Is S2723 an Improvement on Status Quo?

[222 3]

The bill does not specify many implementation details.  It mostly charges the NJSP and NJAG with tasks for defining the implementation details within specified timeframes (10 months, if I recall correctly). 

But, if the implementation details are as you describe, the whole system would be untenable.  Forget crashing, the system could never get off the ground. 

The bill does specify that certain details of the bill, such that 4 year renewal will follow 2C:58-3. This is the 3 to 6 month process.

 

The bill does specify an escape clause in 12c. But that escape clause applies to section 12 only, the system that dealers will use to read embedded ids.

And that escape clause kicks in the after 25 month of development and 36 months of testing.

 

Meanwhile under section 3 every FID from 25th month is an embedded in DL. And under section 10 embedded IDs could be even sooner.

 

So for 3 or 4 years they are issuing these embedded IDs with no way to read them.

 

And if the escape clause in 12 is taken after 36 months of testing, that just means the old FIDs and P2Ps are still in effect. But the rest of the bill like renew every 4 years still happens. Since there is no embedded P2P, so you are still applying for every pistol permit.

 

So instead of being in Place B, we are all in Place C. No honey, all poison.

 

I try to avoid hyperbole and exaggerations by citing specific language in specific bill sections.

[222 3]

Also the bill mandates many programs. Fiscal estimate says significant costs in upfront and maintenance. That can be translated to millions per program, per year.

But the bill doesn't fund these programs. That comes later in appropriations.

So all the Democrats have to do is to pass the bill, but don't fund it. No embedded DL or separate ID.

 

But what will remain are the unfunded mandates. Renewal every 4 years, because that is the law. The township still has to accept your renewal applications, but detective salaries aren't paid by state taxes but by property taxes, so increased costs for 350,000 more annual background checks aren't Sweeney's problem: that probkem goes to your mayor and police chief.

 

It is a political win with no costs.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Don't see the benefit, My current FID has no expiration date, why would I want to change that. This bill doesn't eliminate the P2P process, and it doesn't streamline anything, if anything it does is put your FID in jeopardy every time you go to renew your license from what I can see.

 

Don't see many any positives here.

[iRescue 0]

Don't see the benefit, My current FID has no expiration date, why would I want to change that. This bill doesn't eliminate the P2P process, and it doesn't streamline anything, if anything it does is put your FID in jeopardy every time you go to renew your license from what I can see.

 

Don't see many any positives here.

I agree. IMO, the vast majority of NJ gun owners will see no added benefit from this bill.

 

Aside from the fact that it calls for training requirements that would be set forth by a board on which the antis who pushed for the bill sit.

[OldCrow 1]

A question.  I see a lot of people who think this bill will effectively ban online sale of ammunition.  Why do we think this will happen when the bill contains specific provisions to allow it?  I understand, and am not happy about, the registration angle, but it is seems to me that the fear of an online sale ban is overblown.  See below:

 

10 (2) On or before the first day of the tenth month following

11 enactment, the superintendent shall develop a program for the

electronic reporting by dealers, on a real-time basis, of all 1Internet1 12

13 rifle and shotgun ammunition sales and transfers, and information

14 relating to each such sale and transfer. The reported information

15 shall include the name, age, address, type of firearms identifier

16 exhibited or possessed by the purchaser or transferee, the caliber

17 and numerical amount of ammunition sold or transferred in the

18 transaction, the date of the transaction, and such other information

19 as the superintendent shall deem necessary for the proper

20 enforcement of this section. The superintendent shall establish an

21 electronic data base containing all such reported information, which

22 shall be available to all law enforcement officers on a real-time

23 basis. The superintendent shall establish security procedures to

24 protect the confidentiality of the information contained in this data

25 base, which shall preclude access to the information to any person

26 not lawfully entitled to it. For the purposes of P.L.1963, c.73

27 (C.47:1A-1 et seq.), the information contained in the data base

28 established pursuant to this subsection shall not be deemed a

29 government record.

 

Similar provisions for handgun ammo appear later in the bill.

[Steve_G 51]

A question.  I see a lot of people who think this bill will effectively ban online sale of ammunition.  Why do we think this will happen when the bill contains specific provisions to allow it?  I understand, and am not happy about, the registration angle, but it is seems to me that the fear of an online sale ban is overblown.  See below:

 

10 (2) On or before the first day of the tenth month following

11 enactment, the superintendent shall develop a program for the

electronic reporting by dealers, on a real-time basis, of all 1Internet1 12

13 rifle and shotgun ammunition sales and transfers, and information

14 relating to each such sale and transfer. The reported information

15 shall include the name, age, address, type of firearms identifier

16 exhibited or possessed by the purchaser or transferee, the caliber

17 and numerical amount of ammunition sold or transferred in the

18 transaction, the date of the transaction, and such other information

19 as the superintendent shall deem necessary for the proper

20 enforcement of this section. The superintendent shall establish an

21 electronic data base containing all such reported information, which

22 shall be available to all law enforcement officers on a real-time

23 basis. The superintendent shall establish security procedures to

24 protect the confidentiality of the information contained in this data

25 base, which shall preclude access to the information to any person

26 not lawfully entitled to it. For the purposes of P.L.1963, c.73

27 (C.47:1A-1 et seq.), the information contained in the data base

28 established pursuant to this subsection shall not be deemed a

29 government record.

 

Similar provisions for handgun ammo appear later in the bill.

