S2723 Revises Firearm Purchaser ID and handgun purchase permits (Sweeney, Norcross, Weinberg)

[Barms 98]

Since we fill out the SAME application for a FPID and P2P and each would be good until the DL expires why even have a "permit " for a handgun? I just don't get it. Redundant. Just an authorization to purchase firearms embedded in your license would accomplish the same thing.

The paperwork is not the same. Pistol paperwork is much more intrusive than just FID application. Think of it this way, when a hunter wanted an FID to buy a shotgun his employer was not notified.

 

I believe the antis are still making the exceptions for handguns because they are considered evil And hunters are not evil (in their eyes)

 

Same with the rational for needing a handgun "permit" to buy handgun ammo. Because why else would a person without a legal handgun want to buy handgun ammo? They think only evil or prohibited people would.

[222 3]

I took that to mean out of state dealers would have to log ammunition they ship to NJ. Unconstitutional as all hell, but when has that made a difference?

If it's just a matter of them logging onto a web site and entering the data, that would be the least of our problems. A bigger problem would be if they had to scan our FID, which of course they can't, unless you mail it to them AND they choose to invest in the scanner for the 5 people in NJ who would actually go through with it.

 

Writing laws mandating out-of-state dealers to log such a transaction would be unconstitutional.  Commerce Clause of the Constitution gives Congress power to regulate Interstate Commerce.  "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports."

 

I see sections 15 and 16 requires Superintendent to build the program.  I don't see anything in there that requires anyone to use it, especially anyone from out-of-state.  Doing so will get the law thrown out pretty quick.

 

But I agree: the problem sections of 15 and 16 is not the expensive useless website, is producing an embedded firearm id that noone can affirm.

[rufus70 0]

this whole FID system is unconstitutional, i mean really, i don't need a permit to go to my local synagogue or to exocise my 1st amendment so why do i need "permission" to purchase a firearm. the FID system needs to be repealed as it infringes on our 2nd amendment right. what are everyone's feelings on this issue ?

[Carcano 14]

Why should the NJ Gestapo have a right to know how much ammo I have?

 

Do like me, BUY IT WHOLESALE...have it shipped LTL freight to your door and get some decent reloading equipment. You will be set for many years to come. I have pallets in my garage and this year alone added another $10K to my stock, I enjoy targeting shooting and can't imagine not being able to shoot some of the older rifles in odd calibers I have or having to submit myself to Nazi control from the elite in Trenton.

 

It's worth buying up whatever you can afford and I know of many who have also been stacking it to the moon since this crap started.

[Glockguy1120 0]

Just catching up. So they want you to have a p2p to buy hg ammo? No more just having a license or fid card?

[ogfarmer 138]

yep

[Glockguy1120 0]

Thank god for reloading and close proximity to pa

[Glockguy1120 0]

I also love christy always talking about making our communities safer for the kids. The kids the kids the kids. Isn't he the same governor that constantly says he hates early childhood education for children and has been trying to do away with the nj early childhood Ed system?

[n4p226r 105]

am i reading the newest version correctly?  you are allowed internet sales, once they set up a way for the internet seller to report it to the state police, but they have to verify your FPID prior.  that same FPID that is attached to your drivers license that nobody can verify except for the police and gun dealers in state that use the system.  does that sound about right?

[wooly bugger 1]

am i reading the newest version correctly?  you are allowed internet sales, once they set up a way for the internet seller to report it to the state police, but they have to verify your FPID prior.  that same FPID that is attached to your drivers license that nobody can verify except for the police and gun dealers in state that use the system.  does that sound about right?

If you're sane enough to request a military discharge on account of insanity, then you're not sufficiently insane to merit such a discharge.

[Steve_G 51]

am i reading the newest version correctly?  you are allowed internet sales, once they set up a way for the internet seller to report it to the state police, but they have to verify your FPID prior.  that same FPID that is attached to your drivers license that nobody can verify except for the police and gun dealers in state that use the system.  does that sound about right?

This is going to be interesting. Out of state companies are not bound by nj law. They are not required to report anything to the state police. I'm guessing some will just not sell to nj anymore and others will just laugh at the new laws and continue doing what they are doing now.

[222 3]

Fiscal Estimate for S2723 was released.

 

Few details. Cost for 1 section alone runs into millions. Many other sections are simply 'significant costs'.

