mipafox 438 Posted August 3, 2013 LOL. Yeah, we were doing a raid to get a baby fawn. ROFL!!! I heard that story Thanks for the data point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 5, 2013 Ooooooooooooh..... Somebody is a shill for FN or really has their ego wrapped up in this crappy round... They came all the way to this forum, registered as a user, and posted 3 whole posts of "cut and paste" to tell us we are wrong and guys I know are liars. 5.7x28 has been around for a quarter of a century. If it was so great, why is it not in the holster of every SOF soldier and Cop out there? I know, because it sucks worse than all the other defensive caliber handgun rounds do at stopping threats, that's why. ETA- Micromag, that is some funny stuff! Well done Every forum has its own Armchair Operator. It appears that High Exposure fills that role here. I won't be long in this thread, but I feel compelled to correct a bit of misinformation being spewed about. The follow is just some data that I have saved. I really don't have the patience to organize it all. Some will be redundant. Regardless, it is more than enough to disarm the witless local Armchair G.I. Regarding use in the field: Columbia, MO cycle officers are issued both the Five-seveN and the P90. There are quite a few large departments using either the Five-seveN or the P90; most of them in SWAT-type roles, yes, but the fact remains that quite a few large departments use the weapons on a somewhat regular basis. Wikipedia lists users for the Five-seveN and P90: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven#Users Note that there are reference lists, and external sources are cited for each individual user in the lists, so the information isn't unsourced. http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...cal-firepower/ S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division. “I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.” http://web.archive.org/web/2002090301424...4c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver) http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered) The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+. The Five-seveN/P90 are currently used in 40+ countries and by hundreds of law enforcement agencies in the United States. - The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. - Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find. - The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either." - Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation. - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons. - Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived. - I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there." - Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject. - I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything. http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1442 Swat units as well as SF units around the world use the 5.7 FN weapons. They see some value in the round. 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SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 5, 2013 LOL. Yeah, we were doing a raid to get a baby fawn. I think it was Washington Twp in Gloucester County that carried the FN 5.7 as a duty gun loaded with SS109 at the time I think - maybe 6 or 8 years ago. They get a lot of deers hit by motor vehicles that need to be put down, so they would use the carcass as an impromptu ballistics lab. A head shot on the already hurt and immobile animal generally did the trick. Then a shot or two to different parts of the carcass. They found that the round had dismal penetration (just a few inches if I remember) and left a large but very shallow wound. (The "Terminal" in Terminal ballistics refers to the effects of the bullet after it strikes something at the end/terminus of its flight path. In this case "Terminal" does not refer to the rounds "death power") Just a few inches of penetration huh? LMFAO! You are obviously a troll, there is no way you could be that ignorant on purpose. There are numerous 5.7x28mm loads currently available that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example, this random handload expanded and penetrated 14-15 inches in three tests done by Brassfetcher in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3271/shot0301.jpg Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 670 ft-lbs and 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round: It was the general opinion of three physicians-two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive an S4 torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room- and even then it would be at best a toss up." -Dr. JD Brown As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target. Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 5, 2013 i'm probably done posting in this thread unless somebody has some legitimate specific questions about the caliber. I have a massive repository of data on it which has been collected over the years convincing me that the 5.7 pistol is just as good - if not better - when you consider armor penetration, than all the other common pistol calibers. Remember, a pistol should only be used until you can get back to your rifle. There are no pistol (or rifle for that matter) death rays. To drop (see: stopping power) an attacker, a shot must be made to the CNS or he/she must choose to give up the fight. The human body can withstand many shots of all pistols (and many rifle) calibers - including shots to the heart. Anybody that tells you that a .45 is better than a 9mm, or this caliber is better than that caliber in STOPPING a threat, should immediately be labeled an Internet Commando and the rest of what comes out of their keyboard should be taken with a grain of salt. Anybody with experience in live shootings and forensic pathology understand well that what kills the body and what immediately stops the body are not one and the same. Only one thing will immediately stop a threat; a shot to the CNS which requires aim (or lots of shots), and sufficient penetration. As far as what can kill someone; those possibilities are endless and really of no concern. What is of concern is what the attacker does to you after they receive the fatal injury, and before they bleed out/pass out. No caliber can solve that dilemma. It all comes down to shot placement. So, chose a pistol you feel comfortable with and that allows you to make the most accurate shot possible. For me the Five-seveN is the most accurate gun I have ever shot and is the fastest gun I have ever shot accurately multiple times in a row. it's basically a laser. Also, the fact that I carry 21 rounds and have the ability to defeat any soft body armor in existence gives me just a little bit more confidence. Stay safe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted August 5, 2013 Gecko45? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted August 5, 2013 Gecko45? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta That's funny!I had the same thought! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 264 Posted August 5, 2013 Gecko45? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) I can't wrap my head around how the same person wrote all 6 posts. On one hand (posts 21-23, 32 & 33) the 5.7 is a veritable death ray bringing the good word to all who are unlucky enough to have it fired at them in anger. Then in post 34 it is "nothing is guaranteed", "all pistol rounds suck", "placement over caliber", yada yada yada... ETA: Also, none of those links in his posts are active - except for those directing you to that bastion of accurate truth known as Wikipedia. Also, it looks like most of the info he posted is cut and paste from FiveseveNForums.com and some from 2008 or so. The real funny part, at least to me, is that even after all the BS in the other 5 posts, Speedkillz's last post - #34 - I agree with almost 100%. Edited August 5, 2013 by High Exposure Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted August 5, 2013 LoL.. sorry but this thread has easy targets up and down it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted August 5, 2013 The Five-seveN pistol is the lightest, highest capacity pistol you will probably ever fire. It has a huge muzzle blast, is as loud as a 10mm, and always gets attention at the range. While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game. Recoil is quite a bit less than 9mm, 5.7 ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, and with an inch and a half mag extension you can have 31 shots at your disposal. Fast and accurate follow up shots is the Five-seveN's ace in the hole. Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 670 ft-lbs and 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round: Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporeal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol: The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture). The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart. -- ("8pt 182 lb shot with fn5-7 at 70 m, with burris fastfire. ss197 ammo went through ribs to expand and take out both lungs and heart ...instant kill!!!!) More hunting data... anyhow Rifle season for deer opened up on sat. i was working so i missed sat but i made it out on sunday. nada. well monday was the charm. i got a medium doe with my PS90. 35-45 yards away. used SS197. shot her in the chest. double lung. she walked 10-15 paced and that was it. i found the round just under the skin on the opposite side. it had also passed through her shoulder. it missed her ribs and other bones as far as i can tell right now then as i was cleaning her, a medium buck walked by. i used my new (got it friday the 18th) Colt 45 special combat govt. i used my reloads. 