jauslong 0 Posted June 26, 2013 I think there is already a thread generally about the recent Millburn home invasion. This one is meant to be focused on a specific question. Now, I realize that asking this question on a gun forum might remind some of us of the old saying that "if your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" but I'm asking everyone to think out of the box on this one. Assume these facts: You have a wife, a 3 year old and a 1 year old at home. (if you are a heterosexual woman or a gay man, you can assume that your partner, while male, is very small in stature, ok?) You have a two story home, with your 1 year old sleeping upstairs. Your sig other and your 3 year old are watching tv, when a person decides to come into the home. What, realistically, could the victim have done differently. Here's my two cents, but I'm really interested in hearing yours: She did everything right. If she fought back, chances are things would have turned out worse. By keeping quiet, she may have saved her kid's life. The only thing that I think she could have maybe, maybe done differently was grab her kid and run upstairs as soon as the guy busted into the house. Instead, she backed away from him. That said, if you've ever been broken into while you are home (which I have), you know how hard it is to think about what to do. So, really, what, if anything do you think she could have done differently? Try to keep it realistic. Hopefully the mall ninjas will sit this one out. I ask this because, I do have a wife, a 3 year old and a 1 year. And I live less than 10 miles from Millburn. My wife and I are having this conversation, and really are at a loss as to what we ought to do to prepare for a situation like this. However remote it might be. Thanks, as always, for everybody's shared wisdom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2ANJ 0 Posted June 26, 2013 Well for one I will say before someone else chimes in and says a security system...realisticly most people who do have them deactivate them when they are home and walking about. So, I feel thats out of the question. I think every scenario is different. You can never say "Oh do this....or...Oh do that.." Where the intruder breaks in is a big factor and where you are located is another huge factor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted June 26, 2013 Panic button that triggers an audible alarm in the house and calls police. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jauslong 0 Posted June 26, 2013 Panic button that triggers an audible alarm in the house and calls police. It's a thought. Wouldn't the damage already been done by the time the police came though? Even if it takes 15 minutes for cops to come, that seems like too long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyDigz 1,793 Posted June 26, 2013 Reinforced door frames and deadbolts and either steel or solid wood (no hollow core) doors that can not be simply kicked in. This repels "casual" intruders and delays intruders determined enough to bring and use use tools. If there are glass patio doors/french doors/large windows at ground level that could conceivably be used to enter then they should have security film applied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted June 26, 2013 It's a thought. Wouldn't the damage already been done by the time the police came though? Even if it takes 15 minutes for cops to come, that seems like too long. If the button is hit right away, most criminals are not sticking around. And an audible signal neighbors can hear is even better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted June 26, 2013 This may seem harsh, but a gun should be their first choice of defense. If that is not attainable, then fight back. Too many sheeple in this world. If one is not willing to defend themselves in some manner, then .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChadShaft 0 Posted June 26, 2013 Did the intruder kick in the door or was the door unlocked. I'm always amazed how many folks just leave their door unlocked. If we have our door up we at least lock the storm door. If he kicked in the door I would think she had a little reaction. I know the dude was a big guy, but if you have a dead bold it usually takes a couple of hits to get through the door. I can't stress enough having a phone nearby. It only takes a few seconds to run up stairs with the kid and barricade herself in a room with a phone. I think the real thing that this comes down to is being prepared in the mind. While she handled it well without fighting back, a lot of people just freeze and that's the biggest killer in my opinion. And to the original poster, don't believe the gay stereotypes, I know a few gay guys that would have put a beating on that guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcbethr 42 Posted June 26, 2013 IMHO, there is nothing wrong with a Kimber Pepper Blaster. Its light enough to keep on your person and small enough to fit in your pocket. Anybody can get one and carry one pretty much wherever pepper spray is allowed. If she had a Kimber on her