 

In other words, 10s of millions in upfront costs and 10s of millions in recurring costs.

[voyager9 3,434]

Fiscal Estimate for S2723 was released.

 

Few details. Cost for 1 section alone runs into millions. Many other sections are simply 'significant costs'.

 

In other words, 10s of millions in upfront costs and 10s of millions in recurring costs.

 

Even if I agreed with what the Bill is trying to do that right there is enough for me to oppose it.  The state government has enough financial problems that it should not undertake anything new at such a significant upfront and recurrent cost. 

[falcone 89]

The massive upfront and recurring cost gives Christie a good reason to veto this garbage when it hits his desk.

[Glockguy1120 0]

I have a question. New laws go into effect. I have enough guns and I don't feel like getting my endorsement. Can I still use my old fid card to transport to and from the range? I know there's no law saying I have to carry my card but we all know how cops are. And the new law requiring "training". Does that mean we all have to take a new training class or can those of us who hunt use our hunter Ed cards as proof like with the Florida permit? I'm really holding on to high hopes this bs doesn't pass but with the way these scumbag "employees" of ours have been ignoring and disrespecting us I know I'm fooling myself.

[wooly bugger 1]

Fiscal Estimate for S2723 was released.

 

Few details. Cost for 1 section alone runs into millions. Many other sections are simply 'significant costs'.

 

In other words, 10s of millions in upfront costs and 10s of millions in recurring costs.

Where did you find this? This is extremely important and needs to get to every one of our senators and to the media.

[ogfarmer 138]

its on the nj leg site under the bill but it gives no exact numbers just states what DL cost when updated

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2012/Bills/S3000/2723_E1.HTM

[ogfarmer 138]

It says theres insufficent info available to determine costs, it just says that previous dl upgrades cost ....

 

 

The OLS notes that, based on budget and other information, it may have cost the MVC about $8 million in upfront costs over a three year period to establish a digital driver’s license in 2004, which suggests that the cost of establishing a single-purpose digitalized card would be significant.

 

 

[NYMetsFan86 9]

Thats messed up that it can even go to his desk without have detailed cost analysis. thats Ass frontwards...or somthin like that

 

It says theres insufficent info available to determine costs, it just says that

[wooly bugger 1]

Thats messed up that it can even go to his desk without have detailed cost analysis. thats Ass frontwards...or somthin like that

What's the point of a budget committee if it can't provide...budgets .

[voyager9 3,434]

From the header:

 

· The Office of Legislative Services (OLS) concludes that this bill will result in an indeterminate annual increase in State expenditures in order to digitalize firearms purchase identifiers, through either driver’s licenses and identification cards issued by the Motor Vehicle Commission (MVC) or identification cards issued by the Superintendent of the State Police.
· The OLS further concludes that this bill will result in an indeterminate annual increase in State expenditures in order for the Superintendent of State Police to develop and maintain an information management system to implement the requirement for embedded firearms purchase identifiers, and to provide systems to retail firearms dealers for instant identification of eligible firearms purchasers and to record dealers’ Internet sales and transfers of ammunition on a real-time basis.
· The OLS estimates an indeterminate but potentially significant additional cost to prepare and disseminate information on the new requirements for firearms purchasers and dealers that result from enactment of this legislation.
· The OLS estimates an indeterminate but potentially significant additional cost to provide signage for public buildings promoting safe storage of firearms under the “KeepSafe” program.
· The OLS estimates an indeterminate increase in State and local revenue from firearms purchaser identification card application fees, due to requirements for more frequent renewal of identification cards than under current law.

So they state the cost would be "potentially significant" to prepare and disseminate information and signage.. but don't use that term.. at all.. to describe the cost of digitizing FPID or the required backend systems even when its used later to describe the financial impact?

 

The OLS notes that, based on budget and other information, it may have cost the MVC about $8 million in upfront costs over a three year period to establish a digital driver’s license in 2004, which suggests that the cost of establishing a single-purpose digitalized card would be significant.

 

[voyager9 3,434]

What's the point of a budget committee if it can't provide...budgets .

 

Pension..

[wooly bugger 1]

its on the nj leg site under the bill but it gives no exact numbers just states what DL cost when updated

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2012/Bills/S3000/2723_E1.HTM

I just read the whole thing.

In my job, if today I were asked for a budget estimate and presented something like that, I would be fired tomorrow.

[voyager9 3,434]

I just read the whole thing.

