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HD Shotgun Pump VS Semi

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Carl... I think if the day (and we hope that day never comes) that we actually pull a trigger to save a life. My ringing ears come secondary to saving a life. But I do understand why you are inquiring. I just think many people here will say: save life first worry about ears second.

I have shot my ar and handgun In semi enclosed dark structure without hearing protection to understand how that would be... It was loud and my ears were ringing... My hearing and vision returned to normal shortly after...

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When you say things like "sticking your eye in a scope" you are verifying that your knowledge on this subject is very limited at best....

 

Red dot is faster than iron sights in EVERY situation... You are referencing one dot as opposed to lining up two points sigh ifons... And you shoot with both eyes open... So you are not putting your eye in a tube...

 

The reason you reference something like swat is because they are operating in tight confined areas... Urban... Inside structures.. The tools they choose are likely ideal for that application...

 

Also as I stated you gave no consideration to over penetration.... This is where an AR or similar carbine will really shine...

 

Obviously, there are many ways to approach this...I do love the semi-personal attacks - that one only gets on the NJGF! They are predictable AND humorous!...Always bizzar, how folks are incapable of stating an opinion without them here...

 

Just some coments:

  • One can use anything they want for HD - matters on context and your level of training.
  • The other person said he would use a 5.56 - that will work, and would be good in case the zombie has body armor.
  • You asked why i said pistol over long gun...I DID stipulate that it depends on your house layout and tactical appoach (but you chose to ignore that in your discssion)....My house is small, not much space to manuver a long-gun...As far as some references - watch the Dynamic SG video (Magpul)...The two Guru's - you will recognize them - choose a Pistol over a SG for HD.
  • Sorry to tell you .45 acp is a proven stopper - of course there is no guarentees - no need to even stipulate that...
  • As far as shooting one hand - again - small house - point blank range - laser/light combo - if you practice this type of shooting it is not a problem. If you educate yourself, you will find that sticking the gun out with two hands is not always the best approcah...Again, all about the context.
  • Your refernce where you are comparing HD to a Seal/Swat team is silly (i could use harsher words but choose not too). HD is you, maybe your wife against the perp...Vs a full team of seals with effectively many eyes and fields of vision...AR/red dot can work, but I am not fond of sticking my eye into a scope at CQB distances (cuts down on field of vision when). -Remember you are not a "team" of eyes.
Now, your turn, were is you evidance, and experience, for your opinion? And please, no swat team references - even if you have been on one, are on one now, or wana-be one ;-). That is not an appropriate analogy (see above).

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When you say things like "sticking your eye in a scope" you are verifying that your knowledge on this subject is very limited at best....

 

Red dot is faster than iron sights in EVERY situation... You are referencing one dot as opposed to lining up two points sigh ifons... And you shoot with both eyes open... So you are not putting your eye in a tube...

 

The reason you reference something like swat is because they are operating in tight confined areas... Urban... Inside structures.. The tools they choose are likely ideal for that application...

 

Also as I stated you gave no consideration to over penetration.... This is where an AR or similar carbine will really shine...

 

Vlad, i can't argue with that - for you...For me, just as easy to line up a gost ring on a tactical SG - cause this is what I trained with. I also prefer a little spread that I get from 00...Different strokes as they say...Many ways to approch this and I am open minded enough to see and achnowledge as such...BUT, I do not concure with the argument that "cause the swat team uses an ar it is the best choice" which High-Exposure made...And that is what he stated...Swat generally operates in pairs/groups in CQs..HD you are generally on your own - big difference....But SG/AR/Pistol - all can work it is a matter of preference and training...And for High Exposure not to acknoeledge that  SG &/or 45 is a viable approach is ludicrous at best - norrow minded at worst.

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When you say things like "sticking your eye in a scope" you are verifying that your knowledge on this subject is very limited at best....

 

Red dot is faster than iron sights in EVERY situation... You are referencing one dot as opposed to lining up two points sigh ifons... And you shoot with both eyes open... So you are not putting your eye in a tube...

 

The reason you reference something like swat is because they are operating in tight confined areas... Urban... Inside structures.. The tools they choose are likely ideal for that application...

 

Also as I stated you gave no consideration to over penetration.... This is where an AR or similar carbine will really shine...

 

BTW, even better than gost ring/red-dot for HD is a laser...Not a big fan of them except in the home...Point and shoot - no need to bring up to eye level...I have them on my HD-pistol, looking to get one for my SG....Have you tried a laser on your HD-AR?

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BTW, even better than gost ring/red-dot for HD is a laser...Not a big fan of them except in the home...Point and shoot - no need to bring up to eye level...I have them on my HD-pistol, looking to get one for my SG....Have you tried a laser on your HD-AR?

I have a laser on my ar... The issue on a SG is finding a laser that will hold up might be tough... Further I really would never have the need to shoot from a non ready position... If you are clearing an area the weapon is gonna be up and ready.... That is why I really like the red dot... It's there in my vision but so is everything else... Laser is really fun... But in close tight shooting I'm probably just as fast with a red dot...

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It sounds like you have had some basic firearms training...But the dangourous thing is that you don't know what you don't know...This is what makes your advise dangourous, especially when you come acrross like you have some special credentials...The fact that you aren't aware nor have trained with 1 hand shooting applications is telling...The fact that you can't differentiate between HD tactical teqniques and SWAT-Team techniques is also telling...And then your overlay of arrogance takes the cake.

 

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not (pretty sure you are), especially since you're accusing High Exposure of personal attacks as if you're on some sort of pedestal, and then you make a post like #28. It's rather hypocritical.

 

Regardless, you're attacking a Straw Man here. Can you shoot with one hand and is it good to train for? Sure, but two hands are always better and I've seen exactly zero reputable professional trainers suggest using a knife-handgun combo. Looking at what High Exposure has said and what you have said, High Exposure is much more rooted in fact.

 

As a side note, it's also polite to keep your posts organized because it makes the topic more readable (i.e. posts #27, #28, and #30 could have been one post). Next time please edit your later thoughts together.

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I'm not sure if you're trolling or not (pretty sure you are), especially since you're accusing High Exposure of personal attacks as if you're on some sort of pedestal, and then you make a post like #28. It's rather hypocritical.