230gr JHP rounds. he was 30-40 yards away. again, a double lung shot. he walked about 12-15 paces and died. i could not believe that while i was cleaning one another walked on by. now for the fun part. i have not found the 45 acp round yet. it passes through and may have hit the flat part of his shoulder. i found a very small exit hole in his outer fur. the holes on the inside of the rib cage were not all that big. the 5.7x28 round was a different story. it passes through the body cavity and through the muscle of her shoulder. it stopped just below the skin/fur. the hole on both sides of the rib cage were 2-3 times bigger than the 45acp holes. the 5.7 round holes were probably like 2-2.5 inches in diameter. i shot a couple of quick snaps and used a quarter for size. the holes are 9 o'clock in one photo and 11 o'clock in another...between the ribs photos here: http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723 i found three pieces of the SS197 round. i found all three pieces in roughly the same spot. a very interesting day. i will get more photos after we get the skins off. i will get better measurements and see if i can find the 45 round. please see these photos for the measurements of the 3 pieces from the 5.7 round. http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723 eddie God damnit SpeedKilz or should I say Penetrator http://forums.officer.com/t174587-3/ or FN Nasty http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-493247.html or GOFA57ORG0H0ME http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?69507-FN-FiveSeven-USG-5.7X28-Your-Comments/page2 All copy and pastes of your posts different forums. I reckon you stumbled upon us since you only joined less than a week after the 5.7 bashing had started.. Probably searched something to the likes "is the 5.7 a good handgun" and went crusading to defend your home team. Not that I dont appreciate a good debate, but your response is "canned" from other sites just to support your own conclusions. I do not take either side in the 5.7 pro/anti debate, but im not feeling your joining just to be a FN Crusader.. I wave goodbye the only way I was ever taught growing up in the garden state... Good day sir or madam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted August 5, 2013 Quick rundown of small caliber PDW type ammo - 5.7 and 4.6 by Dr. Gary Roberts, arguably the number 1 guy out there today that is dealing with terminal ballistics from a gunfighting perspective. Granted this is a pistol thread and most of this write up deals with PDWs (P90/MP7). Hopefully, the realization the lack of ability of this round even with the advantages of the longer barrel/higher velocity, full auto capability and greater control afforded by a PDW vs a pistol is not overlooked. If it is this poor of a performer in a PDW, how much worse is it in a pistol? 10/13/11 Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play. Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military: quote: ”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.” Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm: quote: ”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.” A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm FN P90's has written the following--note that his comments equally apply to the 4.6 mm MP7: quote: ”The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm or other small caliber PDW systems” - 30 P90's for five years - 100,000 rounds per year through those weapons - very reliable weapon - very user friendly - very easy to shoot - everyone happy - three OIS's later and some unbelievably poor terminal balistic performace we dropped them...quickly. - 22+ OIS shootings using AR-15's with .223...everyone happy (except the 21 dead bad guys)." As a result of poor terminal performance, a large Federal agency (SS) is also no longer running P90’s like they used to Likewise, some military units that tried small caliber PDW's in combat are procuring other options, like 9" .300 Blackout uppers to run on M4 lowers. When a civilian LE agency chooses a full-auto system, significantly more time is needed for training. This increases costs, both in the amount of ammunition necessary to purchase, as well as the need to pay officers for increased time in training, rather than being in the field. Instead of a 1-5 shot NSR with an AR15 based system, with an MP7 each officer is now going to be routinely shooting 15-20+ rounds into each target both in training and in actual OIS incidents, thus the amount of ammo expended is going to be 4 times what would be used with an AR15 based system shooting any common CQB caliber like 5.56 mm, .300 Blackout, 6.8mm, or even 7.62x51mm. How is an LE agency going to afford four times more training ammo for a weapon system like the MP7 that needs to be always shot full auto and whose ammo is more expensive than other common calibers? In the civilian realm, how is an LE agency going to explain to their Admin and media why they are now needing to shoot every suspect 15-20+ times? In addition, when you are having to shoot 15-20 rounds full-auto at every target, there is a higher likelihood that some of those rounds may miss the target; how is an LE agency going to handle the liability from the potential increased number of missed shots that can occur with a system that needs to be used full-auto like a "fire hose" in order to offer adequate incapacitation of threats? With the data now available, a U.S. LE agency would have to be woefully ignorant or colossally stupid to purchase the MP7 (or P90) for SWAT use given the numerous weapon systems available for LE SWAT/CQB use that are both better and more cost effective than small caliber PDW's. If SBR's are desired, consider a 10-12" 5.56 mm using properly selected good quality barrier blind ammunition, 8-12" .300 