Question on NICS timeframes

[HINCHMAN 4]

I have a question. So I just got my PPP's after applying for them on 2/20. I am pretty familiar with how my town works, and am in touch with the officer who handles the firearms permitting. Tomorrow I will go and buy a pistol. I hear nics is 14 days. I bought a rifle back in feb and it took 4 days to get the nics back. I am expecting 14 day delay. Isint there something in the law that says if they dont get back to you in a certain amount of time you are free to receive the gun?

[tj462nj 32]

no, nics can take as long as they want for the initial response, if the response comes back pending, they must give an approval or denial within 3 business days, otherwise the delivery can be made if no response is given within that time frame

[HINCHMAN 4]

so if in 3 days they dont answer I can take the gun?

[tj462nj 32]

so if in 3 days they dont answer I can take the gun?

3 business days if the Initial response comes back "delayed"

[HINCHMAN 4]

oh, ok. from what I have been hearing there is no response for like 15 days now, so I guess that option goes out the window.

[tj462nj 32]

correct, they must give a 'delayed' response before the 3 days rule even comes into play, I just got nics approvals today for the ones I submitted on 4/17

[HINCHMAN 4]

this sucks.

 

Thank you for clearing that up.

[tj462nj 32]

sure, you are welcome

[Hare Trigger 0]

I just picked up a pistol today. NICS took 16 days.

[dh-wp 0]

Put in on evening of April 17 and it came back this morning (May 2nd)

[gunguy1960 2]

Sorry, Im confused, are we suppose to get our gun if after 3 buisness days nics doesnt deny us? Somebody had this post earlier which seemed to say that is the law, I cant find the post now. Why would dealers keep us waiting longer than 3 days?

[67gtonut 847]

No....

If it comes back "pending delayed"

The 3 day clock starts....

But I still don't know an FFL that will still release the firearm

[gunguy1960 2]

I find it incredible that no one has fought to clear this up, how long would it take before the community would speak up? Waiting a month? How about two? I know its forbidden in these parts to rock the boat, but seriously, we are losing permits with these delays and dealers are losing buisness.

[PK90 3,570]

I find it incredible that no one has fought to clear this up, how long would it take before the community would speak up? Waiting a month? How about two? I know its forbidden in these parts to rock the boat, but seriously, we are losing permits with these delays and dealers are losing buisness.

What have YOU done? What are you waiting for?

[gunguy1960 2]

Like I said, apologies for rocking the boat.

[Bob B 103]

no, nics can take as long as they want for the initial response, if the response comes back pending, they must give an approval or denial within 3 business days, otherwise the delivery can be made if no response is given within that time frame

 

Tony, what is the source for this. I would like to look at it. Thanks.

[222 3]

 

 

Tony, what is the source for this. I would like to look at it. Thanks.

 

USC 922(t)

CFR Title 28 chapter 1 Part 25 subpart A

 

25.2

Delayed means initial response given to FFL is in open status.

 

Open status are non-cancelled transactions without final determination. Open transactions does not prohibit FFL transfer after 3 business days had lapsed since the FFL provided to the system information on prospective transferee.

 

Contrary to information otherwise, law says 3 days start from when FFL provided the information. Law does not say 3 days does not start from initial response of pending. FFLs have discretion after 3 days.

[222 3]

Actual citation.

 

www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/25.2

 

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) has many parts. It takes the laws from USC and writes rules for parts of the Federal Government. Title 28 Chapter 1 refers to Department of Justice.

 

If you sue the government, you sue them for not following their own rules. Constitution, Federal statutes, administrative codes, etc...

 

NJ has no laws regarding NICS. NJ operates NJ NICS under federal rules as POC state. By federal preemption, NJ would be precluded from writing rules that explicitly differ from federal rules.

[Bob B 103]

I think the source of this is the Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, page 218.

 

218

A NICS DELAY...

 

A Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) will receive the following instructions when a call is transferred

from the FBI National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) call center to the

FBI NICS Section in an open transaction resulting in a delay:

 

"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting

information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination

of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady

Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."

 

I believe that NJ NICS are not providing any response (FFL's please confirm). I further believe that NJ NICS are not submitting the NICS check to the FBI until they do a series of other database checks that are normally done during the permitting process, but not mandated for the NICS process (Promis Gavel, Domestic Violence Registry, ATS/ACS, DMV database, Juvenile Records, etc.). I think that NJ NICS has become another full fledged permit style background check, when there is no statute and no Administrative Code requirement to do that. Essentially, NJ NICS has exceeded their authority and they are keeping legal transfers from taking place by providing the FFL's with no response, rather than a "delayed" response.

[222 3]

 

I believe that NJ NICS are not providing any response (FFL's please confirm). I further believe that NJ NICS are not submitting the NICS check to the FBI

 

 

USC 922 (t) - " 3 business days has elapsed since the licensee contacted the system..."

CFR " three business days have elapsed since the FFL provided to the system..."

 

 

There is no provision for FBI to EVER respond, with pending, rejected, etc... NICS does not have a statutory duty to ever respond. The 3 days is the intended process cure for lack of duty to respond. If after 3 days NICS determine applicant should not have the firearm, and FFL transferred, the case is referred to ATF for retrieval of firearm.

 

When FBI and NJ designated NJ as POC state, the "system" is NJ NICS. There is no provision for 'licensee' or 'FFL' to track the intricacies between state and federal system, or timestamping messages in between. Interface between NJ and FBI is responsibility for NJ and FBI. FFL deals with designated 'system'.

[222 3]

Dup.

[Bob B 103]

USC 922 (t) - " 3 business days has elapsed since the licensee contacted the system..."

CFR " three business days have elapsed since the FFL provided to the system..."