 

Regardless, you're attacking a Straw Man here. Can you shoot with one hand and is it good to train for? Sure, but two hands are always better and I've seen exactly zero reputable professional trainers suggest using a knife-handgun combo. Looking at what High Exposure has said and what you have said, High Exposure is much more rooted in fact.

 

As a side note, it's also polite to keep your posts organized because it makes the topic more readable (i.e. posts #27, #28, and #30 could have been one post). Next time please edit your later thoughts together.

 

Not going to rehash my points again...No idea what the heck you are talking about as far as "trolling" - if I have a different view then you - that's trolling?...Nope, High exposure started with the inflammatory comments - go reread them again (see below)..You want to side with him that is your business (and a reflection on you), doesn’t change the fact that he posted some Knucklehead comments.

 

This is what he said – inflammatory or not?:

“But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The above statement is the dumbest thing I have ever read regarding HD/CQB on the internets. At no point in your rambling do you even approach a cogent and valid argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

It goes beyond inflammatory – with the mention of “God”…

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Not going to rehash my points again...No idea what the heck you are talking about as far as "trolling" - if I have a different view then you - that's trolling?...Nope, High exposure started with the inflammatory comments - go reread them again (see below)..You want to side with him that is your business (and a reflection on you), doesn’t change the fact that he posted some Knucklehead comments.

 

This is what he said – inflammatory or not?:

“But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The above statement is the dumbest thing I have ever read regarding HD/CQB on the internets. At no point in your rambling do you even approach a cogent and valid argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

It goes beyond inflammatory – with the mention of “God”…

 

You're attacking a Straw Man again. I never stated that what he said wasn't inflammatory. You inferred that. All I stated was that by condemning High Exposure for being inflammatory and then immediately following up that accusation with an inflammatory comment of your own, is hypocritical.

 

I also never expressly stated an opinion. You're inferring my opinion and assuming that I'm only suggesting you're trolling because you disagree with me. You're being fallacious.

 

Also the humor in his post was clearly lost on you, since his "inflammatory comment" was just a plug from a movie quote.

 

I've carefully read both your points and High Exposure's points and will state again that what he has stated is more rooted in fact. I have never heard a professional instructor advocate for the knife in one hand pistol in the other tactic. If you'd like to further support your claims by, say, sourcing where you learned your tactics and fundamentals from, it would significantly help your case.

 

If, however, you insist on getting bogged down in semantics and feigned hurt-feelings then I won't continue the discussion.

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This is what he said – inflammatory or not?:

“But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The above statement is the dumbest thing I have ever read regarding HD/CQB on the internets. At no point in your rambling do you even approach a cogent and valid argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

It goes beyond inflammatory – with the mention of “God”…

 

Lol "oh no, he mentioned God"..... Settle down its a quote from the movie "Billy Madison"

 

 

 

As for the rest of the arguments, I prefer my AR with a red dot for HD,  its faster, shorter and more manuverable than my shotgun, and with 62gr softpoints im not worried about overpenetration.

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You're attacking a Straw Man again. I never stated that what he said wasn't inflammatory. You inferred that. All I stated was that by condemning High Exposure for being inflammatory and then immediately following up that accusation with an inflammatory comment of your own, is hypocritical.

 

I also never expressly stated an opinion. You're inferring my opinion and assuming that I'm only suggesting you're trolling because you disagree with me. You're being fallacious.

 

Also the humor in his post was clearly lost on you, since his "inflammatory comment" was just a plug from a movie quote.

 

I've carefully read both your points and High Exposure's points and will state again that what he has stated is more rooted in fact. I have never heard a professional instructor advocate for the knife in one hand pistol in the other tactic. If you'd like to further support your claims by, say, sourcing where you learned your tactics and fundamentals from, it would significantly help your case.

 

If, however, you insist on getting bogged down in semantics and feigned hurt-feelings then I won't continue the discussion.

Ok, so now we are getting somewhere...I never said one hand shooting is the best in all circumstances - of course it isn't...I said, for clearing a room in my small tight quarters house, that is how I train...Why? Because unlke the moveies, I don't think it is kicking in the door and blowing away the perp(s) on the far side of the room - well away from you....More likely, he is hiding behind the door ready to grab your weopon. The standard, well published, technique in this situation is to use your weak hand to ward off the attempt at your weopon, and shoot one handed while indexing near your chest. A laser on the pistol facilitates this trimendously. I augmented this standary technique with a machetti (excuse my spelling) in the weak hand (as stated, different strokes)...The "cutting the room into pie slices", is one of the standard approches, (using 2 hands on the pistol), and a good one - and I can accomplish this with one handed pistol/laser as needed. You suppose to be standing well away from the door so your weopon can't be grabbed. But not all doors/rooms, because of layout, work well with this alone. Hence, my specific approch with the knife/pistol/laser.

Not saying my approch is best for everyone - depends on the context/layout, the enviornment, and how you train....But neither is using an "AR-always", and "two-handed pistol" in the HD context.

 

So now that we are past the Junior HS stuff - I'd be interested to know how you clear a room in a HD situation by yourself? (I am always open to new ideas, or old ideas explained).

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Ok, so now we are getting somewhere...I never said one hand shooting is the best in all circumstances - of course it isn't...I said, for clearing a room in my small tight quarters house, that is how I train...Why? Because unlke the moveies, I don't think it is kicking in the door and blowing away the perp(s) on the far side of the room - well away from you....More likely, he is hiding behind the door ready to grab your weopon. The standard, well published, technique in this situation is to use your weak hand to ward off the attempt at your weopon, and shoot one handed while indexing near your chest. A laser on the pistol facilitates this trimendously. I augmented this standary technique with a machetti (excuse my spelling) in the weak hand (as stated, different strokes)...The "cutting the room into pie slices", is one of the standard approches, (using 2 hands on the pistol), and a good one - and I can accomplish this with one handed pistol/laser as needed. You suppose to be standing well away from the door so your weopon can't be grabbed. But not all doors/rooms, because of layout, work well with this alone. Hence, my specific approch with the knife/pistol/laser.

