S2723 Revises Firearm Purchaser ID and handgun purchase permits (Sweeney, Norcross, Weinberg)

[222 3]

S2723 is suppose to be picked up by Budget Committee on Thursday 5/9.

 

But as-of midnight, it is still not yet referred to Budget Committee.

It also has not had its fiscal estimate.  That's what I am interested in seeing.

 - DMV has to build a whole new system within the next 6 years.

 - Superintendent has to test that system.

 - Municipalities currently handle handgun permit and FID applications with 1-2 detectives, and NJSP gets involved too.  After bill, they'll need to support current volume + 250,000 renewals per year.

 

Fiscal estimate should run into millions.

[voyager9 3,434]

S2723 is suppose to be picked up by Budget Committee on Thursday 5/9.

 

But as-of midnight, it is still not yet referred to Budget Committee.

It also has not had its fiscal estimate.  That's what I am interested in seeing.

 - DMV has to build a whole new system within the next 6 years.

 - Superintendent has to test that system.

 - Municipalities currently handle handgun permit and FID applications with 1-2 detectives, and NJSP gets involved too.  After bill, they'll need to support current volume + 250,000 renewals per year.

 

Fiscal estimate should run into millions.

I think that's putting it mildly.  I see double-digit millions NRE and then millions/year for maintenance and manpower.

Don't forget that FFL's would also need to purchase equipment to read new eFID so roll that cost into their NICS fees..

[222 3]

From the budget meeting today, there is a new substitute bill as of today, which the budge committee reported to general Senate.

 

Some key differences mentioned by audio:

- New Firearm ID will have digital photo.

- Attorney General and Superintendent will decide whether the new Firearm ID will be on Driver's license or be separate card.

- Requires Superintendent to setup system for dealers to record Internet sales of ammo.

- Requires person to apply for duplicate ID if they move.

- Mandate 7 day handgun waiting period applies to new ID system

- Require State Police to access Civil Commitment system during background check.

- Requires minimum 3.5 years prison term for unlawful possession of machine gun? Assault gun, certain handguns, rifles and shotguns.

- Requires Firearm Id and handgun permit, or carry permit, or new card to buy handgun ammo.

 

I guess we will see if we ever see the actual bill text.

- If you need a handgun permit to buy handgun ammo, then you are just going to have to drive out of state to buy handgun ammo. Or you will have to get the new ID as soon as it is available, so the system will get 1 million requests in the first few months, not phased in over 4 years.

- If they setup a new system for dealers to record Internet Ammo sales, does that mean only dealers in NJ need to comply? Or does it mean they have effectively prevented all of us from buying ammo online, because out of state dealers won't bother complying with NJ rules.

 

Also at the end Chairman Sarlo said none of these bills will have huge fiscal impact. Haha.

[Howard 538]

What is a handgun permit?  Is that a P2P?  If so, are you saying you need to have a P2P to buy ammo?  Or is this handgun permit some type of new permit.  I'm confused.

[SmartAss 11]

At the very end of the audio (01:52:54) you can hear some woman saying "They just want to have their little guns and do whatever they want with them". Wondering if that one of the senators or just an anti.

[MattH 0]

You already need either an FID, copy of your P2P or a carry permit to purchase handgun ammo. You don't need to have a FID to buy a handgun, just a P2P, so that is why they say you can use a copy of your P2P to buy HG ammo.

[Teky0101 6]

So what happens in the meantime can we still purchase guns once the new system goes into effect or will we be required to have the new cards to purchase firearms?

[222 3]

What is a handgun permit?  Is that a P2P?  If so, are you saying you need to have a P2P to buy ammo?  Or is this handgun permit some type of new permit.  I'm confused.

On the recording, at about 58 minute mark, she says

Requires a person to have a

FID AND P2P

or permit to carry

Or new ID

To purchase handgun ammo.

 

We will know better with bill text release.

[222 3]

You already need either an FID, copy of your P2P or a carry permit to purchase handgun ammo. You don't need to have a FID to buy a handgun, just a P2P, so that is why they say you can use a copy of your P2P to buy HG ammo.

Under current legislation it is 1 of those documents.

Based upon recording that may be changing.

If it wasn't changing I wonder why they pointed it out.

[Howard 538]

You already need either an FID, copy of your P2P or a carry permit to purchase handgun ammo. You don't need to have a FID to buy a handgun, just a P2P, so that is why they say you can use a copy of your P2P to buy HG ammo.

Yes, but my question was that it said FID AND Handgun permit not OR.

[MattH 0]

I haven't seen the text saying "and". The text in the link on the first page says "or".

 

Do you have a link to the text saying "and"?

[Howard 538]

I haven't seen the text saying "and". The text in the link on the first page says "or".

 

Do you have a link to the text saying "and"?

In #63 above it says "- Requires Firearm Id and handgun permit, or carry permit, or new card to buy handgun ammo."

[MattH 0]

In #63 above it says "- Requires Firearm Id and handgun permit, or carry permit, or new card to buy handgun ammo."

Thanks I read that a hundred times and kept missing the word "and". I apologize. That is going to be a major PITA to carry a copy of a P2P around just to buy ammo.

[voyager9 3,434]

 

 

I haven't seen the text saying "and". The text in the link on the first page says "or".

 

Do you have a link to the text saying "and"?

 

 

In #63 above it says "- Requires Firearm Id and handgun permit, or carry permit, or new card to buy handgun ammo."

#63 was transposed by someone listening to the audio. Perhaps they heard wrong, or whoever was speaking was wrong? Proof will be in the text.

 

The paper didn't list this bill as one releases to the full senate. Was it wrong? If its a new bill what happens to it?

 

Cannot believe they think this will have limited financial impact.

[wooly bugger 1]

I'll bet most of them don't even realize there's no such thing as a "handgun permit."
Since Dick's considers .22 potentially "handgun" ammunition, does this mean someone who owns no handguns will have to get a P2P just for the sake of buying .22?

I don't understand the system for dealers to record sales of internet ammo. They don't come through a dealer, so how does this happen? Do we have to ship to a dealer so they can record it before taking possession?

 

As for "fiscal impact," don't they have to do actual estimates, or is it just a matter of the chairman saying "it won't be much" and then passing it along? I'd like to see line items, please.

[MattH 0]

 

 

I'll bet most of them don't even realize there's no such thing as a "handgun permit."

Since Dick's considers .22 potentially "handgun" ammunition, does this mean someone who owns no handguns will have to get a P2P just for the sake of buying .22?

 

 

This is from the text linked on the first page:

 

10.  Section 1 of P.L.2007, c.318 (C.2C:58-3.3) is amended to read as follows:

     1.    a. As used in this act, "handgun ammunition" means ammunition specifically designed to be used only in a handgun.  "Handgun ammunition" shall not include blank ammunition, air gun pellets, flare gun ammunition, nail gun ammunition, paint ball ammunition, or any non-fixed ammunition.

 

According to that, since .22lr isn't specifically designed for a handgun then you wouldn't need a P2P to buy it.

 

 

[wooly bugger 1]

 

 

 

I'll bet most of them don't even realize there's no such thing as a "handgun permit."

Since Dick's considers .22 potentially "handgun" ammunition, does this mean someone who owns no handguns will have to get a P2P just for the sake of buying .22?

 

 

This is from the text linked on the first page:

 

10.  Section 1 of P.L.2007, c.318 (C.2C:58-3.3) is amended to read as follows:

     1.    a. As used in this act, "handgun ammunition" means ammunition specifically designed to be used only in a handgun.  "Handgun ammunition" shall not include blank ammunition, air gun pellets, flare gun ammunition, nail gun ammunition, paint ball ammunition, or any non-fixed ammunition.

 

According to that, since .22lr isn't specifically designed for a handgun then you wouldn't need a P2P to buy it.

 

 

 

Tell that to Dick's. Right now they treat .22 as handgun, and I'll be surprised if they'll suddenly change their minds.

Also, "specifically designed to be used ONLY in a handgun?"

Does this mean .357 magnum is OK? Looks like the ignorance of our lawmakers can help us once in awhile.

[wooly bugger 1]

Here's an email I just sent off to Sen Sarlo,

 

Dear Senator Sarlo,

I understand that a modified version of S2723 was heard at your committee meeting today but no detailed budget was presented.

