I have been unable to find any "statutory agreement" as you are calling it. Based on the statute, Utah and the few other states are entitled to statutory reciprocity, because two conditions have been met. First, the states provide reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed under PA's statute. Second, the Attorney General determined that the firearms laws of the states are similar to the firearm laws of PA. It doesn't seem that hard for the Attorney General to simply determine otherwise. Can you show me an example of any statutory agreements with any of the 6106(b)(15) states? (Colorado, Iowa, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Utah and/or Wisconsin) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted April 16, 2013 anyone know turnaround time for Utah? It is running about 60 days... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted April 16, 2013 "Utah" does not appear in the statute. I have been unable to find any "statutory agreement" as you are calling it. Based on the statute, Utah and the few other states are entitled to statutory reciprocity, because two conditions have been met. First, the states provide reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed under PA's statute. Second, the Attorney General determined that the firearms laws of the states are similar to the firearm laws of PA. It doesn't seem that hard for the Attorney General to simply determine otherwise. Can you show me an example of any statutory agreements with any of the 6106(b)(15) states? (Colorado, Iowa, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Utah and/or Wisconsin) She would have to have the statute changed to: (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued RESIDENT license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided: (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109. (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth. (16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted April 16, 2013 She would have to have the statute changed Thankfully she is not the legislature and the Governor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 16, 2013 "Utah" does not appear in the statute. I have been unable to find any "statutory agreement" as you are calling it. Based on the statute, Utah and the few other states are entitled to statutory reciprocity, because two conditions have been met. First, the states provide reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed under PA's statute. Second, the Attorney General determined that the firearms laws of the states are similar to the firearm laws of PA. It doesn't seem that hard for the Attorney General to simply determine otherwise. Can you show me an example of any statutory agreements with any of the 6106(b)(15) states? (Colorado, Iowa, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Utah and/or Wisconsin) She would have to have the statute changed to: (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued RESIDENT license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided: (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109. (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth. (16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3). I disagree. The statute doesn't need to be changed at all for her to revoke statutory reciprocity. Look at (ii). She simply needs to determine that Utah's laws are not similar to Pennsylvania's. For example, Utah will issue a permit to someone without them having first obtained a permit from the state of their residency. Pennsylvania will not. The result is that PA residents can carry concealed with a UT permit in Philly, which is exactly what the AG and mayor are trying to prevent. Another example is that UT law allows permit holders to carry on the property of public schools. PA generally doesn't, but does have an exception for "lawful" purposes. However, earlier this year, a man (Dr. Charles V. King, II DC) who was carrying concealed (with a valid PA permit) was arrested at a school in Confluence, PA. The DA's office, while acknowledging that the law was vague, took "the position that you do not, unless you are law enforcement, have the right to go on school property with any weapon." Again, this could give the AG reason to deem the states' laws dissimilar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rifleman1 32 Posted April 16, 2013 I disagree. The statute doesn't need to be changed at all for her to revoke statutory reciprocity. Look at (ii). She simply needs to determine that Utah's laws are not similar to Pennsylvania's. For example, Utah will issue a permit to someone without them having first obtained a permit from the state of their residency. Pennsylvania will not. The result is that PA residents can carry concealed with a UT permit in Philly, which is exactly what the AG and mayor are trying to prevent. Another example is that UT law allows permit holders to carry on the property of public schools. PA generally doesn't, but does have an exception for "lawful" purposes. However, earlier this year, a man who was carrying concealed (with a valid PA permit) was arrested at a school in Confluence, PA. The DA's office, while acknowledging that the law was vague, took "the position that you do not, unless you are law enforcement, have the right to go on school property with any weapon." Again, this could give the AG reason to deem the states' laws dissimilar. I am thinking that a determination had already been made by a previous Attorney General that it may hard to reverse that position unless some change in the laws of one or the other had actually been made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 16, 2013 I am thinking that a determination had already been made by a previous Attorney General that it may hard to reverse that position unless some change in the laws of one or the other had actually been made.Based on how easily she negotiated new reciprocity agreements, I don't think anything is stopping her from issuing an official opinion letter making a determination that is different than a previous one. However, after looking at Utah's statutes, I think it's important to note that Utah requires residents of states that recognize the validity of the Utah permit or have reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law (like PA) to hold a current permit from their state. Thus, if PA refuses to issue one to a PA resident, Utah will also. That seems to be what PA was mainly concerned with. (4) (a) In addition to meeting the other qualifications for the issuance of a concealed firearm permit under this section, a nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law shall: (i) hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the nonresident applicant's state of residency; and (ii) submit a photocopy or electronic copy of the nonresident applicant's current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit referred to in Subsection (4)(a)(i). With that said, you still have to contend with Philly's ordinance. Did anyone ever challenge that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
