would you use a 1911 for home defense?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I am curious as to why a couple of people here recommend the AR for home defense? What about sweeping the room with it vs. a pistol? I guess it depends on the size of your home. I tend to agree with the concealability of a pistol. Not that everyone cares about it, but going outside to investigate something with an AR, and if it is a false alarm, I can imagine if you have nosy neighbors there could be problems. If you go outside with a pistol and flashlight, you can always tuck the pistol in your pants and walk away.

 

 

I feel MORE confident with an AR15.. two hands on it... weapon light.. and a sling to keep it attached to me in a struggle.. overpentration is reduced compared to anything else... and at close range 556 can be devastating.. 

[checko 180]

A 1911 and a Kabar is an absolutely proven HD combination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I personally have a 1911 loaded next to my bed just because its easier than having my rifle there.  That said my rifle is locked up no more than 5 steps away.  Situation would dictate what I'll use. 

[Old Dog 19]

I recommend that everyone go through a dry run of clearing their house. Try opening closet doors, flicking on light switches, turning suddenly in narrow hallways or on stair cases and then see if a long gun or handgun is the right tool for you. I too used a shotgun and AR-15 for home defense at one time but when I did a walk through I found it was very cumbersome for doing a lot of normal things and also thought what if I had to hold someone at gun point for 20 minutes waiting for the police. That long gun would get very heavy and require the use of both hands. Try handcuffing someone while holding a rifle on him too. For me the final straw was finding two areas on my home where if I turned around suddenly my long gun would hit a wall or staircase rail. No way would I remember the areas where I had to lower my long gun to avoid that if under extreme stress.

 

To tell the truth, the recommendation for a shotgun for home defense is from a long time ago and I cannot recall any modern well respected firearms instructor that recommends them as their first choice anymore. Plus too many buy them thinking that they are death rays and do not require much practice when in fact they require more practice than handguns for home defense. I used to watch guys compete is action shotgun matches with their home or hunting shotguns and it was interesting to note that when under time pressure, a good number of them forgot to rack their pump gun or short stroked it the first few times they competed. My own cousin had a shotgun for home defense for 40 years and never shot it. He was told it was the best weapon for home defense and when the time came he just needed to point it and he would hit whatever was in front on him and not penetrate his walls. At age 70 I told him that the 12 gauge he had loaded with 00 buck would knock him on his butt since he had no idea of how to hold it. He never even racked it once. I had him check out a few websites to see that instead of one projectile penetrating his walls, he would have many doing it. I believe 00 buck is .36 cal pellets and they will certainly penetrate dry wall as well as any bullet can.

 

I have since switched to a handgun and love having a free hand to do the things that need to be done to open doors safely and not worry about hitting stuff with my long gun. BTW, shotguns jam too and after shooting sporting clays with them I know that clearing a shotgun jam can turn into a project, both with pump and semi autos.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Many of the issues you brought up regarding using a long gun for HD are solved with the addition of a modern 2-point quick adjust sling such as a BFG VCAS or VTAC and a white light that has a clicky or constant on feature. The issue of hitting the barrel on furniture and the like is solved with situational awareness, familiarity, searching/clearing techniques, and practice. Easy day.

 

As far as keeping a bad guy covered, I have found that covering a suspect in any position (prone, seated, kneeling, or standing) with a handgun at full extension, or really any useful ready position, and being ready to engage is much more fatiguing than using a well balanced rifle pulled tight into the shoulder. Additionally, keeping the rifle slung at a low ready and retaining a master firing grip is a relatively relaxed position and is very fast to engage from. Faster than a pistol that isn't already sighted in for sure.

 

If I didnt have an AR and had to choose between a 12g and a 1911 (or any handgun) to defend my home and loved ones, I would choose the shotgun all day long.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Many of the issues you brought up regarding using a long gun for HD are solved with the addition of a modern 2-point quick adjust sling such as a BFG VCAS or VTAC and a white light that has a clicky or constant on feature. The issue of hitting the barrel on furniture and the like is solved with situational awareness, familiarity, searching/clearing techniques, and practice. Easy day.

