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News regarding PA CCW reciprocity

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The OAL does not write administrative regulations, it is an adjudicative body within the executive branch composed of administrative law judges who decide cases and those determinations are accepted or rejected by an agency head.

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So I guess if nobody can claim ownership of the justifiable need standard, why can't we just get rid of it? 

It's not that no one's claiming ownership. It's that they're refusing to divulge what the standards are. I guess they don't want it publicly aired that "justifiable need" means being either a big campaign donor, a politician or family member thereof, or a celebrity.

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Got it. So who defined justifiable need? 

 

You can get access to all historical administrative code changes here:  http://www.njstatelib.org/research_library/legal_resources/nj_legal_resources/nj_register/

 

If I'm reading this correctly, the definition of justifiable need was added to the administrative code in 1991.  If you scroll down to Volume 23 (1991) number 15, it will open as a PDF.  link here:  http://www.njstatelib.org/law_files/imported/Research_Guides/Law/njregister/volume23number15%20page2205-2446.pdf

 

On page 2258 of this document, second column, paragraph 2, under (d)1. you'll find the new proposed language in bold.  language to be removed is in brackets [remove this] and language to be added is bold: new language.  Notice that no language is being removed from this section and that the definition of justifiable need is being added.  This makes me think that no definition existed before 1991.

 

Okay, now scroll way up to the beginning of this proposed change found on page 2250, second column bottom of the page.  It says that the proposed re-adoption of 13:54 with amendments was "Authorized By:Colonel Justin J. Ointino, Superintendent, Division of State Police.   The date is August 5, 1991.

 

I'm no lawyer but it looks to me like: (1) the definition of justifiable need did not exist prior to 1991.  (2) The superintendent of state police proposed the change to the administrative code that added the definition.    

 

Oh, and the definition in the code says: " the urgent necessity for self-protection, as evidenced by specific threats or previous attacks which demonstrate a special danger to the applicant's life that cannot be avoided by means other than by issuance of a permit to carry a handgun. Where possible the applicant shall corroborate the existence of any specific threats or previous attacks by reference to reports of such incidents to the appropriate law enforcement agencies;"

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They did. Siccardi.

 

I just read that whole thing. Good God, half of it is police testimony saying that carrying guns doesn't prevent crime, and that we are too stupid and clumsy to handle guns because we might injure ourselves. 

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Thanks that makes sense. Thanks for the correction. 

 

So all this time, the NJSP has been the one responsible for no CCW in NJ?

 

 

They did. Siccardi.

 

I just read that whole thing. Good God, half of it is police testimony saying that carrying guns doesn't prevent crime, and that we are too stupid and clumsy to handle guns because we might injure ourselves. 

 

I haven't read it, but it wouldn't surprise me. That is the mentality of much of this "Nanny" state.  Think about if. If you were law enforcement, would you want everyone else having the same armament as you?  Of course, you'd want your armament to be superior to everyone else's.  After all, the laws heading to CC's desk re: mag limits and assault weapons bans were written/sponsored by a LEO!  And, of course, they exempt *other* LEOs.

 

But this mindset isn't restricted to just "law enforcement." Why is NJ one of only two states that don't allow "self-service" gasoline? Because the Nanny state feels we can't fill our own tanks??? :rolleyes: I was an EMT and a PIT (Paramedic in Training).  All throughout my training and, in re: my talks with the paramedics that were training me, it was clear that theirs/my actions were strictly controlled by doctors. In other states, paramedics have a lot more discretion than they do in NJ and don't need that degree of "medical control."  Why, for example, is there no such thing as "Physician's Assistants" in NJ (or there weren't any when I was training)? Because the doctors don't want to give up control! 

 

Same with those "anti" LE depts...  (mostly inner-city - like Jersey City, etc.) or nearby.

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There are "certified medical assistants" (CMA) in NJ. Most doctors offices have a few. They don't get paid as much as Registered Nurses. But they can give injections, draw blood, take vitals, administer allergy skin tests,do EKG's, yadda, Yadda, yadda. Doctors pay them half what a nurse makes, that way they can take 4 or 5 vacations a year instead of only 2.

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There are "certified medical assistants" (CMA) in NJ. Most doctors offices have a few. They don't get paid as much as Registered Nurses. But they can give injections, draw blood, take vitals, administer allergy skin tests,do EKG's, yadda, Yadda, yadda. Doctors pay them half what a nurse makes, that way they can take 4 or 5 vacations a year instead of only 2.

 

I believe physician's assistants can do more than RNs.  They can "take full histories," do exams, etc. They probably can't perscribe meds (would need a DEA #), but I'm sure could set up a treatment plan and get physician approval. All the mechanical things like phlebotomy, EKGs, etc. are things a technician can do.

