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scotty456

Help with obtaining Firearms permit (FID?) - stalled by PD?

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Hi,

 

I'm hoping someone on here might be able to assist me.  I'm a 32 yr old employed individual located in Northern NJ that is trying to obtain a firearms permit and a pistol permit so that I can legally purchase and own a handgun in NJ.  I submitted all the paperwork to my local police department, waited the required time posted on their website with no response, and then followed up with them only to find out that by truthfully answering question #26 on the form (mental health treatment), I've put myself in a bind.  

 

The detective lieutenant I spoke with told me that in order to proceed I needed to get a letter from a doctor/physician/psychiatrist that indicated what I was being treated for, what medications (if any) I was being prescribed, and that in the doctor's opinion I would pose no threat to myself or others if I was granted a firearms permit.  I wrote a letter to my personal physician requesting this (and actually just dropped it off earlier), but am not sure if he would feel comfortable providing this letter.  

 

Honestly, if the situation was reversed, I would probably not feel comfortable writing this letter for anyone because it seems to make the doctor liable for my actions indefinitely.  It almost seems like this sort of letter is unobtainable, making it therefore impossible for me to proceed.  However, in doing some research and talking to some people, I've been told that there are some doctors in NJ that will write such letters (after a thorough examination of course) - I'm not trying to doctor shop really - I'm perfectly willing to submit to a thorough examination to prove that I won't pose any danger if issued a firearms permit.  

 

Does anyone know of any physicians/doctors/psychiatrists in NJ that would be able to assist me?  I'm located in North NJ about 30 minutes from NYC, but am willing to travel for an appointment (although would prefer not to go out-of-state since this might then appear as if I'm trying to "circumvent" the police department's requirement).  

 

Also, just an FYI about my mental health condition that caused me to tick the YES box for question 26 - I've been diagnosed with very mild OCD and general anxiety disorder.  I'm being treated for the disorder with very low doses of medicine, but neither of these diagnoses (nor the medicine) should have any impact on my general ability to safely own and operate a firearm.  Honestly, I could most likely function perfectly normally without the medicine, but since it does help I never saw any reason not to take advantage of it to make my life somewhat easier.  I have never been hospitalized or committed for this or any other reason, I voluntarily sought out this treatment and am being treated solely on a voluntary basis, and have never been involved in any sort of situation with law enforcement such as being arrested, detained, convicted, etc. (except for the occasional speeding and parking tickets).  As a result, I feel that I should still qualify to own a firearm under NJ state law, although if I'm wrong about this please feel free to let me know.  

 

Otherwise, if anyone knows of any doctors that might be able to assist, or anything else I might/should try, please feel free to respond and let me know!  Thanks so much!

 

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Man that's a tough one. You could try to get the doctor to write out only factual information as of your condition and meds. Try to stay away from any personal opinions.

 

Other than that I'd contact an attorney to find out the legality of the PD's inquiry and best way to proceed

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It's not an unusual request. You should contact a 2a friendly attorney who will guide you through the process including seeing a psychologist. In the end, it will cost you time and money.

 

A friend of mine explained this to me when I asked him why he had to hire a lawyer to get his permits.

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Has your GP refused to write the letter, or are you just assuming he won't? I suspect the prescribing physician will have no problem supplying a letter that states they have no reason to believe you are a threat to yourself or others. If they believed that you were they would be obligated to commit you. They cannot speak to what they do not know, however they can (and should have no problem) stating that they are not treating you for any condition that would make you unfit to own a firearm (assuming that this is true). .

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Has your GP refused to write the letter, or are you just assuming he won't? I suspect the prescribing physician will have no problem supplying a letter that states they have no reason to believe you are a threat to yourself or others. If they believed that you were they would be obligated to commit you. They cannot speak to what they do not know, however they can (and should have no problem) stating that they are not treating you for any condition that would make you unfit to own a firearm (assuming that this is true). .

