would you use a 1911 for home defense?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I'm not worried at all with my gun handling skills. I don't have a 1911 but its on my list. But it didn't meet what I wanted as my go to home defense gun.

 

The 1911 I think is a great pistol for war. But as of now my house isn't a war zone. That's why my ar-15's are locked up in my main safe. I had my ar ready to go the first few nights that gunman was loose in my neighborhood due to the fact it was reported he had a automatic. But that's a different situation then sitting in my safe until my alarm goes off or I hear a bump in the night. Realistically you hear a noise. If my alarm isn't going off you wait quietly to make sure it's really something. You hear it again. You wake your wife up and grab your gun. Now chances are its still could be my kid downstairs and not some burglar. My wife and I go into our plan to this event. The details are between us but I end up downstairs and she isn't. Now a 1911 owner would already have a their safety off. Not me though. I still don't know if its my 11 year old getting a snack or a drink. You're running on adrenaline so you are gonna be jumpy. Now that's how family members get shot.

 

Now as far as a war situation if that gun is out its to kill someone. That is not the same as home defense. Not even close. Chances are the noise IS someone you know. If it isn't you may not even have to shoot the intruder. Yeah it might be easy to sit at a keyboard and say "well I'll just blow their friggin head off" but unless they are a threat you don't just shoot or you too could be locked up.

 

 

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[checko 180]

The 1911 I think is a great pistol for war. But as of now my house isn't a war zone. That's why my ar-15's are locked up in my main safe. I had my ar ready to go the first few nights that gunman was loose in my neighborhood due to the fact it was reported he had a automatic. But that's a different situation then sitting in my safe until my alarm goes off or I hear a bump in the night. Realistically you hear a noise. If my alarm isn't going off you wait quietly to make sure it's really something. You hear it again. You wake your wife up and grab your gun. Now chances are its still could be my kid downstairs and not some burglar. My wife and I go into our plan to this event. The details are between us but I end up downstairs and she isn't. Now a 1911 owner would already have a their safety off. Not me though. I still don't know if its my 11 year old getting a snack or a drink. You're running on adrenaline so you are gonna be jumpy. Now that's how family members get shot.

 

 

 

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How would a decocker be any different in this situation? You think the double action trigger negates how jumpy you are? How about not pointing a loaded gun at someone you havent addressed.

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Because when I'm walking through my house I have one in the chamber but not a single action trigger. Less chance of an accidental discharge in my house. If I identify the noise as an intruder I then can cock it. Once detained I decock. You can say that you can then flick the safety but realistically that won't be the case. And if they do get the jump on you it's one one switch to hit.

 

 

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[checko 180]

Because when I'm walking through my house I have one in the chamber but not a single action trigger. Less chance of an accidental discharge in my house. If I identify the noise as an intruder I then can cock it. Once detained I decock. You can say that you can then flick the safety but realistically that won't be the case. And if they do get the jump on you it's one one switch to hit.

 

 

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I think your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. There is just as much of a chance of a ND. In either case all you have to do is pull the trigger. I feel like your working that hammer way to much. If you identify an intruder you shouldn't be screwing around trying to cock the gun. Keep the intruder in sights and a strong master grip on the firearm.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

My issue is the time leading up to the gun being on target. Even in my "safe" position I can still fire with a trigger pull. I don't want to go through my house with a gun cocked. I can shoot just fine with that first da pull if I have to. If just safer to me. If I had a 1911 Wouldn't even have it in my bedroom safe. Honestly I'd go with a revolver over a 1911 also for home defense. Nothing wrong with the gun they just aren't my choice.

 

 

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[Mikeythumbs 1]

So what about using a glock for HD which I am sure a lot of people do. They are not going to go into a threat without one in the chambers and this gun has no other safety other then not putting your finger on the bang switch till your on target. Same as should be done with a 1911 and and any gun with a decocker. No different the safety is a non issue once your finger is on that trigger you better be shooting otherwise you finger has no right to be there

[checko 180]

I respect the fact that you would choose a gun that you feel more comfortable with. I do however disagree with your statements that they are less safe.

[twong11219 0]

From an article I read a while ago, 45 JHP penetration is not as effective when shot through heavy clothing. 9mm has better penetration performance for that situation so my practice is to use 45 in the summer and 9+P in the fall and winter. My concern had been over penetration thus larger caliber now and smaller higher velocity calibers when the jackets come out. My 1911 is quite reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for HD.