Not saying my approch is best for everyone - depends on the context/layout, the enviornment, and how you train....But neither is using an "AR-always", and "two-handed pistol" in the HD context.

 

So now that we are past the Junior HS stuff - I'd be interested to know how you clear a room in a HD situation by yourself? (I am always open to new ideas, or old ideas explained).

Over penetration?

 

How would I clear a house? How do you even imagine knowing there is an intruder in your home? Do you have an alarm? Or do you imagine you are woken up by a glass break? Do you imagine that the intruder breaks in so he can hide and jump out and attack you? Do you imagine he is alone? There are a million variables..

 

If you are concerned about weapon retention anything short of a sling is a gamble...

 

And you keep saying an ar is not best... But you are really not supporting that stance...

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Ok, so now we are getting somewhere...I never said one hand shooting is the best in all circumstances - of course it isn't...I said, for clearing a room in my small tight quarters house, that is how I train...Why? Because unlke the moveies, I don't think it is kicking in the door and blowing away the perp(s) on the far side of the room - well away from you....More likely, he is hiding behind the door ready to grab your weopon. The standard, well published, technique in this situation is to use your weak hand to ward off the attempt at your weopon, and shoot one handed while indexing near your chest. A laser on the pistol facilitates this trimendously. I augmented this standary technique with a machetti (excuse my spelling) in the weak hand (as stated, different strokes)...The "cutting the room into pie slices", is one of the standard approches, (using 2 hands on the pistol), and a good one - and I can accomplish this with one handed pistol/laser as needed. You suppose to be standing well away from the door so your weopon can't be grabbed. But not all doors/rooms, because of layout, work well with this alone. Hence, my specific approch with the knife/pistol/laser.

Not saying my approch is best for everyone - depends on the context/layout, the enviornment, and how you train....But neither is using an "AR-always", and "two-handed pistol" in the HD context.

 

So now that we are past the Junior HS stuff - I'd be interested to know how you clear a room in a HD situation by yourself? (I am always open to new ideas, or old ideas explained).

 

I don't clear rooms because my property is not worth the endangering of my life or the life of my family. If I hear something go bump in the night and I hear enough to suspect it's an intruder, I'll call the police and set up at the end of the hallway where the bedrooms are located and wait for the police to arrive. I don't go looking for a fight. If the situation can be resolved without force, that's the avenue I take.

 

I'd much rather deal with an insurance agency to recover the value of stolen or damaged items than with a state prosecutor.

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Over penetration?

 

How would I clear a house? How do you even imagine knowing there is an intruder in your home? Do you have an alarm? Or do you imagine you are woken up by a glass break? Do you imagine that the intruder breaks in so he can hide and jump out and attack you? Do you imagine he is alone? There are a million variables..

 

If you are concerned about weapon retention anything short of a sling is a gamble...

 

And you keep saying an ar is not best... But you are really not supporting that stance...

LOL - I didn't say ar isn't the best - just said I choose otherwise...Your point about all the variables is right on - and (exactly) why no one can say any one approach is the best...

 

BTW, still havn't heard from any AR proponent how they clear a room (in detail)...All I heard is "AR".

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I don't clear rooms because my property is not worth the endangering of my life or the life of my family. If I hear something go bump in the night and I hear enough to suspect it's an intruder, I'll call the police and set up at the end of the hallway where the bedrooms are located and wait for the police to arrive. I don't go looking for a fight. If the situation can be resolved without force, that's the avenue I take.

 

I'd much rather deal with an insurance agency to recover the value of stolen or damaged items than with a state prosecutor.

Those are wise words in general...But, I guess one could argue (not my situation personally) if you have kids down the hall you may have to go get them....

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LOL - I didn't say ar isn't the best - just said I choose otherwise...Your point about all the variables is right on - and (exactly) why no one can say any one approach is the best...

 

BTW, still havn't heard from any AR proponent how they clear a room (in detail)...All I heard is "AR".

Doors in my home are open... If I heard enough to really believe there was an intruder I would use my AR on a sling...

 

I would just go through the house at angles... Doorway straight back is initial line of sight... Then work the angle...

 

To open a door I used support hand and sling to support weapon.. If I NEED to shoot in that split instance an ar is better than a shotgun because one handed ar shooting is way easier than 12 ga one handed shooting.. Next shot follow up is faster...

 

Further since the projectile has less mass it is more easily disrupted by a target or interior wall... Thus reducing concern for over penetration ...

 

That is why an ar works

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Sgt toadette makes a great point which most experts state- stay put and call the cavelry, combat auto made many good points, and hallways being like trench warfare is interesting, most houses are small and if something happens it seems up close and personal is the way to think, long barrels have their own problems, I had an intruder in my house, and I have multiple kids in various rooms, I couldnt stay put, it was no fun working corners and making sure everyone was safe, the intruder bolted out the door, looking back I think he probably heard my wife yelling "get the gun!" and that made him rethink his plans. The police arrived after 15 minutes and they put their hands on the doorknobs so the perps prints were not to be found. The point is be ready to defend yourself, and hopefully we all bring something to the table to consider.

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This is probably off topic but I couldnt imagine shooting either a 12gauge or a .556 inside your house at night with out blinding yourself and going deaf. Whats the best way to minimize those factors in a HD situation?

Carl, you will most definitely not be blinded by any muzzle flash. I do a lot of shooting in the dark, both with and without night vision and I have never been blinded, even for an instant. Additionally, your body does some amazing stuff when under extreme stress to protect itsself. One of those things is called auditory exclusion, where you don't even recognize loud noises as gunshots and have no after effects or ringing post incident. Most people (I know I did) experience this when involved in a critical incident.

 

If it is still a concern, invest in some electronic/active hearing pro that will protect your hearing but still enable you to hear what is going on. Some are even so good that they will actually enhance your hearing a bit.

 

Now, Combat Auto, let's chat... :)

 

Obviously, there are many ways to approach this...I do love the semi-personal attacks - that one only gets on the NJGF! They are predictable AND humorous!...Always bizzar, how folks are incapable of stating an opinion without them here...