In my mind If you "pose a threat" you shouldn't be allowed to drive (aka 2 ton weapon of mass destruction) or operate a meat slicer or a boat or construction equipment, etc... You can kill a lot people without ever touching a trigger. So if your Dr is OK with you operating any of these then why not a gun ? I would frame it that way if he is one of those people that is afraid of guns. If he still doesn't get it then maybe it's time for a new Dr--perhaps someone that belongs to local range or club.

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Read NJ Statute 2c:58-3 specifically subsection C "Who may obtain".  As I read this it does not say that simply having a mental disorder is a denial but being confined for mental reasons.  To me being confined means inpatient, simply talking to a doc or shrink isnt being confined its being treated...   But in section C subsection 3 it says " To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him in the handling of firearms; to any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card;"

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can you explain your illness a bit more...

 

what are the real world effects?

 

do you get an attack and run off uncontrollable?

 

These are the questions you need to ask yourself, forget the law for a moment. just asking personally.

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So, I decided to shelve the plan to acquire a firearm for the time being (back in mid-2013). However, recently I have moved and now I am no longer in an apartment building (where there is a doorman, etc. between any potential robber/bad person and me) but rather in a townhouse where it is somewhat more likely that a firearm might be needed for self-defense. As a result, I've decided to once again go about trying to obtain one. 

I spoke with the detective lieutenant at the previous town I was living in and informed him I was moving and he agreed to simply "pend" the application for a while and not just outright deny it (since I wasn't going to be living there any longer and therefore a denial was in order - this way I wouldn't have to answer that I was previously denied on my new application in my current town - very nice of the detective lieutenant and I appreciate it). I then submitted a new application to my current town. With the application I submitted a letter explaining the situation from the previous town and how they had wanted a doctor's letter for question #26, etc. And of course, the new town wants the same doctor's letter. 

I know that it's possible I could have not submitted this at all and they might have possibly approved me in spite of question #26, but I weighed my options and thought that it was just as likely that they might just outright deny me due to question #26 and then I'd need to obtain a lawyer to appeal (and I've heard the appeals process is at least $3,000). I thought that if push comes to shove and I have to pay a lawyer $1,000 + a doctor, it would still be cheaper than having to appeal a denial. 

Anyway, before I go that route, I figured I'd take one last stab at it on here and see if anyone might be able to refer me to a doctor in NJ (or nearby, such as NYC, etc.) that might be willing to conduct a thorough examination on me and then, if he/she feels it's appropriate, write a letter stating that I pose no danger if I were to possess a firearm. Once more, I reiterate that I'm not trying to doctor shop, but that unfortunately I can understand that very few doctors would be willing to write such a letter considering the potential liability it could cause them, and therefore I am forced to resort to trying to get a referral from someone that might know such a doctor or have used such a doctor before. 

If anyone can offer any assistance, I greatly appreciate it. Feel free to post the information on here or to PM me if you find that a better way to communicate such information. Thanks once more!

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You didn't learn your lesson on this the first time I see. You screwed yourself by doing that. Especially with the post Newtown hysteria still in full swing by many PD's.

 

Lawyer up is now the correct answer.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "you screwed yourself by doing that" - if you are referring to how I answered question #26, then I disagree with you completely.  I am absolutely not going to answer a question falsely or lie on a question that I am submitting to a police department in this fashion.  I am posting with a very specific question - and that is if anyone can help me in locating a doctor, physician, or psychiatrist that might be willing to conduct an examination on me and then write an appropriate letter to the police department.  I respectfully request that if you do not have an answer to this question, then you simply do not respond to this thread instead of responding in the manner in which you did.  Thank you.

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Since you already checked yes on Question 26 and submitted the application you need a letter from your doctor. I would simply have your GP note what the medication was prescribed for (general anxiety disorder & OCD) and that you were treated in his/her office and not at a mental inpatient facility. That is what they're looking for.

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Since you already checked yes on Question 26 and submitted the application you need a letter from your doctor. I would simply have your GP note what the medication was prescribed for (general anxiety disorder & OCD) and that you were treated in his/her office and not at a mental inpatient facility. That is what they're looking for.