 

I would imagine this bill, if passed into law, will cost tens of millions of taxpayer dollars but would like to see a quantitative estimate.

 

Could you send me that estimate?

Thank you.

[MattH 0]

.357, .38sp, .45acp and even 9mm are able to be used in both handguns and long guns so I'd say they'd be exempt but I can guarantee you the state will say differently.

[222 3]

#63 was transposed by someone listening to the audio. Perhaps they heard wrong, or whoever was speaking was wrong? Proof will be in the text.

 

The paper didn't list this bill as one releases to the full senate. Was it wrong? If its a new bill what happens to it?

 

Cannot believe they think this will have limited financial impact.

 

Exactly.  It's a point to watch out for, but nothing is for certain.

 

According to http://www.njleg.state.nj.us, the status of S2723 is reported from Senate Committee.

4/25/2013 Introduced in the Senate, Referred to Senate Law and Public Safety Committee

5/9/2013 Reported from Senate Committee as a Substitute, 2nd Reading

 

 

But the bill text is as-of 4/25.  There was a first substitution bill, and the one passed today was the second substitution bill.

 

Even the committee members did not have the bill text when they passed it today.

[wooly bugger 1]

Exactly.  It's a point to watch out for, but nothing is for certain.

 

According to http://www.njleg.state.nj.us, the status of S2723 is reported from Senate Committee.

4/25/2013 Introduced in the Senate, Referred to Senate Law and Public Safety Committee

5/9/2013 Reported from Senate Committee as a Substitute, 2nd Reading

 

 

But the bill text is as-of 4/25.  There was a first substitution bill, and the one passed today was the second substitution bill.

 

Even the committee members did not have the bill text when they passed it today.

This is a remarkable statement on how seriously they take their jobs. First, the bill was slipped into the agenda at the last minute, then the text of the bill is kept secret, even from the committee, then they apparently didn't even bother to quantify the budgetary impact of the ghost bill, beyond "not much," and now it's going to the full Senate.

[Guest]

so if I understand the bill correctly, there is now going to be a 7 day waiting period for HG purchases? Is that on top of the already min. of 30 day wait just to get the P2P/FID?

 

Never mind, I'm moving and it wont affect me

[MattH 0]

The original text said "7 day waiting period from the time the application was submitted". Who has ever had an application for P2P come back in under 7 days?

 

 

Again, we'll have to wait to see the text of the revision to know anything for sure.

[Barms 98]

I just read the bill online and I'm with Howard. I keep reading "permit to purchase handgun" in the driver license stuff

 

Am i totally confused or do these guy think your P2P is some permanent thing you carry with you forever? And that's why they want it in the DL

 

Could they have botched this so bad they don't even know what a P2P is ?

 

I know you guys are drilling down in the embedded stuff but I can't get past the "permit to purchase" language in it

[Njgunowner 2]

You already need either an FID, copy of your P2P or a carry permit to purchase handgun ammo. You don't need to have a FID to buy a handgun, just a P2P, so that is why they say you can use a copy of your P2P to buy HG ammo.

Incorrect, no dealer in this state who values his license will sell you handgun without your FPID and P2P in hand. 

[Malsua 1,422]

Incorrect, no dealer in this state who values his license will sell you handgun without your FPID and P2P in hand. 

 

Says who?  There is no legal requirement that a person have a FPID to have a permit to purchase a pistol.   It would be foolish not to check the box when filling out the forms, but it is not a legal requirement.

[MattH 0]

Incorrect, no dealer in this state who values his license will sell you handgun without your FPID and P2P in hand.

A dealer may not do it, but the law does not require it.

[BCeagle 12]

I cant wait to leave this state and all this BS just hastens it.  I will take my guns, which they wont care about, but when I take the jobs I help provide they can go burn in hell.

[Tunaman 548]

Says who?  There is no legal requirement that a person have a FPID to have a permit to purchase a pistol.   It would be foolish not to check the box when filling out the forms, but it is not a legal requirement.

Dont you need an SBI number?  I thought that number was from your FPID...?

[DLF 1]

Dont you need an SBI number?  I thought that number was from your FPID...?

Your SBI number is listed on your P2P.