 

Just some coments:

 

  • One can use anything they want for HD - matters on context and your level of training.
  • The other person said he would use a 5.56 - that will work, and would be good in case the zombie has body armor.
  • You asked why i said pistol over long gun...I DID stipulate that it depends on your house layout and tactical appoach (but you chose to ignore that in your discssion)....My house is small, not much space to manuver a long-gun...As far as some references - watch the Dynamic SG video (Magpul)...The two Guru's - you will recognize them - choose a Pistol over a SG for HD.
  • Sorry to tell you .45 acp is a proven stopper - of course there is no guarentees - no need to even stipulate that...
  • As far as shooting one hand - again - small house - point blank range - laser/light combo - if you practice this type of shooting it is not a problem. If you educate yourself, you will find that sticking the gun out with two hands is not always the best approcah...Again, all about the context.
  • Your refernce where you are comparing HD to a Seal/Swat team is silly (i could use harsher words but choose not too). HD is you, maybe your wife against the perp...Vs a full team of seals with effectively many eyes and fields of vision...AR/red dot can work, but I am not fond of sticking my eye into a scope at CQB distances (cuts down on field of vision when). -Remember you are not a "team" of eyes.
Now, your turn, were is you evidance, and experience, for your opinion? And please, no swat team references - even if you have been on one, are on one now, or wana-be one ;-). That is not an appropriate analogy (see above).

 

Brother, you are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

1) Yes anyone can use whatever they want for HD. If you want to use a whiffle ball bat or harsh language that is your choice as only you and yours will be affected by your decisions. However, there are tools that are more effective than others, for example, a pistol is better than a bat, a long gun is better than a pistol. This is indisputable.

 

2) If you bothered to read what I actually wrote, you would see that I also use a 5.56 platform for my chosen HD weapon. Regardless of body armor, it will work. It will also be more effective as far as terminal ballistics and the end result on the bad guy, as well as pose less of a danger of over-penetration through typical household construction materials. I have tested this last part personally using a 12g with 18" barrel shooting slugs and 00B, a 16" AR with .223 64gr Soft Nose (Fed TRU) an MP5 with 9mm hollow points and ball and pistols in .40 and .45 with hollow nose and ball ammo. The 5.56 soft nose had the least over penetrating issues (note not zero just least) with the 12g foster type slug and MP5 with ball ammo having the most.

 

3) Oh, you watched a Magpul DVD. Why didn't you say so? :rofl: CA, Watching a DVD does not a subject matter expert make. Your caveat of "house layout" and "tactical approach" doesn't matter. There are ways to clear small rooms and confined spaces such as closets, crawlspaces and half baths with a long gun that are very effective. Why clear a whole house with a pistol because you have one or two small rooms that may be difficult to check with a long gun?

 

4) Heads up - Sacred cow about to be slain! Sorry CA. The .45 ACP is not a proven stopper. Nothing that you can hold in your two hands will absolutely drop somebody where you want them dropped. Using a shotgun or rifle caliber definitely increases your chances, but still does not assure immediate incapacitation. Accurate, fast, multiple shot placement (with an appropriate "fighting" caliber) to a critical area of the body is the only proven stopper. That's it. And when using pistol rounds, even that is not guaranteed. I have seen after action reports and talked to Officers that have had .45 and 9mm bouncing off of skulls, 17 rounds of .45 ACP, with numerous good center mass and face hits, and the perp lived. I have seen 00B to the midsection where the guy still fought for quite a bit before going unconscious and being brought to the ER (he lived), 11 rounds of 5.56 after a pursuit and the perp lived, and a suicide attempt where 00B to the head didn't kill the kid.

 

Trust your tactics and marksmanship to end a fight, not your caliber (Assuming you are using aservice caliber)

 

5) You are right, sticking your gun out into space that you can not visually clear is a recipe for disaster. There are techniques that minimize this problem, and none of them require you to shoot from the hip, shoot one handed, or choose a "pistol and knife super death-blossom combo" over a long gun for an entire operation. They do require a little attention to detail, some practice in weapon retention techniques (for example: You may need to bring a pistol to the "speed rock" position for a split second as you move through a fatal funnel, or take a knee to automatically make a bad guy holding your muzzle aim said muzzle at his own belly for you), or as Vlad said, put a sling on your long gun.

 

6) I initially didn't bring up CAG/SWAT/SEAL 6 as a tactics issue, I brought it up as a gear one. Again, if 00B and .45ACP are such death dealers, why aren't all the special units out there that are tasked with Direct Action/CQB/FISHing carrying nothing but shotguns and 1911s? Why has the shotgun been mostly relegated to a less lethal and breaching platform in modern urban/CQC/CQB operations? Maybe because we have learned a thing or two about physiology, terminal ballistics, gunfighting, and tactics over the last few years of conflicts and war and realized that there are better tools for the job of Fighting In Someone's House.

 

But since you brought it up... How does my analogy of SWAT/CAG/SEALs not apply to HD when that type of fighting is squarely in their wheelhouse. They are quite literally the "Pros from Dover" when speaking about the kinds of TTPs you will need for HD, but, "Trench Warfare" from 100 years ago :rolleyes: makes the cut in your mind for relevancy?

 

Let me clue you in on another fact: HD is tactical. The same Tactics Techniques and Procedures (TTPs) used by a SWAT team/CAG/SEAL 6, etc... moving through a building are the same TTPs that will let you come out on top in the event of a home invasion or HD scenario. These TTPs are proven time and time again and they work. If they didn't they would be replaced.

 

Yes, there are some different tactics when conducting CQB/CQC with a team vs. alone or in pairs. But, most of the stuff done by an individual member of that team when clearing a structure translates directly to what needs to get done in an 'all by yourself' HD situation. None of the relevant TTPs involve bringing inferior weapons or less capable platforms to the fight. Ever.

 

Bottom line here - The basics of shooting a bad guy before he shoots you are the same regardless if you are wearing camouflage, navy blue and black, or your pajamas - Get the most effective weapon system you have in your hands and use it in the most efficient manner possible. Period.

 

If you knew anything at all about actually fighting with a firearm or the basics of tactical movement from real world training under the eye of a reputable instructor, you would know this.