 

Except the GP didn't treat me - I was treated a while back by a psychiatrist that I no longer have any business (patient/doctor) relationship with.  My current GP might be willing to write such a letter - I'm not sure - but I get the impression that's not exactly what they are looking for.  I think they want a doctor to write a letter that specifically states that I pose no danger if I were to be granted a firearms permit and then purchase and possess a firearm.  Actually, I'm almost positive that's what they are looking for based on a voice mail message they left me recently after I submitted the new application.  

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Scotty,
I'm pretty sure what Respct2A meant was that you shouldn't have volunteered the info about your previous application being held up for the letter.

As it was, you could have (should have?) just applied and let them decide if they wanted any extra information and if so, what.

 

Spilled milk at this point. And they probably would have asked for the same thing anyway.

 

As a general rule though, answer only what's asked and never volunteer any extra info.

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Scotty,

I'm pretty sure what Respct2A meant was that you shouldn't have volunteered the info about your previous application being held up for the letter.

As it was, you could have (should have?) just applied and let them decide if they wanted any extra information and if so, what.

 

Spilled milk at this point. And they probably would have asked for the same thing anyway.

 

As a general rule though, answer only what's asked and never volunteer any extra info.

While I understand that providing add'l information can sometimes cause issues, I made a calculated decision in this case to do so.  My concern was that if I did nothing except provide what they asked for, including answering question #26 in the affirmative, then it was very possible they would simply deny my application outright and then I would have to spend thousands of dollars on an attorney to appeal the decision.  It was also possible, though much less likely they would just approve me and I wouldn't have to spend any money at all.  

 

However, by including the information about what the previous police department requested, I pretty much guaranteed they would request the same thing.  Therefore, if they were going to deny me outright with just a yes answer to question #26, I potentially saved myself a lot of money by including this extra information and thereby causing them to request the doctor's letter.  Of course, if they would have just approved me even with a yes answer to question #26, then I cost myself more money...but since I've read that a lot of NJ municipalities look for any excuse to deny firearms applications, I figured it was more likely they would deny me outright and therefore by including the extra information I believe I've caused them to allow me to submit such a letter to get approved, which is cheaper than having to hire an attorney for an appeals process.

 

I feel that even with an affirmative answer to question #26, a letter shouldn't necessarily be required and a denial shouldn't necessarily be the only action taken if no letter is provided - it is extremely unfair, but apparently that's how NJ seems to be running this process and so I had no real choice but to play by their rules...and now I'm just trying to see if there's any way I can locate a doctor to examine me and write such a letter without having to hire the attorney to refer me and thereby pay more...

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Don't say yes to that question unless you ALREADY have a doctor letter in hand and submit that letter to them WITH the application on day one.

 

Cops are not doctors. If you have a doctor letter then you are good to go and the cops cant really do anything to deny you on that basis.

 

Get the letter BEFORE YOU APPLY!!!!!!

 

Submit the letter WITH YOUR APPLICATION!!!!!

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

 

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Don't say yes to that question unless you ALREADY have a doctor letter in hand and submit that letter to them WITH the application on day one.

 

Cops are not doctors. If you have a doctor letter then you are good to go and the cops cant really do anything to deny you on that basis.

 

Get the letter BEFORE YOU APPLY!!!!!!

 

Submit the letter WITH YOUR APPLICATION!!!!!

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Too late unfortunately - already submitted the application...but I don't think the concern you have is really an issue, since my new town PD seems fine with letting me get the letter as well.

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Too late unfortunately - already submitted the application...but I don't think the concern you have is really an issue, since my new town PD seems fine with letting me get the letter as well.

 

True, now you just have to get the letter before the police decide they have waited long enough and deny the application and start the clock rolling for appeal.  Whereas, if you get the letter first, then you avoid the entire issue.

 

You might be able to get a reference to a good doctor by calling Evan Nappen - he ought to know the names of doctors who are reasonable when it comes to guns.

 

The doctor that initially prescribed the stuff to you might sign off.  He has a prior relationship with you, you aren't taking the stuff anymore so you are presumably better, if you schedule an appointment with him and spend 15 minutes speaking with him and letting him catch up on your current status, he might just write a letter and that would be it.  That would probably be the best route to take.  If he agrees you don't need to be on the stuff anymore, then how could he not agree to sign the letter?  He could sign the letter even if you were taking prescriptions, if he thought you were OK.

