Open Carrying a Gun in Philadelphia

[darrenlobo 0]

At the End the Fed (Federal Reserve System) Rally of Saturday, May 18, 2013 Edd Skitz, a local liberty activist, open carried a handgun in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

 

http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2013/05/open-carrying-gun-in-philadelphia.html

 

[H.M. Murdock 0]

Thousands do it every day

 

What's the issue -- that he was stopped for it?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Thousands do it every day

 

What's the issue -- that he was stopped for it?

 

 

in Philly a license is required to carry a gun period.. even openly... 

right or wrong.. the police may argue that since a license is required.. they are just checking to make sure he can  legally do that... 

I do not agree with that mindset... but that is likely how the operate... at least the officer treated him in a respectful polite way.. some interactions in philly in the past were not so good.. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

To many people out there trying to prove something, both sides... this just goes to show that both sides can easily get along. The only question is at what point does it become burdensome.. Some might say once is enough. if i could carry in NJ i wouldn't mind being asked for ID, i would probably get one of those ID sleeves that i could just whip out, kinda like you use for car insurance. When enough people start producing ID's the police will just realize its becoming more of  burden on them. The option to conceal carry is there too, where you shouldn't be asked because no one should even see it.

[Soju 153]

What do you mean?

[H.M. Murdock 0]

in Philly a license is required to carry a gun period.. even openly... 

right or wrong.. the police may argue that since a license is required.. they are just checking to make sure he can  legally do that... 

I do not agree with that mindset... but that is likely how the operate... at least the officer treated him in a respectful polite way.. some interactions in philly in the past were not so good.. 

 

Understood -- I carry in Philly myself (concealed though)

 

But I didn't think that simply carrying a firearm in PA is enough to be required to present a DL or LTCF.  I know in some other states it's definitely not enough and there's case law to back it up (OR comes to mind)

[vladtepes 1,060]

Understood -- I carry in Philly myself (concealed though)

 

But I didn't think that simply carrying a firearm in PA is enough to be required to present a DL or LTCF.  I know in some other states it's definitely not enough and there's case law to back it up (OR comes to mind)

 

Philly really doesn't get it right often... they dont like people to carry..so there is a lot of tension already there... and I am sure that is why the "check"..

[NJKen 23]

Whats wrong with checking to make sure youre following the law?  That didnt seem out of line to me.  It was a simple "do you have a permit, why yes I do" type of encounter?  Why make it an us vs them kind of thing?  The cops are not against anyone in general.  Or at least they are not suposed to be.  I know some officers have their own agenda they follow but that seems to be the exception, not the rule.  This is comming from someone that has had 2 encounters with the NJSP while shooting legally at a farm in millstone NJ.  Both times we were treated with respect and left alone.

Ken

[H.M. Murdock 0]

Whats wrong with checking to make sure youre following the law?  That didnt seem out of line to me.  It was a simple "do you have a permit, why yes I do" type of encounter?  Why make it an us vs them kind of thing?  The cops are not against anyone in general.  Or at least they are not suposed to be.  I know some officers have their own agenda they follow but that seems to be the exception, not the rule.  This is comming from someone that has had 2 encounters with the NJSP while shooting legally at a farm in millstone NJ.  Both times we were treated with respect and left alone.

Ken

 

The issue (to me) is that it may not be lawful for them to do so.

 

I'm not seeing this us vs. them thing.  Just lawful vs unlawful.  I infer from your first sentence that we both agree that no one should be operating above the law

 

For all I know it is legal for them to stop you to check your LTCF.  So be it!  But if it unlawful for them to do so then I'd expect them to follow the law

 

I'm sure someone familiar with PA law will chime in.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

According to this post on the PA forum there is case law (looking for that now) supporting the idea that you need to produce a license in Philly if asked, even if you're not suspected of committing a crime:

 

--

Technically, you are not even required to produce a LTCF in Philadelphia, since carry in Philly is legal with a LTCF. In order for an officer to have a lawful basis to demand to see your LTCF he would have to have specific facts on which to suspect that you not only have a gun (which can be perfectly legal) but also that you are committing or are about to commit a crime. Just seeing a gun isn't enough.

However, in Philadelphia I don't think I'd care to push the issue too far.

Bold by me. This is incorrect. Technically you do have to produce a permit in Philadelphia if carrying and you are simply asked. There is case law to support this.

--

 

cite: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-145/215171-q-pa-state-police-allowed-ask-pa-ltcf-page-2.html#post2365916

[H.M. Murdock 0]

The case law is Commonwealth v Robinson and Commonwealth v Stevenson

 

But there were narrow conditions in the latter.  No idea about the former

 

Interesting reading:

 

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/27036-philly-police-ltcf-check.html#post350182

 

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/27036-philly-police-ltcf-check-page-2.html#post350277

[NJKen 23]

I understand your point HM Murdock.  I am unsure of that myself.  In fact, I would bet a lot of the local LEO's may not know exactly either.  The last part of that is my point.  Considering the exchange that took place I would not call out the officer for being out of line or violating anyone's 2nd amendment rites.  I dont think that you are either.  I think we are fighting the same fight with slightly different points of view!

The way the individual was questioned did not involve any kind of detention, search, or confiscation.  That there is as good as it gets these days regardless of being a question of legal or not.

Just my $.02

K3n

[ryan_j 0]

I have a feeling that this will be decided in the SCOTUS since the 4th circuit just ruled that open carry by itself is not probable cause to detain someone.