[bhunted 887]

Excellent.... ya had me laughing before my first coffee on this one... 'booger picker'? LMAO!

Anyway as per the last sentence.... that I guess you can say is where you go 'half cocked'....

 

In my experience, people who fear a "cocked and locked" 1911 are either uninformed or uncomfortable with their gun handling skills. Having a 1911 in condition 1 is no different then having an AR or 870 in the same condition. The hammer is cocked and the safety is on. There is no way to "decock" an AR or 870 short of pulling the trigger. Striker fired pistols like the S&W M&P and Springfield XD that are 80%-90% pre-cocked are the same. If something inside fails and the striker is released, it will discharge. How many times have you heard of this happening?

ARs and the Rem 870 pattern shotgun are probably the most plentiful long guns in the US, with 1911s and Glocks (another pre-cocked striker fired handgun with no decocker or safety) being the most prolific pistols I know of. we rarely hear about them discharging on their own, but very time one goes off "accidentally" (read negligently) we know what really happened - someone pressed the trigger. That is because safeties don't just "fail" and even if they do, they will not discharge unless you pull the trigger. (This is where the distinction of finger "on" and finger "off" the trigger can really be important )

As far as the trigger on a condition 1 1911 being sensitive, the solution is the same as it is for any other firearm in existence - keep your booger picker off the bang switch until you are ready and justified to fire. If you can't follow that rule all the safeties, decockers and heavy triggers in the world can't help you. Also, as an FYI - I have seen more NDs with pistols equipped with decockers than any other handguns with DA revolvers being second. Trigger weight, safeties, decockers aren't the answer. You need to tighten the loose nut behind the trigger to fix it.

Never ever thumb down a 1911 on a hot chamber. Baaaaad ju-ju. You have now deactivated any other internal safety (drop or firing pin) and if dropped or hit the weapon will discharge.

[Jon 264]

Clearly the best option is the compromise of a Match + LEM trigger on an H&K. Super light albeit a tad long first pull, with short reset and short pulls for subsequent shots, and every shot breaks at the same weight.

[Shane45 807]

Shawn, you have to many logic flaws rolling to correct. Like others have said, if you dig the sig, carry on. But your reasonings and assumptions on operating a 1911 are....uninformed. You talk about operation under stress. Are you sure you will remember to decock after you just shot at someone and now have to move and engage a threat in another area? Now you have a cocked gun and now have to point in a safe direction to decock. A lot to think about instead of instictively flicking a safety.... This is why it is a better idea to trust the safety between your ears instead of relying on a gismo!

[Combat Auto 174]

OP, you should use what you shoot well...i shoot 1911 extreemly well and do use them for hd...i also use the sa-xd line for hd...why? becase they have a similiar feel to 1911 (not exact, but close) minus the manual safty...For this same reason, I just sold my Beretta PX4, which has a totaly different feel from a 1911 (it has a FAT hand-grip which I do not like; and the DA/SA crap whic I do not like anymore)...So, I have two pistol platforms now 1911 and XD which have a similiar feel and both of which I shoot well...

 

Whan the Zombies act-up (or any other reason why I may need to hightenn security, eg a power failure at night), I break out my 870 w/light/laser....

 

BTW, StoneColdxxx, the AR HD think has been discussed before, and don't let anyone tell you what is BEST (not even High Exposure - Hi HE! :-)), it is a very individual thing based on what a person trains with, the risk profile of their life/neighborhood, convienence, personal beliefs, etc. ---Good arguments cane be made for hand-gun, SG, or AR as the main HD platform.

[SgtToadette 59]

I've always seen the 1911 as a high performance target and competition gun. It is designed well and the tight tolerances and great trigger lead to some fantastic accuracy. I would not, however, trust my life to it:

 

• The capacity is damning. I can have twice the capacity in a double-stack 9mm without too much loss in "knock-down power" (whatever that means).
• I like the simplicity that Glocks and the several other "Glock-offs" have in the safety-less striker trigger mechanism. I pull the trigger and it goes boom. No safeties or hard first-pulls to deal with.
• 1911s are not lefty friendly, which is a deal-breaker for me for a "fighting" pistol.
• The tight tolerances do not allow for high levels of reliability. That's not to say that the 1911 isn't reliable, but when you start introducing debris into the equation I trust modern service pistols more. You simply cannot put the 1911 through the same amount of abuse that a modern service pistol can take and expect 100% reliability.

I would throw out the USP line from HK, Sig P226s, P229s, Beretta M9s (though I don't really care for them aesthetically), and various Glocks. Newer contenders include the HK45/P30, FNX-45, and the Walther PPQ. All the pistols I mentioned above are pistols that I would trust my life with above a 1911.

 

I don't have trigger time behind all or even most of the pistols above, so take that into consideration when evaluating my opinion.

[Combat Auto 174]

I've always seen the 1911 as a high performance target and competition gun. It is designed well and the tight tolerances and great trigger lead to some fantastic accuracy. I would not, however, trust my life to it:

 

• The capacity is damning. I can have twice the capacity in a double-stack 9mm without too much loss in "knock-down power" (whatever that means).
• I like the simplicity that Glocks and the several other "Glock-offs" have in the safety-less striker trigger mechanism. I pull the trigger and it goes boom. No safeties or hard first-pulls to deal with.
• 1911s are not lefty friendly, which is a deal-breaker for me for a "fighting" pistol.
• The tight tolerances do not allow for high levels of reliability. That's not to say that the 1911 isn't reliable, but when you start introducing debris into the equation I trust modern service pistols more. You simply cannot put the 1911 through the same amount of abuse that a modern service pistol can take and expect 100% reliability.

I would throw out the USP line from HK, Sig P226s, P229s, Beretta M9s (though I don't really care for them aesthetically), and various Glocks. Newer contenders include the HK45/P30, FNX-45, and the Walther PPQ. All the pistols I mentioned above are pistols that I would trust my life with above a 1911.

 

I don't have trigger time behind all or even most of the pistols above, so take that into consideration when evaluating my opinion.

Not my job to defend the 1911's but i have 3 of them, and they are fantastic shooters...I have a Kimber Team match 2 with about 1000 flawless rounds on her...And it is hard to argue with an all steel pistol and a 5" barrel. I would agree they are a little more tempermental than some other pistols. The magazine is the week-link, and does require some TLC in maintenace, choice of manufacturer, etc......That said, I also like my XDM-competition with a 5.3 inch barrel and 13 rounds of 45 acp. Not all steel, but with the extra weight of the surfire 400 L/L sitting under her noise it makes a great HD weopon....

 

Overall, I have found that 1911s are no better or worse reliable than other semi-auto-pistols (once you take care of the magazing dimension)...

[checko 180]

1911 were not designed to have such tight tolerances. Modern manufacturers have done that to "maximize accuracy". Buy a colt

 

As far as capacity I've seen average gunfight stats range from 2.2 rounds to 5 kinds per person. One report said anything above that the person fired until empty regardless if there was still a threat.

 

1911s can be made ambivfriendly with an ambi saftey. The slide can be slingshot and mag release can be manipulated with the firing hand.

 

I've also never heard any 1911 owner complain to me about trouble dealing with their safety. In fact most enjoy being able to walk around cocked and locked.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Shawn, you have to many logic flaws rolling to correct. Like others have said, if you dig the sig, carry on. But your reasonings and assumptions on operating a 1911 are....uninformed. You talk about operation under stress. Are you sure you will remember to decock after you just shot at someone and now have to move and engage a threat in another area? Now you have a cocked gun and now have to point in a safe direction to decock. A lot to think about instead of instictively flicking a safety.... This is why it is a better idea to trust the safety between your ears instead of relying on a gismo!

I said on this post many times I don't have a 1911. But when I was picking my criteria for my home defense pistol the sig met it and the 1911 didn't. The topics is would you use a 1911 not can you use a 1911 for home defense

[SgtToadette 59]

1911 were not designed to have such tight tolerances. Modern manufacturers have done that to "maximize accuracy". Buy a colt

 

As far as capacity I've seen average gunfight stats range from 2.2 rounds to 5 kinds per person. One report said anything above that the person fired until empty regardless if there was still a threat.

 

1911s can be made ambivfriendly with an ambi saftey. The slide can be slingshot and mag release can be manipulated with the firing hand.

 

I've also never heard any 1911 owner complain to me about trouble dealing with their safety. In fact most enjoy being able to walk around cocked and locked.

 

I when it comes to capacity, I don't like to bet my life on averages and I want to squeeze as many rounds into my firearm as I can while still remaining effective.

 

While I can certainly modify a 1911 and train to accommodate anything I can't modify, it seems like a lot of work just to get to a point of proficiency that is standard for an ambi gun. Not to mention that my weak-hand manual of arms will be symmetrical with an ambi-gun.

 

I don't have a problem with safeties per se, but if I can get away with not having one I see that as a plus.

[checko 180]

I see your points. I'm just saying.

[SgtToadette 59]

I see your points. I'm just saying.

 

I gotcha. 1911 is a fine platform. I would never say it's a bad gun. It's certainly got the track record.

[Shane45 807]

Yes Shawn, but the point is your disqualifying logic is flawed.

 

For those with capacity concerns, seriously, if anyone has any links to any civy incidents where capacity played a part, I would truly like to review them.

[Damjan 73]

Never ever thumb down a 1911 on a hot chamber. Baaaaad ju-ju. You have now deactivated any other internal safety (drop or firing pin) and if dropped or hit the weapon will discharge.

This is the most useful takeaway for me from this thread.

[Shane45 807]

On the topic of tolerances, a properly built 1911 can maintain tolerance and reliability. An interesting test done by Mr. Larry Vickers:

 

"Sand Test

Just had a chance to do a harsh sand test on few different handguns. This test was not scientific but was very enlightening.

Pistols tested were; HK USP Tactical
Customized 1911
rack grade GI 1911
Glock 21

Test consisted of placing each pistol loaded in a Bianchi GI field holster inside a plastic bag with approx 2 cups of fine/medium grit sand ( North Carolina type). Then the bag was shaken vigorously for 10 seconds while holding onto the pistol butt for safety. The pistol was then taken out and 3 mags were fired through the 1911 and 2 fully loaded mags were fired through the HK and Glock - roughly the same amount of ammo. The sand coverage was very good and uniformly covered the pistols. The pistols were loaded in the mode you would expect in a field environment - condition 3 for the 1911, loaded for the Glock and loaded in DA mode for the USP.A test was done dry and lubed with TW 25B. This test represented EXTREME sand conditions - not normal field use, even in sandy conditions.A brief rundown of the results follow;

1)Carrying your gun dry in this environment is a NO GO despite what some will say. All pistols performed worse dry than lubed.

2)All pistols required some manipulation in order to fire - none would function normally straight out of the holster.

3)Overall the HK USP performed the best - the performance of it dry was roughly the same as the customized 1911 but was definately the best lubed. Overall it performed well.

4)The custom 1911 was second - interestingly enough the trigger track was not a real problem - the sand that went in through the ejection port to the bottom lugs area caused the most problems. Once the sand shifted in this area the pistol functioned better.

5)The rack grade GI 1911 was a distant third - the custom 1911 had an 18 pound recoil spring and that helped with feeding greatly vs the rack grade gun. Swap out the recoil spring and it probably would have done better.

6)The shocker of the day - the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well.

Moral of the story; The 1911, even in its customized mode, can get the job done if you set it up to succeed. Lube it right, carry it in the right holster and in the proper mode, and it won't let you down - just like it hasn't for nearly a 100 years.

The HK USP series are good guns - well designed and well made - for service pistols. The ergonomics hurt the pistol dramatically but for an out of the box service pistol/field gun, they get my endorsement.

The Glock 21 is a dog - always has been. It has the rep of being the worst gun Glock makes. I have a Glock 17 and 19 and like them for what they are - but don't get sucked into the Glock hype - they are not magical guns. Remember what your dad said when you were in 3rd grade; don't believe everything you read.

Hope you guys got something out of this - I did." Larry Vickers
 

[Combat Auto 174]

On the topic of tolerances, a properly built 1911 can maintain tolerance and reliability. An interesting test done by Mr. Larry Vickers:

 

"Sand Test

 

Just had a chance to do a harsh sand test on few different handguns. This test was not scientific but was very enlightening.

 

Pistols tested were; HK USP Tactical

Customized 1911

rack grade GI 1911

Glock 21

 

Test consisted of placing each pistol loaded in a Bianchi GI field holster inside a plastic bag with approx 2 cups of fine/medium grit sand ( North Carolina type). Then the bag was shaken vigorously for 10 seconds while holding onto the pistol butt for safety. The pistol was then taken out and 3 mags were fired through the 1911 and 2 fully loaded mags were fired through the HK and Glock - roughly the same amount of ammo. The sand coverage was very good and uniformly covered the pistols. The pistols were loaded in the mode you would expect in a field environment - condition 3 for the 1911, loaded for the Glock and loaded in DA mode for the USP.A test was done dry and lubed with TW 25B. This test represented EXTREME sand conditions - not normal field use, even in sandy conditions.A brief rundown of the results follow;

 

1)Carrying your gun dry in this environment is a NO GO despite what some will say. All pistols performed worse dry than lubed.

 

2)All pistols required some manipulation in order to fire - none would function normally straight out of the holster.

 

3)Overall the HK USP performed the best - the performance of it dry was roughly the same as the customized 1911 but was definately the best lubed. Overall it performed well.

 

4)The custom 1911 was second - interestingly enough the trigger track was not a real problem - the sand that went in through the ejection port to the bottom lugs area caused the most problems. Once the sand shifted in this area the pistol functioned better.

 

5)The rack grade GI 1911 was a distant third - the custom 1911 had an 18 pound recoil spring and that helped with feeding greatly vs the rack grade gun. Swap out the recoil spring and it probably would have done better.

 

6)The shocker of the day - the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well.

 

Moral of the story; The 1911, even in its customized mode, can get the job done if you set it up to succeed. Lube it right, carry it in the right holster and in the proper mode, and it won't let you down - just like it hasn't for nearly a 100 years.

 

The HK USP series are good guns - well designed and well made - for service pistols. The ergonomics hurt the pistol dramatically but for an out of the box service pistol/field gun, they get my endorsement.

 

The Glock 21 is a dog - always has been. It has the rep of being the worst gun Glock makes. I have a Glock 17 and 19 and like them for what they are - but don't get sucked into the Glock hype - they are not magical guns. Remember what your dad said when you were in 3rd grade; don't believe everything you read.

 

Hope you guys got something out of this - I did." Larry Vickers

 

Good info...I think alot of the stuff about what guns are more reliabale or not are "old wives tales"...As I stated above, I have found 1911s no better or worse then "plastic-pistols" once you take care of the magazine choice (I have a decent size sample of both types 1911/plastic)...Also, another antidodal eveidence point, I met one of the Police Captain from my township last week, for some adminitrative business. He walked in my house with his uniform and S.A. 1911 chambered in 45 acp in his holster. So both of us being 1911 guys we had a good conversation...He controlls the firarm choices for the cops around here. He says he mandates 45 acp but gives the potrol-guys a choice of platform/gun. Many on his force choose 1911s.

[checko 180]

Good info...I think alot of the stuff about what guns are more reliabale or not are "old wives tales"...As I stated above, I have found 1911s no better or worse then "plastic-pistols" once you take care of the magazine choice (I have a decent size sample of both types 1911/plastic)...Also, another antidodal eveidence point, I met one of the Police Captain from my township last week, for some adminitrative business. He walked in my house with his uniform and S.A. 1911 chambered in 45 acp in his holster. So both of us being 1911 guys we had a good conversation...He controlls the firarm choices for the cops around here. He says he mandates 45 acp but gives the potrol-guys a choice of platform/gun. Many on his force choose 1911s.

 

Very interesting. Can't say I've ever seen ant fuzz in my life carry a 1911.

[Shane45 807]

I believe Dover PD used to before they went to HK's. I don't know what they carry today. I believe some officers on Stafford carry a 1911. I CAN see why a department may not want one as the standard, but having the option is pretty progressive. Im betting the choice of a dept duty weapon is directly tied to the percieved minimum amount of rank and file training you can get away with based on the selection.

[2Alpha 6]

Get a 2011, all the benefits of the 1911 and all the capacity of the tuperware guns

[Shane45 807]

Actually 2Alpha, I think this is my next build!!!

 

[2Alpha 6]

Actually 2Alpha, I think this is my next build!!!

 

 

 

Matt builds a nice gun, but the wait is ridiculous.

[checko 180]

Get a 2011, all the benefits of the 1911 and all the capacity of the tuperware guns

 

I thought that was the FNX45?

[Jon 264]

 

Back on topic, please.