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True, now you just have to get the letter before the police decide they have waited long enough and deny the application and start the clock rolling for appeal.  Whereas, if you get the letter first, then you avoid the entire issue.

 

You might be able to get a reference to a good doctor by calling Evan Nappen - he ought to know the names of doctors who are reasonable when it comes to guns.

 

The doctor that initially prescribed the stuff to you might sign off.  He has a prior relationship with you, you aren't taking the stuff anymore so you are presumably better, if you schedule an appointment with him and spend 15 minutes speaking with him and letting him catch up on your current status, he might just write a letter and that would be it.  That would probably be the best route to take.  If he agrees you don't need to be on the stuff anymore, then how could he not agree to sign the letter?  He could sign the letter even if you were taking prescriptions, if he thought you were OK.

It was my experience, at least in the previous municipality, that the local PD tend to slow track these things no matter what, meaning I probably don't have like an urgent need to get the letter by tomorrow...but rather have at least a few weeks to procure one.  

 

I believe I tried calling Evan Nappen previously (I didn't keep that careful track unfortunately) and like the other few attorney's I contacted, he wanted to "take me on as a client" before providing me any information (which requires me basically paying him for the referral).

 

Unfortunately, the doc that I initially saw for my OCD/anxiety is not willing to right the letter either.  I'm not sure if it's because these doctors are just anti-gun, or for some other reason, but I doubt that it has anything to do with me.  Honestly, despite the fact that I'm not anti-gun, I still don't know if I'd feel comfortable as a doctor writing a letter stating that in my professional opinion it was OK for someone else to get a gun since it could seriously expose me to a lot of liability - that might very well be the reason these docs won't write the letter either.  

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Probably worth hiring Evan Nappen (or whichever lawyer you talked to) in the long run, at least if you really want to get the FPID.  There's nothing like hiring people who know what they are doing in order to make sure you get the best outcome.  What you need is a psychiatrist who is actually willing to give an honest appraisal of you, and who is willing to sign a letter if he thinks you are good.  You could spend many months hopping from one psychiatrist to another only to find out they are all prejudiced against gun ownership and unwilling to sign a letter for someone who is absolutely normal.

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Call the lawyer, pay the lawyer.

 

If your initial shrink won't sign, nobody else will without taking you on as a patient for a little while. Some will sign such a letter, I know people who have gotten one. That too goes easier if you do it up front rather than tell them the police won't give me a gun unless you say it is ok.

 

 

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I'm not really sure what you mean by "you screwed yourself by doing that" - if you are referring to how I answered question #26, then I disagree with you completely.  I am absolutely not going to answer a question falsely or lie on a question that I am submitting to a police department in this fashion.  I am posting with a very specific question - and that is if anyone can help me in locating a doctor, physician, or psychiatrist that might be willing to conduct an examination on me and then write an appropriate letter to the police department.  I respectfully request that if you do not have an answer to this question, then you simply do not respond to this thread instead of responding in the manner in which you did.  Thank you.

A few people who have said Yes to question nr 26 went here:

 

http://www.ifp-testing.com/

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A few people who have said Yes to question nr 26 went here:

 

http://www.ifp-testing.com/

Damjan - Thank you for the first actual response with information that could possibly help me (both on this forum and another one)!

 

I just emailed them to inquire if they can assist me with my situation, so I guess I'll wait and see, but I appreciate the response!

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You have been told what you should do by people who know far more then you about the subject. You simply don't want to listen. You keep doing what you think you should do instead of what you should do.

 

I honestly hope it works out in your favor but in my opinion you doing what you wanted you cost yourself a lot of money and may have forfeited your rights. Good luck.

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You have been told what you should do by people who know far more then you about the subject. You simply don't want to listen. You keep doing what you think you should do instead of what you should do.

 

I honestly hope it works out in your favor but in my opinion you doing what you wanted you cost yourself a lot of money and may have forfeited your rights. Good luck.