In my job, if today I were asked for a budget estimate and presented something like that, I would be fired tomorrow.

It's not even a SWAG.. It's the equivalent of "Uhhhhhhhh, I dunno, a lot?"

 

Now.. in their defense.. what they were asked to Estimate is very difficult and not something that can be done in a week or two. I blame it on a bad and overreaching bill.

[Michael2013 56]

this whole FID system is unconstitutional, i mean really, i don't need a permit to go to my local synagogue or to exocise my 1st amendment so why do i need "permission" to purchase a firearm. the FID system needs to be repealed as it infringes on our 2nd amendment right. what are everyone's feelings on this issue ?

 

In fact, I wrote something like this to "my" state Senator.  My opinion is this:  gun ownership is a constitutional right, that means that if you're a citizen and can vote - you can own a firearm.  If you are mentally ill or have criminal record, you loose your right to vote together with 2A right.

Yeah, sure ...

[matty 810]

Rhode Island just put off more gun control for another day, the Anti momentum is spent, for now. With the lawsuits in NY,CT and CO, and the unknown costs, other than 'a lot', there's zero upside for Christie signing this or allowing it to become law, and big downside to his future plans if he does. So mayyyyybeeeee, juuuussstttttt mayyyybeee, we'll get by without any new laws, for now.

You can bet your Waffenwerks AK-74 that once Christie is out of here in 2016/17, that the Democrats will be back for the guns with a vengeance. Count on it.

[rlsbee 1]

I can't help thinking about all those stories that you hear about someone getting their credit card info getting stolen. I'm not familiar with all the techniques they use, but I thought I read that they can be standing near you and electronically 'steal' the info. Not sure if that's true or not. I do know that there are card readers that can be 'palmed' and they will read magnetic strips by adeptly swiping the card.  Now, I know I'm asked for my picture id (my DL) a lot more than I get asked to see my FID. When I show my FID, I'm pretty confident that the person who asks for it, isn't going to steal any info for any illegal purpose. However, when I show my DL, I may not know the person that I hand it to. Suppose they steal the info on the strip and sell it to somebody engaged in cyber crime? Could be a pretty lucrative business. Maybe this is 'reaching' a bit but cyber crime is big business. I like needing my current DL and FID. Just doesn't seem like there is as much chance of criminal theft.

[rlsbee 1]

I can't help thinking about all those stories that you hear about someone getting their credit card info getting stolen. I'm not familiar with all the techniques they use, but I thought I read that they can be standing near you and electronically 'steal' the info. Not sure if that's true or not. I do know that there are card readers that can be 'palmed' and they will read magnetic strips by adeptly swiping the card.  Now, I know I'm asked for my picture id (my DL) a lot more than I get asked to see my FID. When I show my FID, I'm pretty confident that the person who asks for it, isn't going to steal any info for any illegal purpose. However, when I show my DL, I may not know the person that I hand it to. Suppose they steal the info on the strip and sell it to somebody engaged in cyber crime? Could be a pretty lucrative business. Maybe this is 'reaching' a bit but cyber crime is big business. I like needing my current DL and FID. Just doesn't seem like there is as much chance of criminal theft.

I sent these concerns to all legislators in the Senate and Assembly. As of this morning, I had only one real response and that was from Assemblyman Cryan. He said

"Good point 

If it comes back to us in the assembly I'll raise it"

 

Didn't expect that one.

 

Got another response today from Assemblyman Giblin:

 

Thank you for your most informative correspondence regarding Senate Bill S2723 which revises statutes concerning firearms purchaser identification cards and handgun purchase permits and makes handgun purchase permits valid for four years.  It has provided me with some interesting insight.  This bill passed in the Senate on May 30. I have not had the opportunity to thoroughly review all the provisions of this legislation; however, I will certainly give serious consideration to your ideas and concerns when it is presented to the Assembly for a final vote. 

 

I appreciate your having shared your concerns with me. Your views will receive every consideration.  I hope that you will continue to keep me apprised of any suggestions or comments you may have on the critical issues facing our State.

 

Assemblyman Thomas P. Giblin

34th District

1333 Broad Street

Clifton, NJ 07013

973.779.3125

Fax: 973.779.3156

[email protected]

 

I don't expect anything will change but ya gotta keep tryin'.

[222 3]

Passed 23 to 17. Basically party lines.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

Did you REALLY expect different? :-(