 

Also, referencing your "stick your eye in a scope" comment, Vlad covered it already but I want to reiterate. That is not how a RDS is used. Both eyes remain open and situational awareness is maintained. In fact, using an RDS is less intrusive into your vision and more intuitive than iron sights and is much faster without reducing your field of vision - one - single - degree. Barring some kind of eye issues, this is true for anyone using an RDS. As Vlad also said, Your statement shows how little you actually know about what you are talking about.

 

As far as my background and experience, I am a municipal Police Officer that is in charge of all firearms and tactical training for my agency as well as a team leader on a regional SWAT team where I am also the head firearms trainer. I have a fairly solid grasp of CQB/CQC. I attend and conduct high level training regularly, often with members of special units in the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fed Gov't. I have performed real world hostage rescue, active shooter response, CQB/CQC and I have been shot at but never hit. ;)

 

 

PS High-Exposure...So you are using a cockie cutter approach:

 

SWAT Team uses AR - so I will also.

Two had pistol is basic shooting approach - so I will also.

 

You need to learn adaptive style based on context...

 

So, my Friend, I belive it is (you) who: "But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." -Just saying.

 

:facepalm:

 

You completely missed the points I was making in my earlier comments (including my sense of humor). Alowerlevel, Sgt Toadette and Vlad picked them up just fine though.

 

It has nothing to do with a "cookie cutter" approach to tactics or gear. I choose an AR for HD, like a lot of other members here, because it works better than anything else in that role. Coincidentally, that happens to be why SWAT teams and DA military units do as well. I don't choose an AR because SWAT teams or SEALs do, but I choose one for the same reasons they do:

 

Superior terminal ballistics

Less over penetration through construction materials

Reliable

Accurate

Low recoil

High rate of accurate fire

Ergonomic

High round capacity

Fast to reload

Simple manual of Arms

 

Two hands on the gun isn't "Basic" it is standard for modern pistol techniques, and for reason - it works. Two hands on the gun means faster and more accurate fire - always. Are there times when you will have only one hand on the weapon, be it pistol or long gun? Sure - opening a door, carrying a child, using the phone, hitting a light switch, etc... But your whole fighting system shouldn't be based on it.

 

I have trained myself (I am actually not bad either ;))and dozens of others to shoot with only one hand, both weak and strong side on pistols, shotguns, and rifles. This includes malfunction reduction and reloads on all three platforms. I have also trained them in the "Why" and "When" (Two critical pieces of information that you seem to be lacking here) of shooting with one hand in addition to the "How".

 

However, I - like most people - am much better (faster and more accurate) with 2 hands on the gun than I am shooting one handed. I would put money on it that you are too. So Why oh WHY, on Gods Green Earth, would you intentionally handicap yourself by taking your most effective weapon, a firearm, and using it in a manner that you know is less capable in order to bring a knife to a gunfight regardless of the distances you are expecting to engage in? It doesn't make sense. You are setting yourself up for failure,

 

 

It sounds like you have had some basic firearms training...But the dangourous thing is that you don't know what you don't know...This is what makes your advise dangourous, especially when you come acrross like you have some special credentials...The fact that you aren't aware nor have trained with 1 hand shooting applications is telling...The fact that you can't differentiate between HD tactical teqniques and SWAT-Team techniques is also telling...And then your overlay of arrogance takes the cake.

 

Advocating the use of a pistol in one hand and a machete in the other for HD? Seriously? And I am the dangerous one? :rofl:

 

The HD/SWAT analogy I covered earlier and it stands here too.

 

Oh, and it's not arrogance. It is calling the bull$hit that you posted bull$shit. I have considerably more than "some basic firearms training" and the grounds for recognizing said bull$hit is based on experience, training, education, the mentorship of some really smart dudes, and real world application.

 

 

... Snip... I do not concure with the argument that "cause the swat team uses an ar it is the best choice" which High-Exposure made...And that is what he stated ...snip... And for High Exposure not to acknoeledge that SG &/or 45 is a viable approach is ludicrous at best - norrow minded at worst.

The rest of this post is already covered, but I wanted to address this last bit that is quoted above.

 

What happened was you said:

pump shotgun with a 45 auto (1911 is my favorite) as back-up...I shot-stoppers - best CQB tools ever devised

And then went on to justify that statement by rationalizing it by comparing modern HD tactics against Doughboys in WWI fights in trenches!

Then followed that with:

but the fastest way to put the bad guy down - especially at CQ-range is 00 and 45 acp, IMHO

I never said a shotgun and a .45 were not viable options. I also never stated that an AR was the best choice because a SWAT team uses it.

 

If a shotgun or a pistol are all you have, you could be worse off. They will work better than a sharp stick and a black heart. I just said if you have a choice, they aren't the best tools for the job if. I also stated that your rationale for your choice was out of touch with reality and that the idea of "1 shot-stoppers" was a dangerous mindset to have while training/preparing for a gunfight. I explained why I thought so on each count and I stand by those statements.

 

Then you said this:

BTW, contrary to poular belief, a SG may not be better then a pistol (45 acp preferred)...

and this:

A 45 acp in your strong hand and Kabar big-brother knife (ie a machette) in your week hand may be the best approch for room clearing...On the other hand if the purp is charging a defensive position -> 00/SG! -These are the three best tools IMHO.

and I threw the Bull$hit flag.

 

Combat Auto, It isn't personal. Think of me as the guy who says you have something nasty in your teeth at a party in front of some friends. Sure, it may rude of me to say it, and you may get pissed that I pointed out a fault, but at least now you know. And that means that you can get the spinach off your teeth so no one else laughs at you when you walk away.

 

This is a very active forum, with a good reputation that is well moderated and generally has a low noise to signal ratio. People come here to learn. They make decisions on life saving equipment and tactics based on advice people give them. As a poster/member here you have a responsibility to shut up when you don't know what you are talking about or give good solid advice that is grounded in common sense, proper law, personal experience, technical know-how, and good tactics that won't get someone killed or thrown in jail.

 

Anyway, like, Sgt Toadette stated. This may all actually be a moot point. If you don't have to clear your house, don't. Excellent advice! I have a little one, his room is down the hall from mine. Something goes bump in the night, I am moving to his location to secure him while the wife calls 911. I am not clearing the whole house. If the wife or kid are someplace other than the bedrooms when something happens, then the house gets cleared until I find them and make them safe.

 

While I am prepared to do it, I will not go hunting bad guys in my house if I can account for all of my loved ones at my location.

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Nobody's considering what weapon selection is going to give you the best shot of prevailing in front of a jury should you survive the encounter and the home invader be shot.  In this state, that is a huge consideration.  The more "tacticool" your tool looks, the less slack a judge and a juror in this state is likely to give you.  Hence the appeal of a wood stocked shotgun or an ordinary handgun, and the peril of using an AR (which the prosecutor will call an "assault weapon") and looking like some sort of Rambo character when you are being indicted, arraigned, facing a preliminary hearing or put on trial or seeking an appeal of your conviction.  Since it is a factor, this consideration ought to be weighed in making your decision.

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Carl, you will most definitely not be blinded by any muzzle flash. I do a lot of shooting in the dark, both with and without night vision and I have never been blinded, even for an instant. Additionally, your body does some amazing stuff when under extreme stress to protect itsself. One of those things is called auditory exclusion, where you don't even recognize loud noises as gunshots and have no after effects or ringing post incident. Most people (I know I did) experience this when involved in a critical incident.

 

If it is still a concern, invest in some electronic/active hearing pro that will protect your hearing but still enable you to hear what is going on. Some are even so good that they will actually enhance your hearing a bit.

 

Now, Combat Auto, let's chat... :)

 

 

 

Brother, you are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

1) Yes anyone can use whatever they want for HD. If you want to use a whiffle ball bat or harsh language that is your choice as only you and yours will be affected by your decisions. However, there are tools that are more effective than others, for example, a pistol is better than a bat, a long gun is better than a pistol. This is indisputable.

 

2) If you bothered to read what I actually wrote, you would see that I also use a 5.56 platform for my chosen HD weapon. Regardless of body armor, it will work. It will also be more effective as far as terminal ballistics and the end result on the bad guy, as well as pose less of a danger of over-penetration through typical household construction materials. I have tested this last part personally using a 12g with 18" barrel shooting slugs and 00B, a 16" AR with .223 64gr Soft Nose (Fed TRU) an MP5 with 9mm hollow points and ball and pistols in .40 and .45 with hollow nose and ball ammo. The 5.56 soft nose had the least over penetrating issues (note not zero just least) with the 12g foster type slug and MP5 with ball ammo having the most.

 

3) Oh, you watched a Magpul DVD. Why didn't you say so? :rofl: CA, Watching a DVD does not a subject matter expert make. Your caveat of "house layout" and "tactical approach" doesn't matter. There are ways to clear small rooms and confined spaces such as closets, crawlspaces and half baths with a long gun that are very effective. Why clear a whole house with a pistol because you have one or two small rooms that may be difficult to check with a long gun?

 

4) Heads up - Sacred cow about to be slain! Sorry CA. The .45 ACP is not a proven stopper. Nothing that you can hold in your two hands will absolutely drop somebody where you want them dropped. Using a shotgun or rifle caliber definitely increases your chances, but still does not assure immediate incapacitation. Accurate, fast, multiple shot placement (with an appropriate "fighting" caliber) to a critical area of the body is the only proven stopper. That's it. And when using pistol rounds, even that is not guaranteed. I have seen after action reports and talked to Officers that have had .45 and 9mm bouncing off of skulls, 17 rounds of .45 ACP, with numerous good center mass and face hits, and the perp lived. I have seen 00B to the midsection where the guy still fought for quite a bit before going unconscious and being brought to the ER (he lived), 11 rounds of 5.56 after a pursuit and the perp lived, and a suicide attempt where 00B to the head didn't kill the kid.

 

Trust your tactics and marksmanship to end a fight, not your caliber (Assuming you are using aservice caliber)

 

5) You are right, sticking your gun out into space that you can not visually clear is a recipe for disaster. There are techniques that minimize this problem, and none of them require you to shoot from the hip, shoot one handed, or choose a "pistol and knife super death-blossom combo" over a long gun for an entire operation. They do require a little attention to detail, some practice in weapon retention techniques (for example: You may need to bring a pistol to the "speed rock" position for a split second as you move through a fatal funnel, or take a knee to automatically make a bad guy holding your muzzle aim said muzzle at his own belly for you), or as Vlad said, put a sling on your long gun.

 

6) I initially didn't bring up CAG/SWAT/SEAL 6 as a tactics issue, I brought it up as a gear one. Again, if 00B and .45ACP are such death dealers, why aren't all the special units out there that are tasked with Direct Action/CQB/FISHing carrying nothing but shotguns and 1911s? Why has the shotgun been mostly relegated to a less lethal and breaching platform in modern urban/CQC/CQB operations? Maybe because we have learned a thing or two about physiology, terminal ballistics, gunfighting, and tactics over the last few years of conflicts and war and realized that there are better tools for the job of Fighting In Someone's House.

 

But since you brought it up... How does my analogy of SWAT/CAG/SEALs not apply to HD when that type of fighting is squarely in their wheelhouse. They are quite literally the "Pros from Dover" when speaking about the kinds of TTPs you will need for HD, but, "Trench Warfare" from 100 years ago :rolleyes: makes the cut in your mind for relevancy?

 

Let me clue you in on another fact: HD is tactical. The same Tactics Techniques and Procedures (TTPs) used by a SWAT team/CAG/SEAL 6, etc... moving through a building are the same TTPs that will let you come out on top in the event of a home invasion or HD scenario. These TTPs are proven time and time again and they work. If they didn't they would be replaced.

 

Yes, there are some different tactics when conducting CQB/CQC with a team vs. alone or in pairs. But, most of the stuff done by an individual member of that team when clearing a structure translates directly to what needs to get done in an 'all by yourself' HD situation. None of the relevant TTPs involve bringing inferior weapons or less capable platforms to the fight. Ever.

 

Bottom line here - The basics of shooting a bad guy before he shoots you are the same regardless if you are wearing camouflage, navy blue and black, or your pajamas - Get the most effective weapon system you have in your hands and use it in the most efficient manner possible. Period.

 

If you knew anything at all about actually fighting with a firearm or the basics of tactical movement from real world training under the eye of a reputable instructor, you would know this.