Blackout uppers when appropriate LE ammo is finally released, even better get 8-12" 6.8 mm's uppers, or if you want to have the best terminal performance go with the new group of 16" .308 rifles like the KAC SR25 EMC, LaRue Predatar (or OBR for precision use), or the FN Mk17/SCAR-H using appropriate ammunition. Here is the best part.... Guys that like the 5.7 platform HATE Doc. Roberts and will do everything in their power to discredit his findings with character assassination, denigration of his professions (dentist/surgeon/Naval Officer/LEO), bad science, and false claims of real world use regardless of his renown in the field of ballistics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 5, 2013 I can't wrap my head around how the same person wrote all 6 posts. On one hand (posts 21-23, 32 & 33) the 5.7 is a veritable death ray bringing the good word to all who are unlucky enough to have it fired at them in anger. Then in post 34 it is "nothing is guaranteed", "all pistol rounds suck", "placement over caliber", yada yada yada...ETA: Also, none of those links in his posts are active - except for those directing you to that bastion of accurate truth known as Wikipedia.Also, it looks like most of the info he posted is cut and paste from FiveseveNForums.com and some from 2008 or so.The real funny part, at least to me, is that even after all the BS in the other 5 posts, Speedkillz's last post - #34 - I agree with almost 100%. Yeah, most of the stuff was just copy/paste so it might seem kind of convoluted with regards to authorship. Nevertheless it is all factual and easily referenced (with a little googling if the links are dead). Now, the multitude of quotes are obviously just personal accounts with the weapon. Alone they would be rather worthless, but in number they start to form a pattern don't ya think? It was by chance that I stumbled upon this forum while searching for something 5.7 specific. I haven't participated in a friendly 5.7 debate in a loooong time. It seems like the hardcore detractors, who almost seem to be on a religious mission to defame the platform, have become extinct. They have been made to look foolish and desperate in the past so many times I think they've finally given up. Then you have to take into consideration the enormous popularity of the platform over the last few years with every 5.7 weapon selling out everywhere until the prices have become insane and the ammo has all but dried up. There really isn't much left to say on the 5.7, the market has clearly spoken. Now, as soon as ammo supply catches up with all the new 5.7 owners, we can all be happy again. Do you know that several types of high-performance 5.7 rounds I have in my possession were going for upwards of 10.00 a round a few months ago? Craaaazy. Again, don't let my facts of the 5.7 cause you to believe that your 9mm or .45ACP is now obsolete. All common pistol calibers are good choices for self-defense... well... that is... unless you come up against body armor. Then nothing compares to the Five-seveN - period. The good thing is, while there are hundreds of reports of criminals using body armor over the last couple years, it wouldn't be considered commonplace yet. There are other advantages of the Five-seveN that no other pistols shares and that is capacity coupled with weight. I literally have walked out of the house without my gun in my holster it is so light. That is an amazing fact when you consider that the Five-seveN is about the same size as a full-size 1911. It's so light it feels like the gun is missing something. When you conceal carry for long periods of time and enjoy having your pants around your waist and not your ankles, the Five-seveN is an excellent choice. I know I sound partial to the 5.7 pistol - and I am. The longer you own this thing (I have been carrying mine for over 2 years), the more you understand how "perfect" it really is. Everybody has a gun they love, but the Five-seveN is unique for a lot of reasons. Quick rundown of small caliber PDW type ammo - 5.7 and 4.6 by Dr. Gary Roberts, arguably the number 1 guy out there today that is dealing with terminal ballistics from a gunfighting perspective. Granted this is a pistol thread and most of this write up deals with PDWs (P90/MP7). Hopefully, the realization the lack of ability of this round even with the advantages of the longer barrel/higher velocity, full auto capability and greater control afforded by a PDW vs a pistol is not overlooked. If it is this poor of a performer in a PDW, how much worse is it in a pistol?Here is the best part.... Guys that like the 5.7 platform HATE Doc. Roberts and will do everything in their power to discredit his findings with character assassination, denigration of his professions (dentist/surgeon/Naval Officer/LEO), bad science, and false claims of real world use regardless of his renown in the field of ballistics. Are you trying to bait me into disparaging the good tooth docs name? Did you hear that he has left his forum where he has been protected all these years against public challenges to his hysterical logic on the 5.7 platform? I wonder what happened... perhaps the doc became too insane for the asylum? Seriously though, this guy has well-documented issues with the 5.7 and they aren't rooted in science. I won't repaste all the info on his ludicrous behavior in the past with regards to the 5.7; like his loony and desperate comments right after Fort Hood that were almost immediately proven false much to his embarrassment, or his continued citation of data on the 5.7 involving a prototype round that is almost 20 years old and never went into production, or his lack of "finding the time" to test new 5.7 ammo he has been given for free............ "Doc" just doesn't like the 5.7 for his own personal reasons (probably like you) and that is fine except for the fact that he attempts to portray himself as a ballistics scientist which of course would require unbiased practices and the scientific method as the cornerstone of his testing. Both of which he fails to employ when it comes to the 5.7. Probably the best data we have on the 5.7's effectiveness against human targets is the horrific Fort Hood tragedy. I have volumes of data and personal testimony from the people involved in that tragedy showing the 5.7 performed nearly exactly the same as other pistol shootings recorded in the FBI database EXCEPT for one thing... the immense volume of fire that Hasan was able to rain down on his victims. Volume of fire is the 5.7's forte'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted August 5, 2013 Thought of was ironic he had 5 posts or so and had enough bravado to call others on the board "trolls" or "armchair operators" :rotfl: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 5, 2013 ”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:quote:”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.” Just a couple comments on the oft repeated OPINIONS of Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb on the 5.7: These two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings) -- their opinions have been formed by what they have read or heard about.. hardly an "expert" opinion worth repeating. If you want to take someone's word for how a weapon performs in a shooting, perhaps you should start with somebody that has actually used the weapon in a shooting. That removes a lot of the misinformation and agendas that often are accompanied with a platform someone doesn't like. Here is a verifiable account from an expert in the field who has been involved in a REAL shooting with the P90: http://forum.rap4.com/index.php?topic=3699.55;wap2 I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. <snip> The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. <snip> If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. -- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below) http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger." By the way.... read the following quote again ”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.” Have you ever heard anything more idiotic and fictional in your life? "hose the suspect down", "sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso"??? LMFAO That whole statement flies in the face of any legitimate tactical methodology much less an understanding of forensic pathology. The main advantage of the 4.5 or 5.7 is the immense speed AND ACCURACY of which you can deliver a round. Why on God's green earth would you "hose down" a target with a gun that has no recoil? You aim center mass, depress the trigger for one second (that's 15 rounds flying like a laser at your POA) and watch the bad guy drop. A shot to the CNS is a shot to the CNS. Why do you think all the specialists in the sand box say they love the 4.6? It's because they can run in a house and drill a bad guy in the head or chest in a fraction of a second with half a dozen rounds or so - dropping the bad guy before he even knows he's hit. It's all about accuracy, speed, and controllability with these weapons. The comments about "hosing down until the brain figures out", "running out of bullets" (the P90 carries 50 btw) sound like they were made by an amateur, or a child, or both. Certainly someone that has played a bit too much Call of Duty with little or no real life CQB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted August 5, 2013 Russia just came out with a Five-EIGHT. It's better than the Five Seven because the Ruskies designed it to do the tumble-oes and the ammo is cheap and corrosive . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted August 5, 2013 ”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.” Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm: quote: ”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.” Just a couple comments on the oft repeated OPINIONS of Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb on the 5.7: These two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings) -- their opinions have been formed by what they have read or heard about.. hardly an "expert" opinion worth repeating. If you want to take someone's word for how a weapon performs in a shooting, perhaps you should start with somebody that has actually used the weapon in a shooting. That removes a lot of the misinformation and agendas that often are accompanied with a platform someone doesn't like. Here is a verifiable account from an expert in the field who has been involved in a REAL shooting with the P90: http://forum.rap4.com/index.php?topic=3699.55;wap2 You take quotes from two combat veterans with multiple years of real world experience, say they know nothing, then direct us to a paintball forum????