The new FID is going to be embedded on your license, it won't be readable by just looking at it. This would require sellers to invest in some sort of equipment or software to be able to read the information. It will also require the seller to spend more time processing and reporting the sales to the NJSP. Very simply, time is money. Will Midway, Brownells, Cabelas, etc, invest this time and money just to be able to sell to NJ? I doubt it. They already cut NY off and will most likely do the same to Jersey, effectively banning on line ammo sales.

[siderman 1,137]

What you posted is the regulations the dealers/stores will be required to report to the state of NJ after any sales that MAY happen. Every stupid little bit of info except the color of the ink used on the paperwork. Some, many, few, all or none may comply with the rediculous amount of work needed to deal w NJ. Or they may just not want to bother with us at all and forget about us which is what the the legislaters are hoping is the actuall result-a backdoor ban. Also the new ID card will have a encrypted code that represents our current FPID but will not readable via standard means such as a pic sent via email, iphone etc. So we cant provide a copy to those stores that require a copy before a sale. What remains to be seen is if that code is going to be readable to retailers outside our state.....

 

?

[illy 1]

The new FID is going to be embedded on your license, it won't be readable by just looking at it. This would require sellers to invest in some sort of equipment or software to be able to read the information. It will also require the seller to spend more time processing and reporting the sales to the NJSP. Very simply, time is money. Will Midway, Brownells, Cabelas, etc, invest this time and money just to be able to sell to NJ? I doubt it. They already cut NY off and will most likely do the same to Jersey, effectively banning on line ammo sales.

 

Actually, the way it's worded, it sounds like we might have to have online ammo sales transferred to a local ffl/dealer:

 

 

electronic reporting by dealers, on a real-time basis, of all 1Internet1 12

13 rifle and shotgun ammunition sales and transfers, and information

14 relating to each such sale and transfer. The reported information

15 shall include the name, age, address, type of firearms identifier

16 exhibited or possessed by the purchaser or transferee

[Glockguy1120 0]

The problem with it is its more bullshit laws that we don't need and won't do anything to make people safe. There should be no give and take, no compromise. We already have some of the strictest regulations in this state. Why do we need more? Everyone should be up in arms or "overreacting" to this. It's already a pita to buy anything firearms related in this state, we don't need extra hoops to jump through.

 

So now when you order 1000 rounds of xm855 at the already inflated price, tack another 25-50 bucks on for the transfer fee. Sounds fair

[Glockguy1120 0]

Plus there's no reason anyone other than the supplier and me should know how much of what I'm buying. It's none of their Goddamn business.

[Vini 0]

It's amazing. What happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ?

Current gun laws suck, but they work to please politician's egos - as useless as was intended from LE point of view. 

How S2723 improves public safety in any practical way? 

[it's not just ranting, I'm getting to the point] 

Politicians are away from reality and live in La-La land with ponies riding unicorns. Or just working hard to please their masters in hopes to take their careers to higher level. 

I can't imagine any LE getting happy about going through hundreds of pages of ammo purchase records by prescreened low abiding people - how it can help to solve anything? What prevents criminal to take 2 hr ride to a free state and buy year supply (few boxes - they don't practice a lot if any) of ammo without any record? 

[point] 

IF out governor doesn't reject this bill, we still can get a little brake.

A lot details are left to AG and SP - real people, living in real world, dealing with real crimes and running their forces on real limited funds. 

There is still a chance that their implementation will make as little damage as possible to prevent mass waste of time and money. 

 

[Imaginos 0]

I might have a misunderstanding of either current NJ law and/or this bill, but considering the "secretly embedded in the DL" option wouldn't that impact long gun purchases both from out of state dealer ( If they don't have the scanner they can insure you have a FPID) as well as face to face long gun transfers (same basic idea)? 

[Templar 0]

I think the law does away with face to face. Every sale public or private would have to use a ffl and a scanner

[Njgunowner 2]

My problems with this bill are as noted in previous threads...

 

No more individual sells. Everything has to go through an FFL.

It effectively BLOCKS all internet ammunition sells. Don't know if you guys noticed, but the locals REALLY like to overcharge. I pay about half what I'd get charged at the local gun stores.

[Underdog 1,593]

There is no telling what these sneaky politicians that don't have our best interests at heart would intend to do with a bill like this if it passed.  The DMV could effectively control your FID with their unelected bureaucracy.   It would allow for much taxation in the form of fees and fines, or anything else they could dream  up and linked to the card.  There could/would be rationing due to the limited resources of the State to process these renewals.  The State could make it arduous for gun/ammo dealers, the police, the trainers to train the citizenry and implement the program.  It could effectively stop online and private sales.  Perhaps it can be scanned from afar, so when you enter a building or something it could be detected in  your wallet.  It would be costly, and with a state with severe financial problems it could be gutted, or the fees passed on to gun owners.  It could be shut off for say not paying a parking ticket or something.  There is no telling what the real reason for the implementation is, but it certainly won't do anything against crime, etc., and you will probably have to use your ID when getting Obamacare, which means that when your license and all it holds on it is scanned, those records will somehow make it into your healthcare file.  And, when renewing, it would leave it open for the State to implement whatever hoops it would like you to hop through before you can renew.  Yes, this will be a model for the nation all right.  And, for those of you that purchase handguns, if you think it is going to change the current BS system for the better, you will realize the folly when you here "gotcha".

 

Yes, the locals do overcharge, but they are trying to make ends meet in such a ridiculous system.