 

Also, referencing your "stick your eye in a scope" comment, Vlad covered it already but I want to reiterate. That is not how a RDS is used. Both eyes remain open and situational awareness is maintained. In fact, using an RDS is less intrusive into your vision and more intuitive than iron sights and is much faster without reducing your field of vision - one - single - degree. Barring some kind of eye issues, this is true for anyone using an RDS. As Vlad also said, Your statement shows how little you actually know about what you are talking about.

 

As far as my background and experience, I am a municipal Police Officer that is in charge of all firearms and tactical training for my agency as well as a team leader on a regional SWAT team where I am also the head firearms trainer. I have a fairly solid grasp of CQB/CQC. I attend and conduct high level training regularly, often with members of special units in the Military, Law Enforcement, and Fed Gov't. I have performed real world hostage rescue, active shooter response, CQB/CQC and I have been shot at but never hit. ;)

 

 

 

 

:facepalm:

 

You completely missed the points I was making in my earlier comments (including my sense of humor). Alowerlevel, Sgt Toadette and Vlad picked them up just fine though.

 

It has nothing to do with a "cookie cutter" approach to tactics or gear. I choose an AR for HD, like a lot of other members here, because it works better than anything else in that role. Coincidentally, that happens to be why SWAT teams and DA military units do as well. I don't choose an AR because SWAT teams or SEALs do, but I choose one for the same reasons they do:

 

Superior terminal ballistics

Less over penetration through construction materials

Reliable

Accurate

Low recoil

High rate of accurate fire

Ergonomic

High round capacity

Fast to reload

Simple manual of Arms

 

Two hands on the gun isn't "Basic" it is standard for modern pistol techniques, and for reason - it works. Two hands on the gun means faster and more accurate fire - always. Are there times when you will have only one hand on the weapon, be it pistol or long gun? Sure - opening a door, carrying a child, using the phone, hitting a light switch, etc... But your whole fighting system shouldn't be based on it.

 

I have trained myself (I am actually not bad either ;))and dozens of others to shoot with only one hand, both weak and strong side on pistols, shotguns, and rifles. This includes malfunction reduction and reloads on all three platforms. I have also trained them in the "Why" and "When" (Two critical pieces of information that you seem to be lacking here) of shooting with one hand in addition to the "How".

 

However, I - like most people - am much better (faster and more accurate) with 2 hands on the gun than I am shooting one handed. I would put money on it that you are too. So Why oh WHY, on Gods Green Earth, would you intentionally handicap yourself by taking your most effective weapon, a firearm, and using it in a manner that you know is less capable in order to bring a knife to a gunfight regardless of the distances you are expecting to engage in? It doesn't make sense. You are setting yourself up for failure,

 

 

 

 

Advocating the use of a pistol in one hand and a machete in the other for HD? Seriously? And I am the dangerous one? :rofl:

 

The HD/SWAT analogy I covered earlier and it stands here too.

 

Oh, and it's not arrogance. It is calling the bull$hit that you posted bull$shit. I have considerably more than "some basic firearms training" and the grounds for recognizing said bull$hit is based on experience, training, education, the mentorship of some really smart dudes, and real world application.

 

 

 

The rest of this post is already covered, but I wanted to address this last bit that is quoted above.

 

What happened was you said:

And then went on to justify that statement by rationalizing it by comparing HD against Doughboys in WWI fights in trenches! Then followed that with:

 

 

I never said a shotgun and a .45 were not viable options. I also never stated that an AR was the best choice because a SWAT team uses it.

 

If a shotgun or a pistol are all you have, you could be worse off. They will work better than a sharp stick and a black heart. I just said if you have a choice, they aren't the best tools for the job if. I also stated that your rationale for your choice was out of touch with reality and that the idea of "1 shot-stoppers" was a dangerous mindset to have while training/preparing for a gunfight. I explained why I thought so on each count and I stand by those statements.

 

Then you said this:

and this:

 

and I threw the Bull$hit flag.

 

Combat Auto, It isn't personal. Think of me as the guy who says you have something nasty in your teeth at a party in front of some friends. Sure, it may rude of me to say it, and you may get pissed that I pointed out a fault, but at least now you know. And that means that you can get the spinach off your teeth so no one else laughs at you when you walk away.

 

This is a very active forum, with a good reputation that is well moderated and generally has a low noise to signal ratio. People come here to learn. They make decisions on life saving equipment and tactics based on advice people give them. As a poster/member here you have a responsibility to shut up when you don't know what you are talking about or give good solid advice that is grounded in common sense, proper law, personal experience, technical know-how, and good tactics that won't get someone killed or thrown in jail.

 

Anyway, like, Sgt Toadette stated. This may all actually be a moot point. If you don't have to clear your house, don't. Excellent advice! I have a little one, his room is down the hall from mine. Something goes bump in the night, I am moving to his location to secure him while the wife calls 911. I am not clearing the whole house. If the wife or kid are someplace other than the bedrooms when something happens, then the house gets cleared until I find them and make them safe.

 

While I am prepared to do it, I will not go hunting bad guys in my house if I can account for all of my loved ones at my location.

HE, well cudoes to you for spending a chuck of time posting this...

 

I only "attacked" you because you attacked "me" first - I am sure you would acknowledge that.

 

It is obvious you have credentials, that we all here may make use of; it is unfortunate that your arrogance and continued attacks above will detract from that...For example, making fun of the fact that I watched a Training-DVD. - High Exposure - Really? - how old are you, 10?

 

I will leave you with this last advise:

1) Your police training is fine and all good, but most of your comments are obvious, bloviating, overstatements (eg 45 acp isn't a guranteed to stop 1 shot. -We all know this)...

2) Approaching room clearing with a team vs an individual are 2 exteemly different things - I don't have to go to the Police Acadamy to realize that.

 

I think your arrogance far outwieghs your ability to give practical advise to a "civiian".

 

Sad really.

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HE, well cudoes to you for spending a chuck of time posting this...

 

I only "attacked" you because you attacked "me" first - I am sure you would acknowledge that.

 

It is obvious you have credentials, that we all here may make use of; it is unfortunate that your arrogance and continued attacks above will detract from that...For example, making fun of the fact that I watched a Training-DVD. - High Exposure - Really? - how old are you, 10?

 

I will leave you with this last advise:

1) Your police training is fine and all good, but most of your comments are obvious, bloviating, overstatements (eg 45 acp isn't a guranteed to stop 1 shot. -We all know this)...

2) Approaching room clearing with a team vs an individual are 2 exteemly different things - I don't have to go to the Police Acadamy to realize that.

 

I think your arrogance far outwieghs your ability to give practical advise to a "civiian".

 

Sad really.

Wow, how ironic - just found this post from "Old Dog" to of all people "High-Exposure" in the "What Optics do you use" thread - right next door...Maybe High-E will now get the picture - different strokes for different folks - and open up his "field of vision" to many ways to approch a problem not just HE's :-)...BTW, OldDog if you are reading - on this Memorial Day - Thanks for Your Service!!! (From a fellow Veterean - we both made it back!).

 

OLD Dogs Post to High Exposure:

Well I shot a few VC that ran into our hootch in Nam with a plain old pump Rem 870 shotgun with a bead sight. It was like a house with one big room. Got a medal for that one. Cleared many huts and buildings and a few spider holes with that shottie. Used the 1911 mostly for the tunnels. Most times my M16 was being shot in extreme anger and/or fear. I also shot action shotgun matches and Sporting Clays for about 8 years and much prefer it over shooting at things that shoot back with automatic weapons. Heck, even my retired LEO friends never shot their guns in anger. I think I have more experience in using a shotgun at HD distances against people who shoot back than most people I have run into. How about you? Just training or have you seen the devil? Big differene between the two. One thing I learned is that most people's mental image of how they will react to being shot at never involves soiled pants, extreme fear and an uncontrollable urge to run away and yet I saw it happen all the time. Training never duplicates the physical stress of life and death so it only takes you so far. A lot of things sound good and logical in training but the real useful stuff I learned in the field.

 

I hope that I answered your question about my qualifications to support my opinion.         

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Wow, how ironic - just found this post from "Old Dog" to of all people "High-Exposure" in the "What Optics do you use" thread - right next door...Maybe High-E will now get the picture - different strokes for different folks - and open up his "field of vision" to many ways to approch a problem not just HE's :-)...BTW, OldDog if you are reading - on this Memorial Day - Thanks for Your Service!!! (From a fellow Veterean - we both made it back!).

 

OLD Dogs Post to High Exposure:

Well I shot a few VC that ran into our hootch in Nam with a plain old pump Rem 870 shotgun with a bead sight. It was like a house with one big room. Got a medal for that one. Cleared many huts and buildings and a few spider holes with that shottie. Used the 1911 mostly for the tunnels. Most times my M16 was being shot in extreme anger and/or fear. I also shot action shotgun matches and Sporting Clays for about 8 years and much prefer it over shooting at things that shoot back with automatic weapons. Heck, even my retired LEO friends never shot their guns in anger. I think I have more experience in using a shotgun at HD distances against people who shoot back than most people I have run into. How about you? Just training or have you seen the devil? Big differene between the two. One thing I learned is that most people's mental image of how they will react to being shot at never involves soiled pants, extreme fear and an uncontrollable urge to run away and yet I saw it happen all the time. Training never duplicates the physical stress of life and death so it only takes you so far. A lot of things sound good and logical in training but the real useful stuff I learned in the field.

 

I hope that I answered your question about my qualifications to support my opinion.

You are really missing the point...

 

You can use a pointy stick to defend yourself... It does not mean its the best...

 

12 ga and 45 both have huge over penetration potential... Due to the mass of the projectile... 556 negates that because its so light... That in itself makes it safer...

 

Semi auto can be shot with one hand... A pump can't... Which makes a semi auto a better choice...

 

A long gun is more stable because it is shoulder fired... A more stable gun makes follow up shots faster... An ar15 has very minimal recoil which makes staying on target easier....

 

I'm telling you in fact why I feel an ar15 is better... I am not guessing... Not speculating.... Just telling you... I'm sure that someone has defended themselves with a 22... It doesn't make it a good choice...

 

You like a shotgun? Good call... Go for it... I just disagree..

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You are really missing the point...

 

You can use a pointy stick to defend yourself... It does not mean its the best...

 

12 ga and 45 both have huge over penetration potential... Due to the mass of the projectile... 556 negates that because its so light... That in itself makes it safer...

 

Semi auto can be shot with one hand... A pump can't... Which makes a semi auto a better choice...

 

A long gun is more stable because it is shoulder fired... A more stable gun makes follow up shots faster... An ar15 has very minimal recoil which makes staying on target easier....

 

I'm telling you in fact why I feel an ar15 is better... I am not guessing... Not speculating.... Just telling you... I'm sure that someone has defended themselves with a 22... It doesn't make it a good choice...

 

You like a shotgun? Good call... Go for it... I just disagree..

Vlad, Vlad, Vlad, Different stokes...I never said SG is (BEST) I said one of the best...I think a valid argument could be made for either one...My beef is with the "absolutists" - if you don't use weaopne XYZ - you are putting lives at risk - and all such bloviating that comes with that kind of thinking.

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The "blade" idea and the trench warfare comparison of the tight spaces of a home got me thinking. Trench knife! His idea was far from crazy and indeed was very popular in the real combat situation, check out wikipedia for trench knife. Sargent York make good use of a handgun in a tight situation but not everyone might know of that old story, point is dont dismiss all ideas, live and learn, especially from the past. Thank you combat auto!

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Vlad, Vlad, Vlad, Different stokes...I never said SG is (BEST) I said one of the best...I think a valid argument could be made for either one...My beef is with the "absolutists" - if you don't use weaopne XYZ - you are putting lives at risk - and all such bloviating that comes with that kind of thinking.

If

gun A has the capacity to create 18in of penetration post interior wall...

And

gun B has the capacity to create only 7in of penetration post interior wall

And

both A and B can create the 12+ in min of penetration that is acceptable

 

If all that is true... Than IMO selecting a gun that runs the risk of killing beyond an interior wall is a bad choice in a residential setting...

 

I am not saying "ar 15 is the best cause I say so" I'm trying to explain to you why I and many others go that direction...

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