 

http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-law-updates/784-fourth-circuit-finds-that-carrying-a-firearm-in-an-open-carry-state-does-not-create-reasonable-suspicion-and-provides-thorough-analysis-of-the-free-to-leave-standard-of-seizure

[Soju 153]

Though this deals with open carry as opposed to conceal carry, this is what was written in a US Supreme Court decision in the past.

 

 

If the Fourth Amendment was designed to protect against anything, it was designed to protect against the “general warrant,” which freed the holder of the warrant from the limitations of the common law...This kind of nonincriminatory allegation, in my view, would not be enough to justify the kind of investigatory stop that took place here.   It would mean, in states that permit carrying concealed weapons, that the police no longer need any reason to stop citizens on the street to search them. 

[Carcano 14]

Why carry open when at 18 you can get a Maine CCW and carry concealed in PA?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Why carry open when at 18 you can get a Maine CCW and carry concealed in PA?

 

generally speaking.. people do it to prove a point..

 

I live in a fairly rural area.. and open carry at times because it is more comfortable depending on what I am wearing.. 

[Soju 153]

Why carry open when at 18 you can get a Maine CCW and carry concealed in PA?

 

Because it is free and doesn't require any application process, paperwork, or extra time and effort. 

 

That said I have a Maine and NH license and conceal anyways.

[Carcano 14]

Because it is free and doesn't require any application process, paperwork, or extra time and effort. 

 

That said I have a Maine and NH license and conceal anyways.

 

Your right, it's free and I've open carried a .357 I inherited when in PA before. Did this on my 18th birthday and nobody stopped me or gave me any weird looks, I was shocked how open most people are to seeing someone with pistol.

[Carcano 14]

generally speaking.. people do it to prove a point..

 

I live in a fairly rural area.. and open carry at times because it is more comfortable depending on what I am wearing.. 

 

No problem with that, it's legal and people have the right to do so.

 

I still like the idea of open carry and ccw, and it seems people think twice before commiting a robbery or such in free states.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I was shocked how open most people are to seeing someone with pistol.

 

 

I had a Glock 22 and a 22 round magazine on my belt in a Serpa when I stopped to get groceries today on the way home from the range... no one cared.. 

[Carcano 14]

I had a Glock 22 and a 22 round magazine on my belt in a Serpa when I stopped to get groceries today on the way home from the range... no one cared.. 

 

That's how I felt, everyone was just so chilled out about it I was expecting to hear "F***! He has a gun! Call the cops!".

 

First time I had to interact with people in public I was scared shitless someone was going to take it the wrong way but after a few hours I got the hint most people in PA are freedom loving Americans and have no issue seeing someone carrying.

 

Wish NJ was like that, I'm planning on making the move to PA, DE, or ME in a year or so and I can't wait to experience the REAL America and get some neat range toys.

[vladtepes 1,060]

That's how I felt, everyone was just so chilled out about it I was expecting to hear "F***! He has a gun! Call the cops!".

 

First time I had to interact with people in public I was scared shitless someone was going to take it the wrong way but after a few hours I got the hint most people in PA are freedom loving Americans and have no issue seeing someone carrying.

 

Wish NJ was like that, I'm planning on making the move to PA, DE, or ME in a year or so and I can't wait to experience the REAL America and get some neat range toys.

 

even simpler than all that.. I think it is just human nature.. you grow up knowing guns.. guns are normal to you.. you understand some random guy with a holstered gun is not a threat.. 

in NJ guns are treated totally differently.. so people see a gun and freak out.. 

[Carcano 14]

even simpler than all that.. I think it is just human nature.. you grow up knowing guns.. guns are normal to you.. you understand some random guy with a holstered gun is not a threat.. 

in NJ guns are treated totally differently.. so people see a gun and freak out.. 

 

Agreed, people grew up as kids seeing guns and know guns aren't "bad".

 

After seeing people carry I started seeing it as being the same as someone with a tool belt and a hammer, a handgun/shotgun/rifle is just a "tool".

[ryan_j 0]

To many people out there trying to prove something, both sides... this just goes to show that both sides can easily get along. The only question is at what point does it become burdensome.. Some might say once is enough. if i could carry in NJ i wouldn't mind being asked for ID, i would probably get one of those ID sleeves that i could just whip out, kinda like you use for car insurance. When enough people start producing ID's the police will just realize its becoming more of  burden on them. The option to conceal carry is there too, where you shouldn't be asked because no one should even see it.

 

I am really opposed to submitting to an ID check each and every time. You know why? Because they simply won't just look at your ID and let you go. In a lot of these videos they call in the permit to check it out and it wastes your time. Once in a while wouldn't be a big deal but if I'm stopped every time and have to endure a 10 minute ID check it's going to be frustrating. If it's legal I want to be left alone.

 

I know what people will say, "just carry concealed." Well what if we only get to carry openly? That just might happen in NJ. Long shot, sure, but it could happen that a court could rule that NJ has to allow open carry and not necessarily concealed. So in order to exercise our right in the only way we are allowed, we have to submit to harrassment every time? I don't like this.

[ryan_j 0]

Why carry open when at 18 you can get a Maine CCW and carry concealed in PA?

 

One other reason others may not have mentioned is that your license to carry in PA may be revoked for some reason that doesn't involve a felony charge. Or you may be denied one for something minor in your past such as a drug possession charge. Not hard drugs, but pot, like many have experimented with when they were younger.

 

So the only option left after that apart from not carrying is open carry.