 

 

There is no provision for FBI to EVER respond, with pending, rejected, etc...

 

When FBI and NJ designated NJ as POC state, the "system" is NJ NICS. There is no provision for 'licensee' or 'FFL' to track the intricacies between state and federal system, or timestamping messages in between. Interface between NJ and FBI is responsibility for NJ and FBI. FFL deals with designated 'system'.

 

That is the way I read it also, but the FFLs' licenses are on the line, so they are going by the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide which says proceed, denied or delayed. No response does not seem to be covered, that I can find. So it needs to be clarified by the ATF, or FBI so that FFL's aren't worried about breaking the law or the regulations. ...if I'm understanding everything correctly.

[222 3]

 

No response does not seem to be covered, that I can find. So it needs to be clarified by the ATF, or FBI so that FFL's aren't worried about breaking the law or the regulations. ...if I'm understanding everything correctly.

 

No response is covered. No response is an "open" transaction. It is non-cancelled and non-final.

'Delayed' becomes 'open'. Nowhere in definition of 'Open' does not owe its definition to 'delayed'

 

The two definitions are explicitly cited on FBI's own website on the subject. The reference guide you cited is a subset.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/a-nics-delay

[Nikos 31]

222, that's how I understand it as well.

 

"Open" is defined.

 

Open means those non-canceled transactions where the FFL has not been notified of the final determination. In cases of ‘‘open’’ responses, the NICS continues researching potentially prohibiting records regarding the transferee and, if definitive information is obtained, communicates to the FFL the final determination that the check resulted in a proceed or a deny. An ‘‘open’’ response does not prohibit an FFL from transferring a firearm after three business days have elapsed since the FFL provided to the system the identifying information about the prospective transferee

 

http://www.fbi.gov/a...23-2004-on-nics

[pjd832 146]

this is not directed at any shops or ffls on this site...more a general theory of nj ffls/dealers and the nics drama on a whole....in all reality who is really getting jerked around...dealers...or buyers?....id be willing to bet if the process suddenly changed whereby the buyer paid the state and it was dealers that had to sit and wait for their call to get their money released by the state for weeks and approaching a month now ...they wouldnt be so complacent...easy for them to shrug it off they have the money in hand before faxing off the forms most places...

 

edit: heres a fun idea...since its no big deal..how about buyers dont pay for anything until approval is back ?....think theyll go for that?...

[222 3]

 

how about buyers dont pay for anything until approval is back ?....think theyll go for that?...

 

I didn't pay for my last firearm until I completed the transaction by taking delivery.

 

As with anything else, if you are willing to pay up front, that is between private parties.

[pjd832 146]

I didn't pay for my last firearm until I completed the transaction by taking delivery.

 

As with anything else, if you are willing to pay up front, that is between private parties.

i havent bought from any of the ffls from this board...but every one i have and friends have expect payment up front..and its not "private parties"...its brick and mortar stores....prior to the nics drama youd fill out paperwork pay then they call....so its the same only now you give them money (sizable amounts) then go sit and wait for the state to have the time to process

[222 3]

 

.and its not "private parties"...its brick and mortar stores....

 

I did not mean private parties in the sense of federal firearms licensee versus 'private party' non-licensee.

 

I meant private parties in sense of contractual law, whereby terms of delivery of goods, services and tender of payments can be customized if mutually agreed.

 

Nothing about a firearms transaction demands you pay for the firearm upfront. The only thing you need to pay for upfront is the NICS check. Once that is approved, the firearms transaction can happen.

 

If you don't like your FFL's policy, talk to them about it (nicely), or transact elsewhere.

[mustang69 505]

this is not directed at any shops or ffls on this site...more a general theory of nj ffls/dealers and the nics drama on a whole....in all reality who is really getting jerked around...dealers...or buyers?....id be willing to bet if the process suddenly changed whereby the buyer paid the state and it was dealers that had to sit and wait for their call to get their money released by the state for weeks and approaching a month now ...they wouldnt be so complacent...easy for them to shrug it off they have the money in hand before faxing off the forms most places...

 

edit: heres a fun idea...since its no big deal..how about buyers dont pay for anything until approval is back ?....think theyll go for that?...

 

That's how it works for me at my preferred dealer - they know me, I'm a repeat customer, no BS when I'm in to buy. I tell them I want something, they put it aside, submit the NICS check and I pay for it all when I pick it up. Building a relationship with a vendor pays dividends...

[pjd832 146]

That's how it works for me at my preferred dealer - they know me, I'm a repeat customer, no BS when I'm in to buy. I tell them I want something, they put it aside, submit the NICS check and I pay for it all when I pick it up. Building a relationship with a vendor pays dividends...

I did not mean private parties in the sense of federal firearms licensee versus 'private party' non-licensee.

 

I meant private parties in sense of contractual law, whereby terms of delivery of goods, services and tender of payments can be customized if mutually agreed.

 

Nothing about a firearms transaction demands you pay for the firearm upfront. The only thing you need to pay for upfront is the NICS check. Once that is approved, the firearms transaction can happen.

 

If you don't like your FFL's policy, talk to them about it (nicely), or transact elsewhere.

 

so its ok if you dont pay first to wait another month for something that is instant everywhere else and used to be here...while you already waited 1-9 months to get the magical permit that is like milk on a summer sidewalk....permits going void waiting on nics checks... they have been slowly stretching the delay out....at the height of panic...it was a day or two...and has gradually increaded to almost 3 weeks now? ......my point was the general sentiment that buyers should just accept the bs thats being pushed on us...and that dealers dont really care as they are still selling guns ...and if it was them waiting for what they are after their attitudes might be different....when will the nics delay reach "unacceptable"? 2..3..4...6 months?