springfieldxds 0 Posted April 16, 2013 I disagree. The statute doesn't need to be changed at all for her to revoke statutory reciprocity. Look at (ii). She simply needs to determine that Utah's laws are not similar to Pennsylvania's. For example, Utah will issue a permit to someone without them having first obtained a permit from the state of their residency. Pennsylvania will not. The result is that PA residents can carry concealed with a UT permit in Philly, which is exactly what the AG and mayor are trying to prevent. Another example is that UT law allows permit holders to carry on the property of public schools. PA generally doesn't, but does have an exception for "lawful" purposes. However, earlier this year, a man (Dr. Charles V. King, II DC) who was carrying concealed (with a valid PA permit) was arrested at a school in Confluence, PA. The DA's office, while acknowledging that the law was vague, took "the position that you do not, unless you are law enforcement, have the right to go on school property with any weapon." Again, this could give the AG reason to deem the states' laws dissimilar. Wrong, since PA and UT have reciprocity a resident of PA must have a license from PA before getting a license from UT under UT law Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 17, 2013 Wrong, since PA and UT have reciprocity a resident of PA must have a license from PA before getting a license from UT under UT law In the post right above yours, I acknowledged that UT requires a PA resident (and residents of certain other states) to have a permit from their home state before it will issue a non-resident permit to that person. That's a relatively new (~2011) requirement, though, and it still doesn't apply to residents of states like NJ. Accordingly, the average NJ resident can get a UT permit (and carry in PA), even though PA won't issue a permit to that same NJ resident. That's completely inconsistent with the AG's push to modify all existing reciprocity agreements to prevent everyone from carrying in PA with only a non-resident permit from a reciprocal state. Notwithstanding Utah's statute, above, the fact remains that there are enough differences between the states' laws that the AG could foreseeably nullify statutory reciprocity with Utah if she wanted to. As far as I can tell, there is no agreement or statute preventing her from doing that. To the contrary, the statute explicitly authorizes her to do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted April 17, 2013 It's inconsistent with her campaign ads which say that people disqualified from obtaining a PA LTCF get one out of state and carry in PA. So even though we are affected, we aren't who they are going after. Yes there's a small chance she could target Utah but it seems unlikely given that the Utah law accomplishes the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CageFighter 236 Posted April 17, 2013 anyone know the turnaround time on UT permit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk 4 Posted April 17, 2013 It's inconsistent with her campaign ads which say that people disqualified from obtaining a PA LTCF get one out of state and carry in PA. So even though we are affected, we aren't who they are going after. Yes there's a small chance she could target Utah but it seems unlikely given that the Utah law accomplishes the same.Yeah, it seems like the core targets were the PA residents who were denied a permit or had it revoked. After seeing the updated Utah statute and the fact that PA allows Illinois residents to obtain a non-resident PA permit with a showing of their FOID (suggesting that they don't mind non-residents carrying without their home-state's resident permit), I think Utah will stay safe for the time being. Do the other statutory reciprocity states have the same home-state permit prerequisite as UT? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plode 0 Posted April 17, 2013 anyone know the turnaround time on UT permit? I believe it's right around 60 days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted April 17, 2013 Do the other statutory reciprocity states have the same home-state permit prerequisite as UT? That list is pretty short. Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Wisconsin and Montana do not issue to nonresidents. Iowa issues to nonresidents based on need (like NJ). They are not shall issue to nonresidents. Indiana issues only to nonresidents who work or have a business in Indiana. North Dakota will issue to residents and nonresidents but you must go there for the training and go there to renew. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
10X 3,278 Posted April 17, 2013 That list is pretty short. Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Wisconsin and Montana do not issue to nonresidents. Idaho (my native state) will issue to non-residents. A whopping $20 for 5 years. I'm not sure if you can apply by mail, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plode 0 Posted April 17, 2013 Idaho (my native state) will issue to non-residents. A whopping $20 for 5 years. I'm not sure if you can apply by mail, though. You can apply by mail, but you have to pick it up in person Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted June 7, 2013 Reminder: Florida non res becomes invalid in PA tomorrow except for vehicle carry. Hopefully Utah will hurry up and issue my permit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted June 7, 2013 Vehicle carry thanks to Me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted June 7, 2013 Vehicle carry thanks to Me. Really? I'd like to hear that story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted June 7, 2013 Really? I'd like to hear that story. It's a wonderful tale with unicorns and sprinkles. When people started worrying about this stuff, I explained over and over again that vehicle carry was OK, and cited the law. So many times, that I started calling out numbers rather than quoting the law. So many times, because nobody here ever listens. And, this was years after I explained it the first time on this board. So, because of me. If you can find a single post that intentionally says you can vehicle carry in PA with a license from any state, and that post is dated before I explained it to you a million times, then I will publicly concede that you do not have to STFU. Nobody here had any idea after I explained it years ago. Nobody here had any idea after I explained it half a dozen times this year. A dozen times later, people are starting to pick it up. Go search my posts if you want wisdom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dextersmom 0 Posted June 8, 2013 It is running about 60 days... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dextersmom 0 Posted June 8, 2013 Took me 70 days from Utah receiving my paperwork, cashing my check, and mailing the Permit to carry!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites