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Yes, I wrote correctly. NY as in "New York."

 

I learned just last night that it is relatively easy to obtain a concealed carry permit in upstate NY. Some counties are easier than others. There's something called "restrictive" carry which allows you to carry -- openly, I believe -- while hunting and fishing. However, it seems that with a bit of effort you can get this changed to full (concealed) carry. Some counties will pretty much give anyone a CC as long as they pass the required checks.

 

I was unaware that NY was so lenient in this regard. 

 

This is another reason why, in my opinion, the organizations that represent NJ gun owners should abandon arguments related to constitutional or God-given rights, natural rights, self-defense, etc. Yes, those are all valid reasons for changing NJ gun laws. However, they mean nothing to the party that currently controls the legislature. 

 

I'll bet most of them are totally unaware of the pervasiveness in the U.S. of CC, and that even in liberal NY state, most citizens outside of NYC (I read that Buffalo is also somewhat restrictive) can obtain concealed carry licenses. 

 

Which raises another point: Could counties pass their own CC legislation? After all, NJ is a "may issue" state that does not (legally, at any rate) forbid carrying firearms. In other words, could my rural county instruct judges and police to issue carry permits to individuals who meet certain criteria?

 

 

 

 

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What about NYC?  Does this work for NYC?

 

No. The exception is NYC.  In fact, the carry permit is recognized by every county except NYC.  You have to get a separate permit for NYC.

 

I think that the difference between NYC and NJ is that if you meet the criteria in NYC - namely you own a business, getting the permit is "easy." But the criteria is laid out.

 

In NJ, any business owner can carry in their business , but NYC requires something called a "premises license" for that.  In one sense, we are looser than NYC on that.

 

But... if you want to carry your gun to the bank when you deposit your money, you can get a "Limited carry license."  Which, from what I understand is fairly easy to get.  There are other licenses - "Business carry, Special Carry" and so on.  That allow you to carry generally without a specific destination and so on.

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What's interesting is that NYC actually creates an underprivileged class with this.

 

Basically, if you own a bar, you can go to the court, pay the fee, and say "I own a bar and transport cash."  The judge gives you a limited carry permit where you can carry one specific revolver to and from your bar and the bank.

 

If you refill vending machines, you can go to the court with the fee and say: "I refill bending machines" and the judge gives you a special carry license.

 

If you are Donald Trump, the judge gives you an unrestricted business carry license.

 

But if you want to carry to protect yourself from being sexually assaulted... well%

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A permit issued in NYC is valid throughout NY. A permit issued anywhere else in NY is not good in NYC except if are a retired LEO. I'm not well versed regarding NY law and if the NYC carry permit is written in state law.

 

Another point IIRC is judges in NY are elected. They are appointed in NJ. You can live in Bergen County and be a judge in Sussex in NJ.

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No. Counties cannt pre-empt state law.

 

Ahh, but I'm not talking about pre-empting state law. Current state law says something to the effect that you make your case for the need to carry, individual judges exercise their discretionary power, and almost always turn you down. 

 

Note the recent news stories regarding Illinois, where they say it was the "last state" not to offer concealed carry, totally ignoring the fact that NJ essentially is a de facto no-issue state. These journalists, at least, recognize NJ as a de jure "may issue" state. 

 

What I'm suggesting is that counties simply pass legislation defining "need" down to a more basic, fundamental, i.e. constitutional level for their courts. 

 

Do counties pass their own laws in this state? I don't know.

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Some counties in NY are now making it mandatory you attend a handgun safety course, approved by the state, before issue of the permit. Westchester, Rockland and Putnam come to mind. Rockland and Putnum sheriff's conduct the course free of charge.

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I'm no lawyer but to me, mandatory training classes for concealed carry seem to be a reasonable accommodation given our (and NY residents') current situation. I realize that individuals in "free" states, and constitutionalists here, will disagree. Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona are doing fine without a training requirement, as are many other states. 

 

We don't live in those other states. We live in a state where a trip to the bathroom can get you several years in the penitentiary. We have to be reasonable in our demands. We have to learn from the left, which has reached its position of dominance in states like ours not by pushing for radical change, but through the process of erosion, of slow evolution. Like the proverbial lobster in the kettle.

 

It's a long-term, long-range battle. If we're selfish and rail against liberal politicians, call them names, tell them exactly what's our minds, quote the Founding Fathers, argue the finer points of constitutional law, throw in a reference or two to God, we will get nowhere. We must fight on empirical facts, on ideas of justice and harmony with surrounding states. We must point out that our laws, governing actions with no legal consequences in 45 or so other states, can send good people to jail and ruin their lives and their families' lives.

 

Common sense.

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Ahh, but I'm not talking about pre-empting state law. Current state law says something to the effect that you make your case for the need to carry, individual judges exercise their discretionary power, and almost always turn you down.

 

Note the recent news stories regarding Illinois, where they say it was the "last state" not to offer concealed carry, totally ignoring the fact that NJ essentially is a de facto no-issue state. These journalists, at least, recognize NJ as a de jure "may issue" state.

 

What I'm suggesting is that counties simply pass legislation defining "need" down to a more basic, fundamental, i.e. constitutional level for their courts.

 

Do counties pass their own laws in this state? I don't know.

You said in your original post " could counties pass their own CC legislation". The answer to that is no. Do counties pass their own laws? Yes, whatever is required to regulate their facilities and operations. Firearms is not one of them.

 

We have many liberal antixgun politicians in NJ so we get judges like them. I'm sure their is some recourse for politicians to take if a pro-2A judge started issuing a lot of permits.

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We have many liberal antixgun politicians in NJ so we get judges like them. I'm sure their is some recourse for politicians to take if a pro-2A judge started issuing a lot of permits.

This is what I'm kind of getting at. Identify judges who are pro-2A, and work with them. If they issue enough carry permits, and nothing bad happens, other judges sitting on the fence will see the writing on the wall. I think.

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This is what I'm kind of getting at. Identify judges who are pro-2A, and work with them. If they issue enough carry permits, and nothing bad happens, other judges sitting on the fence will see the writing on the wall. I think.

 

 

Nothing bad has happened in 47 states. Soon to be 48 (Illinois). If that aint enough to do it, then nothing will.

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Nothing bad has happened in 47 states. Soon to be 48 (Illinois). If that aint enough to do it, then nothing will.

You hit the nail on the head. This should be the teaching point, and we should take it up and express it factually but respectfully. We are starting at close to zero. You don't get a kid to eat spinach by yelling at them. We've been taking the wrong approach. The more we yell, the tighter they clamp their palms against their ears, threatening even more "model" legislation.

 

PLEASE: No more yelling. No more fist-banging. No more constitutional or religious concepts that many individuals view as abstract and/or subjective, or just plain ludicrous. Those approaches may have worked in other states, but they are in good part responsible for the current state of affairs in New Jersey. We may think their perspective is ridiculous and anti-fact, but many of our legislators grew up, like me, brainwashed into hating guns. Fear and prejudice are tough things to shake.

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This is what I'm kind of getting at. Identify judges who are pro-2A, and work with them. If they issue enough carry permits, and nothing bad happens, other judges sitting on the fence will see the writing on the wall. I think.

 

Judges in Superior Court in NJ are appointed initially for a 7 year term.  They can be reappointed at any time during that term and if they are they can stay until they are 70. 

 

If you apply for a carry permit in NJ it will be heard in the county you reside.  If you want to "work with" judges you need a pro-2A judge as the Assignment Judge, who is appointed by the NJ Supreme Court, to steer your hearing toward a pro-2A judge as he or she is the one who decides which judge will hear your case.  A judge doing so can be charged with some type of misconduct as a judge is supposed to be impartial in all decisions.  Steering carry permit hearings to a judge that will approve them is not impartial. 

 

"Working with a judge" is, as it should be, illegal.  It would be the same as jury tampering.

 

You mention defining "justifiable need" more clearly and I most certainly agree.  However, the law as it is leaves that up to the judge.

 

I agree that CCW has not been any kind of problem in any state.  Constitutional carry hasn't been a problem either.  The only way the CCW issue will be corrected in NJ is if its forced into it by a Federal court as has happened in IL.  That is a fact.  You're not going to get the state legislature replaced with pro-2A people. 

 

BTW, Hawaii has a justifiable need, may issue, CCW law.  It is actually worse than NJ's as I've heard there were only 2 carry permits issued for the entire state (don't know if that's true).   

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If you want to "work with" judges you need a pro-2A judge as the Assignment Judge, who is appointed by the NJ Supreme Court, to steer your hearing toward a pro-2A judge as he or she is the one who decides which judge will hear your case.  A judge doing so can be charged with some type of misconduct as a judge is supposed to be impartial in all decisions.  Steering carry permit hearings to a judge that will approve them is not impartial. 

 

Why should the process not be impartial? Since when has the judiciary (at any level) been impartial?

 

I do not believe that a judge steering a case to a pro-2A judge would be guilty of anything. I'd like to hear from lawyers on this. 

 

I'd be happy if they would steer cases equally, if they liked, to pro- and anti-2A judges. That alone would be progress.

 

We're entered a bunker/captive mentality in this state. Looking for ghosts in all the wrong places.

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We must fight on empirical facts, on ideas of justice and harmony with surrounding states. We must point out that our laws, governing actions with no legal consequences in 45 or so other states, can send good people to jail and ruin their lives and their families' lives.

 

Common sense.

 

I respectfully disagree.  I've said it before, and we are going to get Shall-issue through one of three ways:

 

#1. Judicial Remedy

#2. By electing a new legislature

#3. When someone in NJ has a Suzanna Hupp moment.

 

I hate to say it, but I think #3 has the best chance of happening.  Look at the Millburn home invasion: How many wives in Millburn went to the gun store today only to be told that they need to go apply for a gun and it will take 30 days?