How exactly would you have handled the situation??:

 

- Not included the letter regarding the circumstances around my previous attempt in my previous town?  In doing so, they might have just given me the permit, but they also might have requested a letter anyway (like the first town did), or they might have just denied me outright, in which case I'd have to spend a lot more money than I will now to appeal the case.

- Answered question #26 with a no?  I will absolutely not do that since it's very likely against the law and could end up landing me in a gigantic pile of trouble

- Hired an attorney first?  Either way, I'd have to spend the money on the attorney - doing it after submitting the application but before getting denied vs. doing it before the application is probably a wash in terms of the difference in cost.

 

Any way you look at it, I'm between a rock and a hard place due to my previous visit with a mental health professional and will most likely have to pay an attorney some amount of money to get a referral to a doctor (and then more money to the doctor).  Yes, I could have just submitted the application with a yes for Question #26 and no supporting letter, but I doubt very much the cops are idiots - they would see my yes answer to Question #26 and it would allow them to either request the exact letter they are requesting now because of my supporting letter in my application, or worse, deny my application outright requiring me to spend more money on an appeal than I'll have to spend right now.  

 

So, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "You have been told what you should do by people who know far more then you about the subject. You simply don't want to listen. You keep doing what you think you should do instead of what you should do."  - the only thing I've received on these forums is those who commiserate with my situation and those who don't offer any helpful advice and seem to think I should have tried something "shady" - I've carefully analyzed and considered this situation from a lot of different angles and the way I'm proceeding seems to make the most sense.  If you have another option that I didn't mention above, I'd be happy to listen to it, but otherwise perhaps it might be best for you to not offer me any further "advice"

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Respect2A - by the way, you have purposefully (it seems) kept your posts vague as to whether you were suggesting that I shouldn't have submitted my accompanying letter with my application, or I shouldn't have answered yes to Question #26.  If you mean that I shouldn't have answered yes to Question #26, than it would appear that you are actively encouraging me to commit a crime, since according to the firearms application, "Falsification of this form is a crime of the third degree as provided in NJS 2C:39-10c."  

 

While I don't agree with the question, or the fact that answering yes to it brings up the ability for the local PD to do things like request this hard-to-obtain letter or just outright deny applicants, I am certainly not going to knowingly answer the question falsely and thereby expose myself to criminal penalties!  The question is very general in what it asks for, and unfortunately based on how it is phrased I must answer yes to it in order to be truthful on the application - that is the end of the matter as far as whether I should answer Question #26 yes or no as far as I'm concerned.

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Damjan - Thank you for the first actual response with information that could possibly help me (both on this forum and another one)!

 

I just emailed them to inquire if they can assist me with my situation, so I guess I'll wait and see, but I appreciate the response!

Do read this thread as well.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/17508-effects-of-denial/?hl=%2Boakland+%2Binstitute#entry253329

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So it's been almost a year since I applied for my permit, and yet the application still is in limbo as far as I can tell from the local PD (the person who apparently handles these applications there isn't that great about getting back to me or explaining anything).  Here's a quick recap of the past year:

 

- was told I needed to get fingerprinted, pay for the application (to the local PD), and get the doctor's letter.

- I got fingerprinted many months ago and also paid for the application

- I found a doctor that was willing to see me and conduct a session to then determine if he was OK writing me the letter - we had the session, he got the records from my previous doctor, and then he wrote me the letter (and also sent a copy to the local PD)

 

All of the above happened months ago (at the beginning of 2014).  Then, nothing for months and months.  Now, I'm being told that the local PD doesn't have my fingerprints (something about how the state police stopped some kind of program and they aren't able to retrieve them - not entirely sure to be honest since it wasn't explained to me by the local PD very clearly).  

 

I would think that after 11 months, I'd have an answer one way or another (hopefully a YES answer since I did everything I was asked by the local PD).

 

It's not that I'm being denied - it's just that this has been in limbo forever and I'm not sure how to proceed at this point.  It's still possible they could approve my application (and that's what I'm hoping), although it seems likely I'll have to go get fingerprinted again (and pay for it again). 

 

Any thoughts or advice?  Thanks!

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