 

As far as keeping a bad guy covered, I have found that covering a suspect in any position (prone, seated, kneeling, or standing) with a handgun at full extension, or really any useful ready position, and being ready to engage is much more fatiguing than using a well balanced rifle pulled tight into the shoulder. Additionally, keeping the rifle slung at a low ready and retaining a master firing grip is a relatively relaxed position and is very fast to engage from. Faster than a pistol that isn't already sighted in for sure.

 

If I didnt have an AR and had to choose between a 12g and a 1911 (or any handgun) to defend my home and loved ones, I would choose the shotgun all day long.

 

 

I can handcuff someone with a rifle on a sling... but I am not sure I would go out of my way to handcuff anyone... that is what the police get paid for... an intruder is laying face down in carpet and not moving or getting shot.. the police can round him up when they get there.... 

 

on another note.,. I swear some of you live in caves.... sure.. my house is relatively dark at night... but it is certainly not pitch black ever... there is enough light in the house to see clearly..  I intentionally leave a few lights on.. and there is light cast in the living room from outside.. 

 

one last thing to consider.. when used properly the muzzle end of a carbine can cause a pretty hard hit when used to strike an individual straight on..not that I would recommend that over shooting someone.. but it is an option that you have.. you are carrying a big metal pole.. 

[Old Dog 19]

Many of the issues you brought up regarding using a long gun for HD are solved with the addition of a modern 2-point quick adjust sling such as a BFG VCAS or VTAC and a white light that has a clicky or constant on feature. The issue of hitting the barrel on furniture and the like is solved with situational awareness, familiarity, searching/clearing techniques, and practice. Easy day.

 

As far as keeping a bad guy covered, I have found that covering a suspect in any position (prone, seated, kneeling, or standing) with a handgun at full extension, or really any useful ready position, and being ready to engage is much more fatiguing than using a well balanced rifle pulled tight into the shoulder. Additionally, keeping the rifle slung at a low ready and retaining a master firing grip is a relatively relaxed position and is very fast to engage from. Faster than a pistol that isn't already sighted in for sure.

 

If I didnt have an AR and had to choose between a 12g and a 1911 (or any handgun) to defend my home and loved ones, I would choose the shotgun all day long.

 

You make my point. You are aware of the issues and trained to use a long gun. Most people buy long guns for home defense because of the perceived ability to use them with no training. There are many ways to prevent handgun fatigue. Some as simple as switching hands, resting gun on top of something, using off hand on and off, etc.. Of course, part of any training with a handgun should be using it with your off hand. I know enough from personal experience not to count on having your strong hand available to you after a fight A relative of mine used his right arm to ward off a blow from an oar. Broke his fingers in many places. Could not use his gun because he never trained with his left hand and they tossed him in the lake to drown. Luckily someone saw it and saved him. this was about 30 years ago and he still only practices target shooting with his dominant hand. Go figure.

[vladtepes 1,060]

You make my point. You are aware of the issues and trained to use a long gun. Most people buy long guns for home defense because of the perceived ability to use them with no training. There are many ways to prevent handgun fatigue. Some as simple as switching hands, resting gun on top of something, using off hand on and off, etc.. Of course, part of any training with a handgun should be using it with your off hand. I know enough from personal experience not to count on having your strong hand available to you after a fight A relative of mine used his right arm to ward off a blow from an oar. Broke his fingers in many places. Could not use his gun because he never trained with his left hand and they tossed him in the lake to drown. Luckily someone saw it and saved him. this was about 30 years ago and he still only practices target shooting with his dominant hand. Go figure.

 

 

you hit on the point of training.. 

 

something to think about.. how many people... just within the confines of this site which is mostly gun enthusiasts train correctly.. how many do you think have considered that the person they draw on may in fact be on drugs.. may charge them.. how many do you think have even shot a gun in the dark... or at a point blank target one handed... or while on their back.. 

 

people for the most part own guns and hope for the best.. while I am not judging any single individual we should all train far more aggressively if we actually intend to count on a weapon to save us.. 

[Shane45 807]

Training, in my mind is a given. But the issues go a little deeper in my opinion. So seperating the details is likely in order.

 

Who is really clearing their own house? Who really feels qualified to do so? This question raises a lot of specific circumstance questions. Would I clear my own house if I were single? Yeah probably. Would I if I had dependants in the house? If you are the only line of defence and you go down, who  is protecting them after? Im sure some have spouses capable, but some do not. Every circumstance is different but I think, generally speaking, if you know you have enemy in the wire, your moving to a protective, defencive position and calling police. If this is not your thinking, I would suggest you reconsider.

 

Conversely, I am of the mind set that less "official" involvement in my life, the better. We have all reviewed the cases of good people calling for help and ending up being the ones treated like the criminal because they had the misfortune of getting an unlucky draw of the officer that responds who, lets just say for example he is the guy the chief had to pull his ticket book because he is so.....overzealus. So I do not want to call the po po for every bump in the night. I WILL call (and have called) if I get the sense I really have a problem. This is why I prefer a handgun because for me, it is a lower risk investigative looksee and I dont want to get caught out in the open on the off chance a real threat emerges.

 

To checker 50's point, a pistol, in my situation, is easier to keep secure out of sight and have quick access to. Teenagers at home and sometimes not all mine.

 

 

Back to the topic at hand, there is NO reason a 1911 would be inferior in any way to any other type of pistol. It will all depend on your dedication to being proficient with your choice 1911 or otherwise.

[MidwestPX 172]

To the point about using a 1911 for HD, it wouldn't be my first choice.  Here's why: http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=604345&postcount=2

 

But even if reliability weren't a factor, say all 1911s are as reliable as all polymer guns, I still wouldn't use one.  7+1 or 8+1 mag capacity leaves alot of capacity on the table.  In NJ, you can have up to 15 rounds so a Glock 19 is an outstanding option.  Or an HK P30.  Simply put, I'd opt for a double stack 9mm because the terminal ballistics of modern JHPs makes 9mm just as effective as .45.

 

As for using a handgun or a long gun for room clearing, unless you're trained to do it and practice it, I wouldn't recommend it.  In a home defense scenario, the average shooter shouldn't go looking for the threat.  Secure your family, dial 911 and point your gun down a bottleneck like a hallway or a stairway landing.  If that's what you're doing, take advantage of the superior terminal ballistics of rifle rounds.

[Shane45 807]

This is anoter debate entirely. "9mm because the terminal ballistics of modern JHPs makes 9mm just as effective as .45". I would take exception with "just as effective" BUT I may accept close enough to only make a difference in some cases. In my mind it could truly be a 6 on one hand, half a dozen on the other scenario. On one hand with a 9mm you may have more chances to cause a hydraulic leak in a vital. On the other hand, a .45 has a better chance of making it to said vital. The question becomes how long are you going to get to try and hit said vitals? Im thinking most people being shot at arent going to wait aroud for 1 of 15 to hit the mark. There is a former city LEO that went on to hold a position performing criminal autopsies. So he collected information from the perspective of effectiveness of pistol calibers. The salient points I came away with from his report was that a)deceased from 9mm always had many more shots in them compared to 45. b)the wound channel of 9mm was deflected, in many  cases, away from hitting a vital organ from impacting bone etc etc where the .45 continued on path to connect with the vital. One could infer that, generaly, those hit with a single or few 9's walked away compared to those hit with a single or few .45s who expired. The second inference is self evident that from the perspective of the guy cutting open the bodies on the slab having a look, the .45 is more effective. The author of the report will NOT carry a 9mm. FWIW. In terms of capacity, I have not had much success finding cases of protracted gunfights for civilians. I perfectly understand its application in terms of mill and even police. But there should be an understanding that ALL scenarios and needs may vary. Consider the Navy SEAL's have adopted the HK45C that is in .45 and only holds 8 or 10 depending on which mag is used. I know some departments prefer .45 because they feel there is a real possibility of having to shoot through a windshield. Reportedly the .45 is better in this regard. The point is I would recomend assessing your own needs and considerations as they may be different from those of a department, agency or military.