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted August 5, 2013 This is what I call "post gun buy stress disorder". It happens after you buy a $1300 gun that takes $1 a round ammo and then realize you bought a weapon that won't do what you need it to do. So, you grasp at straws and rage against all who would deign to say that your new piece is inferior. You start debating esoteric minutae about weight and recoil (subjective), start calling any evidence that is contrary to what you believe lies, not-scientific, rumor. Then you start looking for instances, any instances, even if they don't really apply/compare, where the weapon/caliber was used and it worked, even a little to rest your case. SK, I bet you secretly carry a 9mm... Yeah, most of the stuff was just copy/paste so it might seem kind of convoluted with regards to authorship. Nevertheless it is all factual and easily referenced (with a little googling if the links are dead). Now, the multitude of quotes are obviously just personal accounts with the weapon. Alone they would be rather worthless, but in number they start to form a pattern don't ya think? So, I should post a list of all the times a non 5.7 round put someone down? Or should I just put up a list of the times the 5.7 performed poorly? That would make quite a pattern don't ya think? It was by chance that I stumbled upon this forum while searching for something 5.7 specific. I haven't participated in a friendly 5.7 debate in a loooong time. It seems like the hardcore detractors, who almost seem to be on a religious mission to defame the platform, have become extinct. They have been made to look foolish and desperate in the past so many times I think they've finally given up. I think you are confusing who is ending up looking foolish and desperate in your "debates"... Just sayin' Then you have to take into consideration the enormous popularity of the platform over the last few years with every 5.7 weapon selling out everywhere until the prices have become insane and the ammo has all but dried up. There really isn't much left to say on the 5.7, the market has clearly spoken. Now, as soon as ammo supply catches up with all the new 5.7 owners, we can all be happy again. Do you know that several types of high-performance 5.7 rounds I have in my possession were going for upwards of 10.00 a round a few months ago? Craaaazy. What popularity? Because there is no ammo for it it is the bees knees and everyone wants one? Look around, every caliber out there is currently in short supply. Glock is 1.5 million units behind in production and the last time I checked, they don't even make a 5.7 offering. In fact, no one does.... In my job, that is what I call a clue. A cartridge that has been around for 25 years and only one reputable company makes a gun to shoot it. Yeah, must be a real awesome round... Again, don't let my facts of the 5.7 cause you to believe that your 9mm or .45ACP is now obsolete. All common pistol calibers are good choices for self-defense... well... that is... unless you come up against body armor. Then nothing compares to the Five-seveN - period. The good thing is, while there are hundreds of reports of criminals using body armor over the last couple years, it wouldn't be considered commonplace yet. Oh, these are facts? Why don't you say so? I didn't realize that these were not cut and pasted articles from a myriad of sources. I didn't know you vetted all of them. I didn't know that you vouch or the voracity of everyone's statements. Oh, wait, who are you again? Why should I listen to you? What have you done? Who have you taught? Who have you shot with a 5.7? Why should I give your "opinion" any more thought than I would the ravings of a 12 year old on an X-Box headset playing COD? And don't even bring up the stupid BA argument.... Ooooh, it offers rounds that will penetrate BA, if you can get them. You can also get 9mm rounds that zip soft BA too. In fact all rounds can bring down a guy wearing body armor - Shoot where the armor isn't or get a rifle. There are other advantages of the Five-seveN that no other pistols shares and that is capacity coupled with weight. I literally have walked out of the house without my gun in my holster it is so light. That is an amazing fact when you consider that the Five-seveN is about the same size as a full-size 1911. It's so light it feels like the gun is missing something. When you conceal carry for long periods of time and enjoy having your pants around your waist and not your ankles, the Five-seveN is an excellent choice. I carry a full size pistol all the time. Usually it is a Glock 35 or a Glock 22, sometimes a Glock 23 and always at least 1 extra mag. It is not uncomfortable at all, it is not heavy. I also wear a belt designed to carry a gun, a well made holster and clothes that fit. I have never, ever had my pants fall down. The fact that you have left your home