 

If that woman were to stand before the legislature tomorrow and beg for her gun rights, we wouldn't need Governor Christie to veto the bill.  

 

The problem with #3 is that somebody has to get hurt for it to happen.  But it has to be so awful that all of the soccer moms in NJ will be reluctant to venture out to the store without a .38 in their purse.  When we hit that moment, then it will happen.

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.......I think that the difference between NYC and NJ is that if you meet the criteria in NYC - namely you own a business, getting the permit is "easy." .....

 

Im a business owner in NYC, and know a lot of cops....but last time I looked it was a total pain in the ass to get a CCW in NYC...and they said it probably wont be approved and then Ill have to answer yes to the question if ive ever been denied a gun permit....

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I respectfully disagree.  I've said it before, and we are going to get Shall-issue through one of three ways:

 

#1. Judicial Remedy

#2. By electing a new legislature

#3. When someone in NJ has a Suzanna Hupp moment.

 

I hate to say it, but I think #3 has the best chance of happening.  Look at the Millburn home invasion: How many wives in Millburn went to the gun store today only to be told that they need to go apply for a gun and it will take 30 days?

 

If that woman were to stand before the legislature tomorrow and beg for her gun rights, we wouldn't need Governor Christie to veto the bill.  

 

The problem with #3 is that somebody has to get hurt for it to happen.  But it has to be so awful that all of the soccer moms in NJ will be reluctant to venture out to the store without a .38 in their purse.  When we hit that moment, then it will happen.

 

 

Not to mention if that woman went to the PD and had to wait 6 months instead of 30 days, and then found out that her pistol was only good for use in her home...  Then you would have the perfect storm.

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Im a business owner in NYC, and know a lot of cops....but last time I looked it was a total pain in the ass to get a CCW in NYC...and they said it probably wont be approved and then Ill have to answer yes to the question if ive ever been denied a gun permit....

 

There's business carry but it is hard to obtain. Oddly enough a lot of rich people who live in NJ and other states have BC licenses because they can't get SC licenses as nonresidents. SC is what Trump and Anthony Cumia have. It's basically an endorsement to your NYS license.

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You mention defining "justifiable need" more clearly and I most certainly agree.  However, the law as it is leaves that up to the judge.

 

I think Justifiable need is clearly defined but it is a tough standard that it is impossible to meet.

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I am curious about the mcbethr theory. Can any FFLs confirm whether they've had an uptick in store traffic that fits the profile?

 

Keep in mind that It's not something that I want to happen.  Suzanna Hupp had her parents die in front of her.  But I wouldn't be surprised if gun stores in the area saw more traffic in the coming days.

 

This is how things get moving, when the wealthy have to wait for a gun permit, laws have to change.  It's sad, but it's true.  The rich really do live by different rules.

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These stories are ample and obvious. Everyone knows about them. They DO NOT WORK as arguments for changing NJ gun laws. They have no impact on NJ legislators who grew up hating guns, and hating gun-owners. 

 

They do not care about home invasions. To them, these are abstracts. They care more about the criminals, the savages who prey upon us, than they do about us. I posted about a month ago about a prosecutor I know who routinely lets illegal aliens go free, while punishing USA citizens accused of the same offenses.

 

It is time to change tactics. These tired old arguments have got us NOTHING, nowhere. We're going backwards. The more we propose then, the worse off we are. Don't you realize this by now???

 

We have to begin playing a different game. If we don't, if we keep antagonizing these assholes, we're going to wind up with nothing. If you think it can't happen, wait until Fat Boy signs these bills. Then what?

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If anyone remembers about 2-3 years ago Christie was going to nominate M.P.Carroll to a superior court judgeship but quickly removed his name for what ever political reason,  If someone like MPC was to be a superior court judge than the answer would most likely be YES , for whoever was in his district.     

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Friggin NYC PITA... I'll keep doing what I'm currently doing (Pepper spray)...

You may want to double check that...

 

"It is only legal to carry pepper spray in New York if the canister is pocket-sized. Each canister must have a label on it indicating that the spray is for self-defense purposes only. Although it is legal to carry pepper spray in New York, it must be purchased within the state. It is illegal to mail pepper spray from another city, state or country into New York.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_6611469_pepper-spray-new-york-law.html#ixzz2XPiA59da

 

 

It seems it must be purchased with in the state...is this for anyone carrying pepper spray or New York residence only?

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You may want to double check that...

 

"It is only legal to carry pepper spray in New York if the canister is pocket-sized. Each canister must have a label on it indicating that the spray is for self-defense purposes only. Although it is legal to carry pepper spray in New York, it must be purchased within the state. It is illegal to mail pepper spray from another city, state or country into New York.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_6611469_pepper-spray-new-york-law.html#ixzz2XPiA59da

 

 

It seems it must be purchased with in the state...is this for anyone carrying pepper spray or New York residence only?

 

Yup - read through that.  I'm legit.

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