person, than man would be howling in pain at the base of the steps. I carried one when I delivered pizzas. I wouldn't feel undergunned with a Kimber Pepper Blaster Vs. one unarmed intruder. A panic alarm would have helped. I doubt any intruder would stick around if they heard an alarm going off. From what I understand, this attack stemmed form normalcy bias. The woman heard a crash and she went to investigate. She should have called the police, or sent her kid upstairs while she retrieved her gun. But - think about it. How many times have you heard a strange noise and went to investigate - only to find out the cat knocked over a teacup? Granted, this is a gun forum, but just because we are into guns doesn't mean that it's the solution to every problem. Most people aren't going to thing: Intruder when they hear a noise during the day. They are going to think: "That darned cat." You can what-if a situation to death. In this case, I don't think there would have been that much of a change in outcome unless the house was alarmed and she had a gun on her person. There is also the possibility that you could do everything right, and you still get killed. Sometimes, it's just not your day. You can prepare and prepare and prepare. And I'd rather be prepared, but sometimes no matter how much you prepare- you lose the fight because of Murphy's law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M4BGRINGO 139 Posted June 26, 2013 We have the fight or flight scenario. It is built-into us and I doubt it can ever be changed. Some will go towards danger, others will flee. If you happen to have a gun in your hand then maybe you won't be too quick to flee. Those that know me know they can stand behind me, or go for help, because I am not backing-down unless the perp has a gun. Besides, I have a tiny house full of crap that no one else is gonna want anyway, except for Alec and Nick! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgeHM 5 Posted June 26, 2013 My wife and I were just talking about this be for I left for work. If it was my wife she would have fought back with everything she has. But my wife is also not a small girl. If it happened at our home he would have had many sharp items sticking out of him since we enter through the kitchen. My wife is also in the process of getting her fid and 2 pistol permits. She also knows how to get to any of my guns if needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcbethr 42 Posted June 26, 2013 I know a few gay guys that would have put a beating on that guy. +1. Gay doesn't necessarily mean unarmed or helpless. You would just look fabulous while kicking the crap out of the guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodentoe 14 Posted June 26, 2013 This story is really makin me consider picking up a subcompact 9 for home carry. I don't want to add a caliber so it will be 9. Something easily concealed that can be used either as a primary defense weapon or used to fight to my primary 9 in the box upstairs. Thoughts on glock26, s&w shield, kahrpm9, kel tec pf9, ruger lc9? I need to ease my wife into carrying in the house. She acknowledges that our home isn't as secure as it should be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulpup 98 Posted June 26, 2013 I like this thread topic. Kudos to you sir. My wife had an incident where someone broke into her apartment when she was at home. She and her roomates rented the entire four story brownstone so they thought it was a friend of a person that rented with them. The guy saw them and walked out. My sister was home when one of her old kindergarten play pals that had grown up and got himself a free-base habit came in looking for our stereo. She hid. Because of that one single incident and hearing about my sister's incident my wife continues to balk at getting her mindset to "PREPARE." This video should hopefully show her what a crap shoot it could be. Just imagine all the times there was no nanny cam. As always, I refer back to my days in the military and I am very familiar with the concept of exposure to a concept and a little bit of practice as well as a few agreed proceedures making all the difference in a hot situation. More precisely, Step one is being aware that this can happen. Don't get too hung up on what she could have done based on what you see in the video. Take it for what it is - a violent person walked in and beat an unsuspecting mother. Don't even get to hung up on what the guy actually did. Just know a person can walk right into your house no matter what you do and beat the piss out of you. I don't want to go on about fortifying but it should be considered. What you should do now is start thinking about what you would do based on your own house. Where could you retreat to? Are the phones placed where it is convenient to use when cooking or where you might need to run to if there is an intruder. Should you consider how you could get there, what you would say if you got to the phone, would you be safe when you used it? Should you always have your cell phone with you at home? Is it always charged? things like that. Next is