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Dargo72

First Hangun Advice

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Well, I have 2 hangun permits and am looking to get my first hangun.  I have attended safety training and fired both revolvers and semi-autos.  (22, 9mm, 38, 357).  Not a lot of rounds but it did give me a chance to get a feel for some different models and the power of the ammo.

 

So, I need help.

 

I would like to purchase a gun for home defense and intend to practice at least once a month (probably more in the beginning).  I like the simplicity of the revolvers and they all generally felt good in my hand.  Disliked the Glock 9mm (not sure which model) as it didn't feel right in my hand and I was least accurate with it.

 

So, I'm leaning towards a revolver, probably a .357/38.  However, my good friend keeps suggesting I go with a .45 and I generally trust his advice.

 

So here is what I'm generally looking for.  Your sugestions are most welcome.

 

1.  Standard Size/Weight as I'm more interested in less recoil and accuracy (I'm not a small man)

2.  Comfortable grip (or interchangable) with easy trigger reach for person with average size hands (I noticed some of the guns I fired seemed to require me to really stretch to reach the trigger, and my hands are not small per se).

3.  Relative ease of obtaining ammo.  I'm not talking about boatloads but I'd like to be able to get ammo when I want and not wait for weeks/months.

4.  Good stopping power, but of courrse accuracy is more important.

5. Price, up to ~$750

6.   Good manufacturer reputation and availablity of parts and/or accessories

 

I'm probably missing something, so please chime in.  Any suggestions are welcomed.

 

Thank you,

 

 

PS - I do sorta like this.... http://www.berettausa.com/products/px4-storm-f-45acp-910-rd-mag/

Edited by Dargo72

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4" 357 just about does it all. You can get a 686 for your budget or a GP100 for a little lees. Master a DA revolver and any other handgun is easy. Don't buy into needing an action job right away. Millions have learned to shoot well on a stock revolver.

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4" 357 just about does it all. You can get a 686 for your budget or a GP100 for a little lees. Master a DA revolver and any other handgun is easy. Don't buy into needing an action job right away. Millions have learned to shoot well on a stock revolver.

 

 

Good advice.  Few will argue about the reliability of a good revolver. 

In the end you'll have to try a few and see what your comfortable with.  There are a few places you can rent a bunch of guns.    

 

Or just jump in with both feet, and buy a gun like I did.  I adapted to it rather quickly 

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Good advice.  Few will argue about the reliability of a good revolver. 

 

In the end you'll have to try a few and see what your comfortable with.  There are a few places you can rent a bunch of guns.    

 

Or just jump in with both feet, and buy a gun like I did.  I adapted to it rather quickly

 

I agree that some guns "feel" better than others. You can change grips with a revolver to change the "feel".

 

All that aside you can adapt to shoot any gun well.

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Did you try the S&W M&P yet? Many people who don't care for how Glocks do like the M&P.

 

One thing I caution beginners against is buying a gun strictly by how it feels in your hand. There are some guns that feel ergonomic to me if I'm just holding it in my hand, but the most important thing is reliability, and the first ingredient for this is quality parts and build. I would rather have a gun that feels 75-80% ergonomic to me but is known for reliability than to have a gun that's molded to my hand perfectly, but not of top quality. Also, there's a big difference between how a gun feels as a static object in your hand vs how it points when you're drawing from a holster, transitioning between targets, etc. What matters more than "feel" alone is, does it index well for you when you present on target and does the size/girth allow you to secure a positive grip with finger placement on the trigger, and can you access other controls such as the mag release without a drastic shift in your grip.

I've seen more than a few new shooters pick a first gun only cause it felt good in the hand, but end up having issues with the quality of the gun itself, or they have trouble adapting to other aspects of it such as the trigger mechanism.

 

If going the revolver route, I suggest practicing more with .38 Special rounds when you're starting out. Something like the S&W 686 or Ruger GP100 mentioned above will do fine for you.

 

Finally, sorry to say, but your friend who said you should get a .45 is not giving you good advice. Not saying you can't handle the caliber, but there's absolutely no benefit for a beginner to start on a .45. Even for an advanced shooter, there's no proven benefit over a 9mm either.

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I think that 45 is a terrible choice for interior home defense.. 

understand that if your round goes through an interior wall the bullets mass and velocity will dictate the amount of damage it is capable of post interior barrier.. 

 

due to overpenetration a small 16in carbine is far safer.... and a carbine due to being shoulder fired is typically more accurate.. 

 

but if you must get a handgun for home defense over a carbine... I honestly suggest some additional range time before making a final choice....

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 .45. Even for an advanced shooter, there's no proven benefit over a 9mm either.

 

I would not say there is no benefit.. 

the benefit is the round is capable of more penetration and is thus more likely to strike important internal organs... 

 

the idea is to maximize depth or temp cavity.... while minimizing over penetration post interior structure.. this is why I prefer a carbine in 556..

 

 

here you can see just how shallow and weak the 9mm wound is.. would I want to get shot with it? no of course not.. but it is barely hitting the FBI min of 12in of penetration..

 

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

 

 

in comparison this is a TAP round which is a SD round...

still relatively shallow wound... but massive expansion... causing a ton of trauma...

 

Hornady_TAP_Urban_223.jpg

 

 

and lastly is to consider what happens if you miss...

you will notice that most handgun round will actually do MORE damage after passing through an interior wall..

 

Ballistics.jpg

 

 

 

keep in mind there are obviously a million factors.. type of gun... type of ammo... and all that.. but typically I think a small light round like 556 is less likely to do damage to innocent individuals that may be on the other side of a wall should you miss... while also doing a ton of trauma should you hit.... all the while being extremely stable and accurate.. 

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and lastly is to consider what happens if you miss...

you will notice that most handgun round will actually do MORE damage after passing through an interior wall..

 

Ballistics.jpg

 

 

 

keep in mind there are obviously a million factors.. type of gun... type of ammo... and all that.. but typically I think a small light round like 556 is less likely to do damage to innocent individuals that may be on the other side of a wall should you miss... while also doing a ton of trauma should you hit.... all the while being extremely stable and accurate.. 

 

Seriously??

 

Good info....thanks for sharing. I hadn't seen this before.

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The S&W 686/586 is a fine choice and will suit all of your needs, home defense, range target shooting and competition as well if you want to get more involved with shooting. If you feel it is too big and heavy for you, check out the S&W model 60 .357 revolver as well. Although some may say the 5 round capacity may not be the best option for home defense. If you plan on using .38 ammo then it will work for you but if you intend to blast a ton of .357 then go with the bigger and heavier 686/586 model to lighten up on the recoil. 

 

As far as brands go, I personally would choose any S&W over Ruger but both are built very well and will do the same thing for your needs. For the resale value, you will take a hit if you went with Ruger. The S&W's seems to hold there value more in the used retail market and sell much faster from what I have seen. 

 

I would use your other permit on an Semi-auto 9mm pistol. Plenty to choose from so get to some ranges and test as many 9mm guns you can get you hands on. When I was shopping for a 9mm I went to the range and bought 200 rounds of ammo and tried at least 6 different guns. I narrowed it down to a Sig and Walther because they had the best triggers in my opinion. I had an opportunity to get a great deal on a slightly used P99 so I went with Walther. 

 

 

Have fun shopping and good luck. 

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I agree with other posters that .45 is probably more bang than you want on your first firearm. Just so you're aware, that Px4 you like is also available in 9mm.

The simplicity of a revolver is definitely a welcome thing when something goes bump in the night and you're groggy from waking up. You can skip the mental checks for safety on/off, chamber loaded/unloaded, etc. and there's no such thing as a failure to feed/eject to worry about.

ALL THAT SAID, if you want to look at semi-autos, consider a Beretta 92FS. Berettas look and feel more refined than Glocks, but you have to like the external safety (I live with an anti, and for some reason the slide-mounted safety is a comfort to her.) Some people prefer the Glock's simplicty; I prefer Beretta's elegance.

 

If you're not already aware: it's our military's standard issue sidearm, so mags and parts are supremely available (especially for SHTF considerations, if that's your thing). And if it's good enough for our military, it's good enough for me. You can dig up the testing reports from when the Army chose the Beretta back in the 80's if you want more info on reliability/quality/accuracy.

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Wow, I was blown away this morning when I got up and saw this many responses..... thank you.

 

I'll definatley check out the S&W revolvers mentioned and the Berrettas.

 

Oh, and I intend to get a shotgun down the road as well for home defense, but due to time limitations on the permits, I'm looking for handguns first.  Also, I'll probably take the the "basic shotgun" course to get used to them first.

 

OK, now I have to look up some of the acronyms sprinkled into this post so I understand exactly what everyone is talking about.

 

Thank you,

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Well I know you said you don't like Glocks, but I still would highly suggest one as a primary HD weapon.  The reason is they are simple and highly reliable.  In a panic situation simple is good, they were designed to operate very similarly to a revolver - you aim and pull the trigger with no external safeties to deal with.  The Gen4 models come with two removable back straps so you have three choices in the size of the grip.  I love my Gen4 G22 .40cal for HD because of reliability and capacity.  I have put over 1,500 rounds through her and have never had a single jam or failure of any sort, I wish I could say the same for some of my expensive 1911s.  The other advantage to this weapon is capacity, it holds 15+1 rounds of .40 cal versus only 6 for the 686 revolver (7 in the plus version).  I have a 686+ too, but would be concerned with over penetration with .357 mag in the home.  You can use hollow point or other expanding rounds in .40 cal which have great stopping power and much less chance of over penetration.

 

I recently took a two day defensive handgun training course and the most recommend weapon was the G22, glad I already owned it. 

 

You are right on with accuracy being important, but it does not have to be pinpoint accuracy.  A well placed .22LR shot will do a lot more for you than a missed .45cal shot :)  That said your goal in HD is to be able to place a few rounds on center mass quickly, that is very different that being able to hit a quarter at 15 yards.  Also keep in mind that most HD situation will likely take place at between 7 and 21 feet.  Think about that for a moment, how far away from you would a bad guy be if he entered your bedroom?

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I also vote for Glock. My Glock 40 cal G22 is my HD weapon. It is simple, reliable and powerful. It is a perfect HD weapon and a fun range shooter. There is way too much emphasis on ergonomics these days. Im not saying it dosent matter at all but I will say that my hand and eye have always adapted very quickly to any handgun I have used. The older Glocks can be a bit of a handful but the new Gen 4 models do have a substantially better grip. If i could only have one gun it would definitely be my G22. There is no sensible reason to buy a 45 as a first gun.

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I would not say there is no benefit..

the benefit is the round is capable of more penetration and is thus more likely to strike important internal organs...

 

the idea is to maximize depth or temp cavity.... while minimizing over penetration post interior structure.. this is why I prefer a carbine in 556..

 

 

here you can see just how shallow and weak the 9mm wound is.. would I want to get shot with it? no of course not.. but it is barely hitting the FBI min of 12in of penetration..

 

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

 

Funny, that same picture is exactly what many others use to demonstrate why the difference between a 9mm vs s .45 is minimal at best. Sure, you get some difference, but the reality is that we're talking fractions of an inch, especially when using good modern JHP rounds. The other benefits off a 9mm such as lower recoil, higher capacity usually, and cheaper ammo (which should in theory equate to more practice) far outweighs the fraction of an inch in penetration and cavity size you get from a .45. In the end, all handgun rounds suck compared to a rifle round, as you stated.

 

Ken Hackathorn has stated on video that he sees many people shoot a .45 Glock in his classes. He also then said unfortunately most of those people don't shoot them as well as they should. I have to suspect that many people out there who rave about their .45s would be better off with a 9mm without even realizing it.

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A revolver in .38/.357 is versatile and a good choice.  I would look for one with a 3 to 4" barrel in stainless.  Since you aren't worried about size, consider a S&W Model 686 in .357.  To save a little money, pickup a Ruger GP100.   If you have ANY thoughts of being able to carry it at a later point, then I might consider a 5-shot Ruger SP101 as it is more versatile (get the Hogue grip for it though), however, since it is your first gun, there is nothing wrong with either a  686 or GP100 as a full-size revolver.  If you are on a budget, look for a 6 or 7 shot Taurus 66.  And, if you find a Ruger Six series.... Security, Service, Speed for sale, used, then that might be a nice alternative.  It is sized between the GP100 and the SP101.  Get a .357, as it can shoot both .38s and .357 instead of a .38 only revolver.

 

For your second choice, you could get a 9mm semi-auto, or something in .22LR to practice with. 

 

One direction you could take is to get a .22LR revolver such as a S&W 617, 317, Ruger SP101, or Taurus 990/992.  That would enable you to practice with something similar to your main defensive gun if you choose the .357 revolver.   I would probably avoid a single-action revolver.

 

If you choose either a revolver or a semi-auto, another option would be for you to get  a .22LR semi-auto for versatility and practice... My suggestion would be a Ruger Mark II (used), Ruger Mark III, Ruger 22/45, Ruger 22/45 Lite, Browning Buckmark, or a S&W M&P 22.  Out of these, for a first-time gun owner, I would probably choice the Ruger 22/45 Lite for its versatility and weight, etc..  If  you don't mind polymer, I'd recommend the 22/45 Lite or the S&W M&P 22.  Mags are expensive and hard to find for the Smith, though. 

 

Now, if you choose to get a semi-auto over a revolver, I suggest a 9mm.   If you don't mind DA/SA, I would get either a Beretta 92 or a CZ 75.  The CZ has a slightly smaller grip which might be attractive for a medium-sized hand.  Striker-fired, get a S&W M&P since you said you didn't like the Glock, but if you did decide on a Glock you could get a .22LR conversion kit for it, and there are other brands such as SIG that you can get a conversion kit for it.  The SIG 229 and 226 are both very nice.  I'd recommend the 226. Then you would have a 9mm and a .22LR.  Since you don't want a Glock, I would suggest one of the following two...  a CZ 75B and a Kadet conversion kit, or a S&W M&P 9.  And, another options would be a Springfield Armory XD/XDM.  If you are comfortable with the grip size of the Beretta 92/M9 you cannot go wrong.  I would suggest looking for a Beretta 92A1 with removable front sight and rail.

 

You might also want to get a 10/22 when purchasing so you only have to go through one background check.  I believe you have to add it on at the time of doing the nics check.   

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OK, so I'm narrowing it down, a bit.

 

Here is my potential list and some questions.

 

1.  S&W 686

2.  Ruger GP 100

3.  Beretta Px4 Storm, Full Size, 9mm

4.  Beretta 92SF

 

Regarding the revolvers - 4" or 6" barrel?

 

What about ammo availability/cost between .38, .357, 9mm?

 

Now I'm looking to go to a range and hopefully be able to try out at least some of these.  The closest range to me is Hague's Indoor range in West Deptford (

 

I'm sure I'll think of more, but thank you for your continued help.

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Ok having read all of the others thoughts on this here is a different suggestion and what I have done. You have 2 permits which is the same thing my wife and have done. We took instead of running out and getting a large HD gun we picked up a 22 each. Even with the shortage of ammo I have bought well over a thousand rounds at or under .07 per round. This has allowed us to go to the range at least once every other week and practice.. Now we are starting to get much better hitting consistantly and working on our techniques and creating good habits. Had we bought a larger gun we would not have gone as much or been able to work on improving. Right now 9mm is going on average .32 per round that means I can shoot about 6 22lr shoots for every 1 shoot of 9.

Once you can hit a good grouping consistantly and you have a much better feel for shooting you can make a much better and more informed purchase for your REAL HD gun.

A few people I know bring their 22's to the range every time just to get into their swing first before grabbing the larger round.

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If you are thinking about a .22 pistol consider getting a 9mm and a .22 conversion barrel kit or vice versa.  Sig p226 is a great choice but on the expensive side. It's like getting two guns on one permit. 

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Funny, that same picture is exactly what many others use to demonstrate why the difference between a 9mm vs s .45 is minimal at best. Sure, you get some difference, but the reality is that we're talking fractions of an inch, especially when using good modern JHP rounds. The other benefits off a 9mm such as lower recoil, higher capacity usually, and cheaper ammo (which should in theory equate to more practice) far outweighs the fraction of an inch in penetration and cavity size you get from a .45. In the end, all handgun rounds suck compared to a rifle round, as you stated.

 

Ken Hackathorn has stated on video that he sees many people shoot a .45 Glock in his classes. He also then said unfortunately most of those people don't shoot them as well as they should. I have to suspect that many people out there who rave about their .45s would be better off with a 9mm without even realizing it.

In the assumption of 45 vs 9mm I was assuming training and operator ability was equal... Obviously if you can shoot a fly at 50 with a 22 but can't even load a 45... Then in that instance a 22 is better... Also I was certainly not recommending 45.... I personally carry 40 because I feel it a good compromise between 9 and 45....

 

In regards to wound depth and temp cavity.... Fractions of an inch can be the difference between stopping and not stopping an attacker..

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OK, so I'm narrowing it down, a bit.

 

Here is my potential list and some questions.

 

1.  S&W 686

2.  Ruger GP 100

3.  Beretta Px4 Storm, Full Size, 9mm

4.  Beretta 92SF

 

Regarding the revolvers - 4" or 6" barrel?

 

What about ammo availability/cost between .38, .357, 9mm?

 

Now I'm looking to go to a range and hopefully be able to try out at least some of these.  The closest range to me is Hague's Indoor range in West Deptford (

 

I'm sure I'll think of more, but thank you for your continued help.

 

 

If the Beretta 92 grip works for you, skip the PX4 Storm and get the 92.  I don't like the 92 grip size.  The PX4 Compact is only slightly smaller than the Storm full-size and you don't have to worry about modifying magazines or sticking with 10-rounders.  The Compact comes with 15.  So, in the State of NJ the Compact might be better.

 

A CZ 75B should be on that list!

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While there are wrong answers to this question (though not in this thread, so far), there is more than one right answer--as we're seeing.

 

My answer for what is best for someone new to handguns is a three-gun progression (in order, but keep all three--don't trade one in for the next).  I realize this is answering a question that is not exactly what you asked, but here goes:

 

First, a quality .22 semiautomatic.   Someday .22LR will again be easier to find and afford, and this will encourage more practice time.  Also, the .22 doesn't cause or mask bad habits in a new shooter the way a centerfire round will.   And get adjustable sights, certainly here and on the revolver, but my own preference is to have adjustable sights on all three guns.

 

Second, a quality .357 revolver.  It will allow stepping up to centerfire power gently, with 38 special loads, while still allowing for some very powerful loads at the top of the .357 range.

 

Third, a quality 1911-pattern .45 ACP, though I realize there is plenty of room for discussion here on both the platform and the caliber.

 

Those three guns will span a tremendous range of capabilities, and none are likely to sit unused in the safe.

 

Find someone competent to coach you (shooters are usually very happy to help a noobie), and make sure you get good gun safety practices hardwired.  Then focus on precision slow fire on paper targets until you have a firm grasp of the basics of grip, sight alignment, and trigger squeeze.  Then you can spend your time blasting away at whatever kind of shooting makes you happy.

 

Oh--and if you want to progress as a marksman, I strongly recommend competition of some kind.  It can be local, it can be low key, it will almost certainly be fun...but most of all, nothing makes you improve as quickly as the knowledge that someone is watching and keeping score.

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Stop the Presses!

 

I went to my local gun shop (Rayco Armory - Merchantville) with the intention of just talking about pistols/revolvers and maybe handling a few.

 

Well, long story short, they had a lovely GP100 with the "Davidson Exclusive" 5" heavy barrel.  I held it, asked questions, dry fired, and...........  OK I bought it!

 

It just felt so nice and balanced.  The SA/DA trigger pulls felt just right.

 

Now I just have to get ammo and get to practicing (after thoroughly reading the manual of course and getting comfortable with the gun).

 

It really is beautiful in person and feels like quality.

 

Pictures to come......

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