 

On the topic of reliability. I dont care what it is, it needs to be vetted. For many, 500 to 1000 rounds is the minimum count without issue. The reliability issue with 1911 complaints are an irritation to me. It was designed at a time when labor was cheap and technology was expensive. Today the reverse is true. But the 1911 was not designed to be built this way. It was designed to be built by human hands from quality materials. A 1911 built as designed is an expensive pistol. As would a Luger made in this day and age. But when you have MANY different companies all racing to the bottom, your are going to get crappy 1911's!!! Economy of scale can only account for so much. Consider that I buy parts at wholesale or close to it. It still costs me over $1000 in parts without ANY labor put into the project. So how good can a $500 1911 be? To put it into perspective, how good would a knock off glock be at around the $150 mark? I propose it would suffer the same way. Here is a question. Is there a point to having ANY pistol that can go session after session without lube or cleaning past 1k rounds? My car may be able to go 20,000 miles without an oil change, it doesnt mean I should right?

[Howard 538]

I would not, even though I have two very nice 1911's.  My HD gun is my Glock G22.  Why?  Because it holds 15+1 and is super reliable.  I have never had it jam or have any malfunction what-so-ever.  That is not to say my 1911's are not very reliable - just not as reliable as my Glock.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Why?

Personal preference for safety

[High Exposure 5,664]

Personal preference for safety

What makes a pistol with a decocker safer than a 1911 with a safety?

What about Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, or any other striker fired pistol?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Because a safety is a mechanical device and can fail.

 

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I just don't like having the hammer back unless I'm ready to fire

[High Exposure 5,664]

I just don't like having the hammer back unless I'm ready to fire

What about ARs and 870s then? They are essentially single action and have no decocker?

 

Or any of the striker fired pistols that are 80%-90% pre-cocked (M&P, XD)?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I use a 229. Like I said its my preference.

 

It's a lot easier to have an accidental discharge with a gun that's cocked then one that's not. Nothing against 1911's, I plan on buying one. But my go to gun is a sig p229 chambered with .40 hollow points

[jrfly3006 42]

Why go 1911 when you can have an FNX-45 with 15+1 rounds ready with a light mounted for the same weight as a TRP Springer.. And also the option to carry cocked and locked or DA..

[1563621 388]

first the wheel gun. ruger sp101, 5 shot, If you need more there is a problem. No safety, No FTF,No FTE, Goes BOOM every time!, Want a softer boom use 38s. If you need more than 5 go for the pump.

[david8613 69]

Why go 1911 when you can have an FNX-45 with 15+1 rounds ready with a light mounted for the same weight as a TRP Springer.. And also the option to carry cocked and locked or DA..

i have the fnh fnp 45, very nice gun... I have one permit left and plan to use it but not sure on what, but what ever I get will be used for home defense which I always rotate from other weapons...

[Shane45 807]

jrfly, have you handled an FNX 45? I have fairly large hands and I find it big! I think those with small to medium hands will find it a no go.

 

Shawn, I am truly having trouble following your logic. How is it easier? What exactly is the difference between flicking the safety on on a 1911 vs decocking your sig? A couple of differences I see. A 1911 cant fire from flicking on the safety! So I guess a decocker is not a mechanical device that can fail but a safety is? I wont pontificate on your view your finger on or off the trigger is me being nit picky, but I don't see how you can say the operation of one is safer than the other. I think many that view the operation of a 1911 as somehow more dangerous than others simply do not understand the mechanical operation of the 1911.

 

Dave, a revolver is not infallible. I have commented in the past on seeing an inordinate amount of revolver failures. I see MANY more semi's on the line so the amount of revolver failures I have seen seem high for the # of revolvers I see. My own Python got bound up when the firing pin pierced a primer and stuck and would not allow the cylinder to rotate. I witnessed an empty somehow get under the extractor star on a reload on IIRC a ruger security six. I watched a ruger gp100 get bound up when the hammer block(not sure of the actual part name) got bound up somehow. I watched a firing pin break on a smith. What I will agree to is that a revolver may be less likely to have a shooter induced malfunction within its own capacity.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

jrfly, have you handled an FNX 45? I have fairly large hands and I find it big! I think those with small to medium hands will find it a no go.

 

Shawn, I am truly having trouble following your logic. How is it easier? What exactly is the difference between flicking the safety on on a 1911 vs decocking your sig? A couple of differences I see. A 1911 cant fire from flicking on the safety! So I guess a decocker is not a mechanical device that can fail but a safety is? I wont pontificate on your view your finger on or off the trigger is me being nit picky, but I don't see how you can say the operation of one is safer than the other. I think many that view the operation of a 1911 as somehow more dangerous than others simply do not understand the mechanical operation of the 1911.

 

Dave, a revolver is not infallible. I have commented in the past on seeing an inordinate amount of revolver failures. I see MANY more semi's on the line so the amount of revolver failures I have seen seem high for the # of revolvers I see. My own Python got bound up when the firing pin pierced a primer and stuck and would not allow the cylinder to rotate. I witnessed an empty somehow get under the extractor star on a reload on IIRC a ruger security six. I watched a ruger gp100 get bound up when the hammer block(not sure of the actual part name) got bound up somehow. I watched a firing pin break on a smith. What I will agree to is that a revolver may be less likely to have a shooter induced malfunction within its own capacity.

I didn't say easier. I said safer. I don't like the idea of having to thumb the hammer to decock it. When the hammer is back that trigger is very sensitive.

 

Also when unholstering a gun I'd prefer point and click. The first trigger pull is longer but it's better then messing with a safety.

[bhunted 887]

Geeze, never thought safety on a 1911 was so much trouble. Guess I'll remove mine. But seriously, a 1911 is that unsafe? It was my first semi carry. Never did I consider it a hassle or dangerous using it cocked and locked.. Or chambered safe, etc... Never had an accidental discharge of any kind with it. I trust it profusely...

My Colt Govt 45 has since been retired and is currently one of my staged hd guns. I still trust it!

[jrfly3006 42]

jrfly, have you handled an FNX 45? I have fairly large hands and I find it big! I think those with small to medium hands will find it a no go.

 

Shawn, I am truly having trouble following your logic. How is it easier? What exactly is the difference between flicking the safety on on a 1911 vs decocking your sig? A couple of differences I see. A 1911 cant fire from flicking on the safety! So I guess a decocker is not a mechanical device that can fail but a safety is? I wont pontificate on your view your finger on or off the trigger is me being nit picky, but I don't see how you can say the operation of one is safer than the other. I think many that view the operation of a 1911 as somehow more dangerous than others simply do not understand the mechanical operation of the 1911.

 

Dave, a revolver is not infallible. I have commented in the past on seeing an inordinate amount of revolver failures. I see MANY more semi's on the line so the amount of revolver failures I have seen seem high for the # of revolvers I see. My own Python got bound up when the firing pin pierced a primer and stuck and would not allow the cylinder to rotate. I witnessed an empty somehow get under the extractor star on a reload on IIRC a ruger security six. I watched a ruger gp100 get bound up when the hammer block(not sure of the actual part name) got bound up somehow. I watched a firing pin break on a smith. What I will agree to is that a revolver may be less likely to have a shooter induced malfunction within its own capacity.

I have an FNX-45 Shane.. Its is big but honestly I love the feel.. Aggressive grip texture also.. Comes with extra interchangeable backstrap to fit most size hands..very light recoil too.. I love it

[Shane45 807]

"I don't like the idea of having to thumb the hammer to decock it."

 

This makes it clear to me that you do not understand the manual of arms of a 1911. This is absolutely the most unsafe way to handle a 1911.

 

"Also when unholstering a gun I'd prefer point and click. The first trigger pull is longer but it's better then messing with a safety."

 

Those that are dedicated to the 1911 have no issues with the safety. But I will concede that a 1911 is not for everyone like a superbike, a Z06, or an Indy car are not for everyone. I don't see it as point and click on a sig. I see it as point, pull, pull some more and eventually it will go off LOL. On a 1911 its clear the holster, two thirds up click off the safety, and end with truly point and click.

 

jrfly, I briefly had the FNX45 Tactical. With the flat backstrap I could make due, but I just couldn't warm up to it and honestly believe someone with small to medium hands would really have an issue. With that being said, if the size does not bother you, rock on! I think it would be a good HD pistol.

[acaixguard 37]

The first trigger pull being longer would also take most people longer to get an ACCURATE shot on target. By the time my 1911 is out of the holster, the safety is already off with my thumb riding on it.

Also there should never be a need to ever decock a 1911. Maybe the only times I do are after I check to make sure it's empty and I store it away, but is is just out of habit more than necessity.

[checko 180]

Im pretty sure I can defeat my safety and fire my colt quicker and fire more accurately off the draw than any other double action pistol I've used. Thumbing the safety down is just part of the draw now. There is no need to decock the 1911 anyway.

If you're in a "gunfight" of sorts and still upright after the shooting stops, you sure as hell better have a fresh mag in and ready to roll.

If you are doing idpa, you drop mag, rack slide (x2 or 3)and show clear, then pull trigger in safe direction.

 

If I hear something go bump in the night, and find out its not a threat, safety goes on and gun is stored.

 

Why is a decocker needed? Personally I hate them.

[checko 180]

The first trigger pull being longer would also take most people longer to get an ACCURATE shot on target. By the time my 1911 is out of the holster, the safety is already off with my thumb riding on it.

Also there should never be a need to ever decock a 1911. Maybe the only times I do are after I check to make sure it's empty and I store it away, but is is just out of habit more than necessity.

 

This. Didn't see your post when I wrote mine lol

[Shawnmoore81 623]

And if that's what you want great. But it's not what I want. I would use it as a range gun.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[High Exposure 5,664]

In my experience, people who fear a "cocked and locked" 1911 are either uninformed or uncomfortable with their gun handling skills. Having a 1911 in condition 1 is no different then having an AR or 870 in the same condition. The hammer is cocked and the safety is on. There is no way to "decock" an AR or 870 short of pulling the trigger. Striker fired pistols like the S&W M&P and Springfield XD that are 80%-90% pre-cocked are the same. If something inside fails and the striker is released, it will discharge. How many times have you heard of this happening?

 

ARs and the Rem 870 pattern shotgun are probably the most plentiful long guns in the US, with 1911s and Glocks (another pre-cocked striker fired handgun with no decocker or safety) being the most prolific pistols I know of. we rarely hear about them discharging on their own, but very time one goes off "accidentally" (read negligently) we know what really happened - someone pressed the trigger. That is because safeties don't just "fail" and even if they do, they will not discharge unless you pull the trigger. (This is where the distinction of finger "on" and finger "off" the trigger can really be important )

 

As far as the trigger on a condition 1 1911 being sensitive, the solution is the same as it is for any other firearm in existence - keep your booger picker off the bang switch until you are ready and justified to fire. If you can't follow that rule all the safeties, decockers and heavy triggers in the world can't help you. Also, as an FYI - I have seen more NDs with pistols equipped with decockers than any other handguns with DA revolvers being second. Trigger weight, safeties, decockers aren't the answer. You need to tighten the loose nut behind the trigger to fix it.

 

Never ever thumb down a 1911 on a hot chamber. Baaaaad ju-ju. You have now deactivated any other internal safety (drop or firing pin) and if dropped or hit the weapon will discharge.