 

Physician's Asst.'s do things a NJ doctor would not allow... since it takes money out of their pockets and control out of their hands...  :rolleyes:

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But this mindset isn't restricted to just "law enforcement." Why is NJ one of only two states that don't allow "self-service" gasoline? 

 

Because like everything else, it protects people's jobs. NJ is all about Government force to keep people in certain positions employed. 

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Because like everything else, it protects people's jobs. NJ is all about Government force to keep people in certain positions employed. 

 

In the case of fuel stations, then, I'd say NJ failed big time, since most stations (which usually had 2-3 attendants on duty at a time, 2 of which often served your car directly) have reduced it to just one for the whole site, (who minds the store, primarily - same as most self-service stations anyway)... thus having it take forever to get service. :mad:

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In the case of fuel stations, then, I'd say NJ failed big time, since most stations (which usually had 2-3 attendants on duty at a time, 2 of which often served your car directly) have reduced it to just one for the whole site, (who minds the store, primarily - same as most self-service stations anyway)... thus having it take forever to get service. :mad:

 

I fill up at the small independents where Mr Patel and his son man the pumps. 

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So if Pennsylvania's AG can unilaterally decide that certain out of state CCW permits are no longer valid, can our AG wake up one morning a proclaim that self defense constitutes "justifiable need"?  (I know that would never happen, but it's an entertaining fantasy.)

 

And as for not having to pump our own gasoline, please keep quiet about that.  It's one of the few good things about living in NJ!

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I fill up at the small independents where Mr Patel and his son man the pumps.

 

With a little care and "getting to know people," you can find places where you're "trusted."  The one's that don't are usually those that are afraid you are u/c LEO, or those who actually support the law (for whatever reason).  :rolleyes:

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And as for not having to pump our own gasoline, please keep quiet about that.  It's one of the few good things about living in NJ!

 

This is the real reason why I believe it's still this way... the very huge lobby of those that don't want to get out of their cars and pump their own gas.  I guess we have different objectives. I would prefer to pump my own. I have already had to replace one gas cap ($20.00) due to "attendant abuse." Remember, a bad gas cap can cause an error code in the OBD computer (and, thus, the dreaded "Check Engine" light). Thankfully, I have an OBD II reader and can clear the code(s), but still...

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With a little care and "getting to know people," you can find places where you're "trusted."  The one's that don't are usually those that are afraid you are u/c LEO, or those who actually support the law (for whatever reason).  :rolleyes:

 

Oh I'm "trusted" at a few of these places, mostly with cans. 

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I just grab the pump out of the guys hand and pump it myself if I feel like it. I don't usually get any opposition. Most gas attendants aren't used to that and don't know what to do when it happens. I only do so when I'm on the bike, or filling a gas can. My gas cap is on a tether attached to my trucks fuel tank door. I rented a new Explorer in Florida, it doesn't have a gas cap! Freaked me out when I went to fill the tank.

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I've had one attendant try to pump the gas into my bike...when I took the nozzle from him...he actually grabbed it away from me and tried shoving it into my tank, I thought he was gonna have a fit.  Not that I could understand what he was saying, but he got a little upset when I put my cap on and rode away to a station where the attendants and I speak the same language fluently.

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I highly doubt that line of action will help you since MANY of the places you listed bar carry completely.. those business are owned.. operated.. and staffed by many people that live (or lived) in major cities... or more importantly are from non gun states like NJ.. when I am traveling east I pretty much always carry concealed so I am not hassled by these places... many of them go as far as to put up "no firearm" signs... so calling them and telling them "I will not be shopping there because I can no longer bring my gun" will likely net the response of "we are already a gun free establishment" or worse yet you will simply get this response "good".. extreme eastern PA might as well be NJ in many places as far as 2A interests go.. 

^Do not listen to this.

 

Those are strong words, and I reserve them for 100% nonsense.

 

That is 100% nonsense.

 

I have open carried in Eastern PA, right on the damn border of NJ, for 6 years. The parking lots are filled with people that have NJ and NY license plates.

 

Come show me some business that have a "no firearm" sign.

 

I have not been hassled.

 

I have to be firm about this because there is extremely misleading and inaccurate information that is a little alarmist. I think I have an obligation to point this out to my fellow gun carriers.

 

I would also like a list of places you have called and received that response so we can flush this out and get to the bottom of it.

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I think the pa AG is now negotiating with Utah to allow Utah resident permits and visa versa. At least that's the information I read on their website. It's vague where it talked about why pa dropped Utah, it only says "due to a change in their laws pa will no longer honor their permit". Didn't say what the change is. Im not aware of Utah changing anything recently either.

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