with an empty hoster speaks more to your mindset being lacking than any lightweight advantage of a FiveseveN pistol. I know I sound partial to the 5.7 pistol - and I am. The longer you own this thing (I have been carrying mine for over 2 years), the more you understand how "perfect" it really is. Everybody has a gun they love, but the Five-seveN is unique for a lot of reasons. Good for you. I am glad you love it. You are a big boy, and you get to choose what to hang your hat on. I hope you never have to use it and if you do, I hope it works as good as you think it will. I for one, am not impressed with the platform, the round, or your argument. I will rely on a known quantity. All pistol rounds suck. Some (.22, .25, .32, 5.7) suck more than others. Here is the best part.... Guys that like the 5.7 platform HATE Doc. Roberts and will do everything in their power to discredit his findings with character assassination, denigration of his professions (dentist/surgeon/Naval Officer/LEO), bad science, and false claims of real world use regardless of his renown in the field of ballistics. Are you trying to bait me into disparaging the good tooth docs name? Did you hear that he has left his forum where he has been protected all these years against public challenges to his hysterical logic on the 5.7 platform? I wonder what happened... perhaps the doc became too insane for the asylum? Seriously though, this guy has well-documented issues with the 5.7 and they aren't rooted in science. I won't repaste all the info on his ludicrous behavior in the past with regards to the 5.7; like his loony and desperate comments right after Fort Hood that were almost immediately proven false much to his embarrassment, or his continued citation of data on the 5.7 involving a prototype round that is almost 20 years old and never went into production, or his lack of "finding the time" to test new 5.7 ammo he has been given for free............ "Doc" just doesn't like the 5.7 for his own personal reasons (probably like you) and that is fine except for the fact that he attempts to portray himself as a ballistics scientist which of course would require unbiased practices and the scientific method as the cornerstone of his testing. Both of which he fails to employ when it comes to the 5.7. I told ya!!! :rofl: Oh and I know exactly (or as exactly as I can, not being directly involved) what happened and it had absolutely jack & s#it to do with the 5.7 round. So tell me about your scientific method and ballistics testing experience. Also, what is Doc Roberts' agenda against the 5.7 round and why did he develop this bias? Why would he test everything else correctly, but skew 5.7 data? I am intrigued... Probably the best data we have on the 5.7's effectiveness against human targets is the horrific Fort Hood tragedy. I have volumes of data and personal testimony from the people involved in that tragedy showing the 5.7 performed nearly exactly the same as other pistol shootings recorded in the FBI database EXCEPT for one thing... the immense volume of fire that Hasan was able to rain down on his victims. Volume of fire is the 5.7's forte'. So now, the round is no better that anything else. It is the volume of fire that made the difference? So, which is it? Anyone who is trained and has a target array like he did could do what he did and probably be even more effective with a 9mm, .40, or .45. Also, please enlighten me how engaging unarmed people that are attempting to flee compares in the slightest with putting down an determined and armed attacker? It is apples to horse apples.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,662 Posted August 5, 2013 ”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.” Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm: ”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.” Just a couple comments on the oft repeated OPINIONS of Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb on the 5.7: These two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings) -- their opinions have been formed by what they have read or heard about.. hardly an "expert" opinion worth repeating.Pat is a very good friend of mine, and Kyle is an acquaintance. I find it amusing that two men with careers as storied and experienced as theirs are reduced to being inexperienced fools in the art of gunfighting, or the capabilities of weapon systems out there by you. So killer, what have you done? What makes your opinion on the 5.7 more relevant than those guys? What, you carry one for self defense? You read about it on the internets? What more than "what you have read or heard about" is your worthless opinion based on? Have you used a 5.7 caliber weapon operationally? Have you smoked any fools with a 5.7? With anything? If you want to take someone's word for how a weapon performs in a shooting, perhaps you should start with somebody that has actually used the weapon in a shooting. That removes a lot of the misinformation and agendas that often are accompanied with a platform someone doesn't like.I did start with someone that has used the weapon in a shooting, or can't you remember after all the bs you have posted. According to them, it "Sucked. