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gfl216

Off duty / CCW & extra ammo

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http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2012/02/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

 

"There were 17 total hits on his body including three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen," Gramins says. "Which means that even though Maddox was mortally wounded before the head shots, he was still able to engage me.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins says. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Gramins' inability to successfully place rounds in the early part of the engagement is readily understandable given both the spontaneous nature of the attack and the confined environment he'd found himself in. Still, he'd made the most out of suppressive fire.

 

That's 17 hits of .45 ACP.

 

That's the case the FBI did after the local LEO's claimed their HP bullets weren't working properly right?

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I brought up this very subject last September when I was carrying in Florida and put my extra Kel Tec magazine in my pocket.

 

I considered using an old cell phone-case to carry my extra mag.  Then I found this:

http://www.amazon.com/Safariland-Concealment-Magazine-Holder-123-18-2/dp/B002Q6GKPU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1X5QSL19E04G7&coliid=IFFV3R3TZCSAO

 

It looks like another cell phone pouch or knife holder.  I consider it an option.

 

Also note that I wear suits and sportcoats a lot.  Sometimes the Extra mag goes in a Remora magazine pouch on the weak side of my suit jacket.

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One of the most important reasons beyond the need to reload is  that most premature pistol stoppages  that are not operator induced can be directly traced to the magazine. Coupled with the fact that if you do engage,fire and once clear to safely do so (read threat neutralized) you always need to exchange magazines and get ready should the need arise. One final note regarding the BUG is that you should/can always bring the weapon in your hand back into the fight far quicker then it takes to draw another concealed weapon.  PROVIDED you still have extra ammo for the primary :)

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Holy crap! 2 guns off duty? Where do you live? Im only asking because I don't want to go there!

Its not that i live in a dangerous area but depending on situation and what im wearing its more conveinent to carry a BUG than a spare mag. Sometimes carrying a BUG in a pocket holster is more coveinent than to carry a spare mag in my waistband. The back up or spare mag is in case i run out of ammo or a malfunction in my primary carry gun. Hopefully ill never have to use them, but if i ever do ill be glad i have them

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Its not that i live in a dangerous area but depending on situation and what im wearing its more conveinent to carry a BUG than a spare mag. Sometimes carrying a BUG in a pocket holster is more coveinent than to carry a spare mag in my waistband. The back up or spare mag is in case i run out of ammo or a malfunction in my primary carry gun. Hopefully ill never have to use them, but if i ever do ill be glad i have them

Some will say say reloading is faster than drawing a second gun but I'm not going to debate that. You can set conditions where either one can win. Drawing a BUG is always faster than clearing a malfunction though.

 

There's another reason a BUG is a good idea. If something happens, you have a BUG, and you are with someone who is trained but not armed you can give that person one of your guns and you've made it a lot harder for the bad guys.

 

Someone mentioned guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who only carried one gun. That's true but I bet they had more than one magazine.

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Griz this is probably the first time I gotta disagree with you."Drawing a BUG is always faster than clearing a malfunction though".  Not that that means anything :)

Any arm in hand should be able to be cleared and back in the fight far quicker then dropping one,drawing and re-engaging the threat that is JMOP..... also not a fan of giving up my weapon primary or back up to someone else but that's just me.......

 

One of the great things about this forum is it gives us the opportunity to think about and discuss things like this.

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Too many variables for either statement to be an absolute. The question is how much time do you have to determine the reason for the stoppage before deciding how to proceed? If you don't know what the problem is with the gun, is it more prudent to get a gun that you know works in your hand RIGHT NOW, or to fiddle-fuck with the gun that went click and try to make it go bang in the middle of a gun fight?

 

If you set up your BUG the right way, it can absolutely be faster then a speed reload (depending on what you are reloading - is it a pistol where you can reload a magazine or a revolver that you are reloading from speed loaders, speed strips, or dump pouch/loose rounds?) or immediate/remedial malfunction clearing.

 

If you have a malfunction that completely downs the gun to the point where you are not clearing the issue short of an armorer, then the BUG is faster no matter how you carry it.

 

This also depends on your physical condition. If you are hurt and are down to one hand, the BUG option may be faster regardless of the reason for the stoppage or what kind of handgun you are carrying.

 

Also keep in mind that the "NY Reload" became popular (I know the practice has been around a lot longer than the NYPD) in a time where Police (and armed citizens) carried revolvers and reloaded from dump pouches. A "fast" reload took several seconds - drawing a second gun from and AIWB holster for 6 more shots took a second, maybe a second and a half - about the same amount of time as a moderately fast semi-auto reload.

 

Generally, I have found that with a pistol or revolver/speedloader combo, a straight up speed-reload or a malfunction that can be cleared with immediate action (type I or type II) is faster than drawing a BUG - considering you have the use of both hands and the time and wherewithall to realize that you have an empty gun or type I or type II malfunction. Keep in mind that this generalization has been made by watching/timing shooters on the square range where cotton all clouds float across an impossibly blue sky, over rivers of chocolate running past trees that give beer and NOT in the middle of a fur-ball fight for their life so... None of this may be true.

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"NOT in the middle of a fur-ball fight for their life so... None of this may be true". And there my friends lies the rub.

 

People always tell you that you will rise to the level of your training.... horse @#$% when rounds are flying you can only hope to be at 50% of your training level. which is why you need to train harder and never give up the fight JMOP.

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I believe the phrase you are looking for is:

 

You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to the level of your training.

It is all about the 4 levels of achievement and at what level you are at with each facet of your gun handling.

 

If you train to skin a BUG, that's what you will do when pressed under stress. If you train to reload or clear a malfunction that's what you will do. For example, if you are at the unconcious competence level on your reloads, you will have very little, if any, degradation in that skill under stress and that is what you will do, without thinking, when necessary. The ability to complete certain administrative tasks while under stress and without devoting any conscious thought to them allows you to concentrate on the new and unique problems you are facing right now and complete the "routine" tasks on a kind of autopilot setting you up for success.

 

The "You can expect a 50% degradation in skills" comment that is often bandied about deals with accuracy and is what The LAV uses as his standard for accuracy under fire. That is why he has such a high standard for accuracy. By studying AARs of shootings he is probably being a little generous.

 

You misinterpreted my statement when you took it out of context. You can not "Train" under realistic conditions because you will not have people shooting at you while you practice. We all conduct most of our training on the square range and we need to figure out what "side" of the BUG discussion we are on, then train for it. You won't find out of you are right until you are tested in the real world.

 

My statement was meant to get at the heart of the concept that while I see a lot of shooters, I can only observe what my shooters will do at the range. Unfortunately I won't be there if they ever get into it for real. My only meter of what works and what does not is how they perform at the range. I can tell you on the range that this is faster than that, or vice-versa, when the malfunctions are planned and purposefully set up. When reloads are a known quantity based on the drills at hand I can measure times and accuracy, when it is unexpected, unplanned, and for real, I can not, and neither can you.

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High:  "You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to the level of your training." No I meant in the heat of battle be it on the streets or in combat.

 

In a fire fight most people will be lucky to achieve something even close to the level of training my 50% was just an arbitrary number. Our job is to just be better trained than the next guy. 

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High: You will not riseto the occasion, you will default to the level of your training." No I meant in the heat of battle be it on the streets or in combat.

So did I. In combat, under stress, in the "heat of battle" you will not rise to the occasion and be a hero. You will default to your level of training and perform those actions. I have seen security camera videos of martial arts guys give weapons back to bad guys after taking it from them - because that is how they conduct their repetitive training drills. I have read AARs of guys trying repeatedly to tap rack assess an empty gun and not go to a reload because they trained to clear malfunction with every click.

 

In a fire fight most people will be lucky to achieve something even close to the level of training my 50% was just an arbitrary number. Our job is to just be better trained than the next guy.

My personal goal is to be a better shooter today than I was yesterday. My job is to make sure than no man's ghost says that my training failed him.

 

I see plenty of 75% to even 100% hits on target during deadly force encounters. It is possible and a realistic goal, but planning for an average of 50% reduction in accuracy is prudent. Train harder now so the 50% is still acceptable.

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High: just for the record I am not talking  about training forums or videos. When real bullets fly your brain short circuits the training then kicks in and helps you get beyond that point of fight or flight.

 

We can never train for that as we cannot actually simulate real combat, simunitions come close but when you know the rounds impacting are wax or what not it's just not the same.

 

Good luck with your training and it sounds like you give the people you train your full measure. Be safe

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 High;

 

No I must be confused as I did not realize that you were referring to training applications actually used in combat and or street survival forgive my ignorance.

 

I only mentioned the video only as you stated CCTV coverage as it related to a martial artist un-arming and individual(bad guy).

 

PS I am not trying to pi$$in your ear or start a fight........

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No worries brother. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page. And for the record, I think this is a great discussion.

 

I am responsible to train 25 municipal Police officers, and 30 Officers assigned to a County SWAT shooters. Everything that I teach has a real-world component and is grounded in reality to the best of my abilities considering real world training restrictions.

 

While the Square Range leaves a lot to be desired and in no way shape or form simulates real-world deadly forcing encounters, it is, unfortunately, the only metric we have to be able to measure our students abilities and proficiency. The best way to take full advantage of the limited training opportunities afforded by the square range is to base our training curriculum on the findings of after action reports, real-world shootings, our limited first hand experiences, the knowledge of other reputable trainers with real world experience, and any info we can beg borrow or steal regarding other deadly forcing encounters.

 

Then if we can get our shooters to the unconscious-competence level in the areas of gunfighting that we deem most relevant to winning (note: not just surviving) a deadly force encounter we are ahead of the curve and can sleep soundly knowing we did all we could to prepare our people for the worst day of their lives.

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I carry a 5 shot revolver off duty and do not take extra ammo. 

 

If its my day to go, then there is nothing I can do about it.

 That's about the stupidest thing i;ve read on here...if that's the case, then dont carry at all... 

 

When i carried a Glock O/d i always had one extra mag, with the 1911, i carry 2, if i'm carrying a revolver then a couple of moon-clips

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