how you could fight back. That is the biggest thing I see when looking at the video. A loss of ideas means act like a rag doll? B.S. She had no ideas, was getting beat and now says it was her plan. She had none. bs. I don't have many answers but the begining of being ready is seeing the need to be ready and accept that a really shitty scenario could happen and make smart observations about how you live and what you could do. Just knowing that in advance can make all the difference. Similarly, my wife refuses to consider what she could use as a weapon or what she would or could do if something like that happened. You can't plan for everything, but you should give what you COULD do some serious and regular thought. Identify things in your house that you COULD use to fight with or use to your advantage. Remember, you know your house better than an intruder. That way if it ever does happen you might just remember something you came up with months ago. My one observation of the video is more of a question to my wife - Imagine if she had the forethought to run away from the guy by getting the table between them. How much time would that buy you and what could you do with it? If the house is laid out similar to ours (and it looks like it is) my wife would have backed through the dining room to get to the nanny cam. Grab a chair and make an obstacle - again then what would you do with those few seconds. Those are starting blocks. Lastly, I leave you with something a fire marshall told everyone in our building once. "this guy went out and bought an escape ladder and put it under his bed. When they found him he was in the bedroom, the ladder out of the box and in his hands, but the manufacturer had shipped it tie wraps holding it closed. He had the ladder, knew where it was and never thought to take it out of the box and practice his plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,872 Posted June 26, 2013 Thoughts on glock26, s&w shield, kahrpm9, kel tec pf9, ruger lc9? Beretta Nano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted June 26, 2013 I have no idea what I will do. We have glass door on the deck and a steel door in the front. The other entry is through the garage which has steel doors. First floor windows might work but we have sticker bushes below them. The way our house is situated we can see someone long before they pull up. The only way someone can mount a surprise attack is to come through the woods. So I have time to prepare. I already home carry but I am thinking of getting some pepper spray as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulpup 98 Posted June 26, 2013 Beretta Nano It's funny but the gut on that guy made me decide that my ground floor PPK has to be replaced with something that could make it through all that fat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jauslong 0 Posted June 26, 2013 And to the original poster, don't believe the gay stereotypes, I know a few gay guys that would have put a beating on that guy. No sterotype intended. My best friend since grade school is gay, and I wouldn't cross him. My point was to be inclusive in the post. Assume your significant other (not you) is home with your kids, what should they do? Assume beating the shit of the giant dude who kicked in your door is not an option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravozulu14 0 Posted June 26, 2013 "If she fought back, chances are things would have turned out worse. By keeping quiet, she may have saved her kid's life." I don't know if you have children or not.... but by "just taking it" she also could have gotten knocked unconscious or even thrown into another room/down the stairs (oh wait, she did) and then her children taken/raped/murdered depending on the perp. Had that guy been a pedophile, it's game over for her children. She was extremely lucky he was only after money and then left and even in the footage, it seems like there's a moment where the guy may take it to the next level and try and kill her. Kick, punch, bite, gouge, attack soft tissue, the groin, the eyes, the throat. Killing him with kindness is not a sound strategy. Also, like others have said, a more secure perimeter is the first thing they should have done differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted June 26, 2013 Id say just like owning a safe, securing your home as best you can may not ultimately stop a criminal from breaking in, but what it does do is buy you TIME. Time is what this poor woman did not have on her side. An alarm system (preferably monitored) can give you the benefit of acting as an audible deterrent ("ohh shit alarms going off, cops are on the way") non monitored systems obviously do not have the benefit of automated police response via a panic button. But buying time seems so crucial in a situation like this. The perp attempts to break in...if he gets in on his first attempt you are caught with your pants down. Stalling him 30 seconds or more could mean the difference between this lady scooping her daughter up and going upstairs, giving her a head start to get to an alarm panel, a gun, a place of safety, and a means to call for help. Seconds count. When your life is in danger seconds last FOREVER. Accepting the fact that this can happen to anyone anywhere is a good start. This is your home.. your castle. Think and act ahead to defend yourself and your family, and dont let yourself be this story on the news. TL:DR Strengthen the areas most likely to be broken into Get a monitored alarm is financially possible Have a plan, and have a back up plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jauslong 0 Posted June 26, 2013 Some good ideas floating around. We have a commercial grade combo lock on our front door, so its always locked (and you get never lock yourself out). We don't give the combo to anyone who didn't change our diapers as babes. Back door is another story. Screen door to screenroom, with sliding glass door to house. If you're not afraid of broken glass, that could be opened very easily. I fear that those who would advocate carrying during the day at home are discounting what its like to have a 3 year old and 1 year old in the house. If you get to use the toilet uninterrupted and don't have food stuck to your clothes, that's a damn good day. I would be very hesitant to keep bear spray around a 3 year old. Even more so a loaded handgun. At least on my person, while dealing with small children. It's a very hands on job. By which I mean, they get their hand-on everything. I keep my guns unloaded, locked and high up. It would take way too long to get one to use it spur of the moment. I'm not ruling out a gun as a way to be prepared, but I have serious concerns that the more accessible it is to us the more accessible it is to my kids. Right now I've struck a good balance that I can get it in about 1 minute and my kids cant get it at all. We used to have a pitbull in the house, which would be great for this sort of situation. But she really had a hard time adjusting to our kids, starting snapping at them, and was politely asked to pack her things and live elsewhere. I don't think we are ready to get another dog for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
67gtonut 847 Posted June 26, 2013 Once again...... I will praise the quick access safe I use http://www.fas1safe.com/main.sc Keeps gun secured from children..... or any other reason you want it locked up...... But it presents the gun to you faster then any other safe I have looked at..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bulpup 98 Posted June 26, 2013 http://redpanicbutton.com/ for smartphone is an idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 889 Posted June 26, 2013 I am going to buy a wall safe that looks like a picture and place it downstairs. I have a handgun safe upstairs and of course the main safe is in the basement. All floors will have access to a firearm. I talked to my wife last night and had her go through a few firearms for familiarity. I then told her to immediately get whatever is closest, a knife from the kitchen or a gun first! I told her it's like on an airplane, you put your mask on first and then the kids. Defending yourself and family is first and you can't do that if you are unarmed. My house is a nightmare from a defensible position given how the property is and it's layout so I determined a firearm on each floor and we have a pretty good alarm system already Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted June 26, 2013 I thought the universal rule they teach women in self defense classes is everything the opposite of "sit there and take it". The guy was in the house for ten minutes. Maybe that long because she didn't yell for help. The neighbor was close. The motto of keeping quiet of the kids sake is a bad one I believe. Keep quiet and "hope" he doesn't kill you? I'd rather get killed him trying to knock me out than "hope" he just leaves nicely Ten minutes in the house !! Also I guess I'm crazy, but I go over the practice in my head: hear bang, immediatley run upstairs and get gun/pepper spray. Yes that means leave the kid in the couch. You take care of yourself first to assess the situation. Then you go back for kid. Humm let me see: Two helpless on the couch or one helpless and one taking action? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 889 Posted June 26, 2013 Forget pepper spray, what about bear spray as it shoots 30 ft! I figure if it can stop a bear, a 230 man should be no problem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PDM 91 Posted June 26, 2013 I think your assumption that she did everything right is faulty. Yes, in this particular case, she came out of it ok. But the reality is, if this animal had different inclinations or reacted differently, it could have turned out much, much worse. It is logical to assume that someone who would do what he did would also take it much further -- murder and/or rape this woman and possibly kill the kid as well to eliminate any witnesses. It very easily could have gone down that way (remember that poor mother and her daughters in Connecticut who were raped and killed -- the mom actually drove to a bank before going back home where she met her horrible fate). So, the question boils down to this: are you willing to leave the most precious thing you possess -- your child's life and your life -- in the hands of an animal like this. Are you willing to let someone else decide if you live or die. In my opinion, the answer should be "no." That means: 1) if you are in a situation to avoid trouble, to escape, to de-escalate, it is your duty (and common sense to do it). Put aside pride, avoid road rage, etc. and get out of the situation if at all possible; 2) if option 1 is not possible, do everything possible -- bite, scratch, kick, scream -- to stop the attack. We talk a lot about guns, but I think basic self-defense training -- krav maga for example -- is a very, very good idea. That said, I agree that none of us really know how we will react when in this situation. It's easy to be a chariborne Ranger. But I do think that self defense training -- where you get used to hitting someone, yelling, being aggressive, getting outside your comfort zone, AND being hit, is very, very useful, whether or not you are armed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted June 26, 2013 The Perp WENT UPSTAIRS to rummage through the bed rooms. When he came back down the stairs she should have ENDED HIM! A covert hiding place for a firearm on each floor would have saved the day. We can all "what-if" this to death. The facts speak for themselves. She was a typical North Jersey deer-in-the-headlights anti-gun dipshit, otherwise during the interview she would have stated she wanted to get her gun.....so THERE, I said it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigBlueQ 7 Posted June 26, 2013 Dog. Good size, rescue pup, and raise him or her from a puppy. I have two, 95 lbs and 75 lbs. Wouldn't hurt a fly (actually they do try to snatch them when they get close). Train them CORRECTLY! Meaning with love, not fear. If an adult comes to my house who they don't know, my wife and I, and even my 5 and 7 year old girls, can give the "release" command and they revert to lapdogs. If not, God bless ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jauslong 0 Posted June 26, 2013 I think your assumption that she did everything right is faulty. Yes, in this particular case, she came out of it ok. But the reality is, if this animal had different inclinations or reacted differently, it could have turned out much, much worse. It is logical to assume that someone who would do what he did would also take it much further -- murder and/or rape this woman and possibly kill the kid as well to eliminate any witnesses. It very easily could have gone down that way (remember that poor mother and her daughters in Connecticut who were raped and killed -- the mom actually drove to a bank before going back home where she met her horrible fate). So, the question boils down to this: are you willing to leave the most precious thing you possess -- your child's life and your life -- in the hands of an animal like this. Are you willing to let someone else decide if you live or die. In my opinion, the answer should be "no." That means: 1) if you are in a situation to avoid trouble, to escape, to de-escalate, it is your duty (and common sense to do it). Put aside pride, avoid road rage, etc. and get out of the situation if at all possible; 2) if option 1 is not possible, do everything possible -- bite, scratch, kick, scream -- to stop the attack. We talk a lot about guns, but I think basic self-defense training -- krav maga for example -- is a very, very good idea. That said, I agree that none of us really know how we will react when in this situation. It's easy to be a chariborne Ranger. But I do think that self defense training -- where you get used to hitting someone, yelling, being aggressive, getting outside your comfort zone, AND being hit, is very, very useful, whether or not you are armed. I think that is a really interesting point, and it might come out differently depending on the person. I'm 6'3", 285 and worked as a bouncer for long enough to know what to do. I think the general consensus is that trying to fist fight me in my home wouldn't be much fun. My wife though. I don't really think she should try to fist fight people. I just don't. Resist? Yes. But just enough to get away. I worry about teaching people enough martial arts to think that they could protect themselves when it really just instills false confidence. Of course, in this case, each situation can vary. And the more you guys point it out, the more I can see that maybe she should have been more proactive in her self-defense. She didn't even really seem to put her guard up. That might have helped. This idea though that a person (like my wife) who has never been in a fight before, wouldn't know what to do, and has very little chance of doing any damage at all to an attacker should try to kick his ass, doesn't sound right to me. Then again, sitting and doing nothing, that doesn't sound right either. My thinking is still evolving on this point. It's so situation specific. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites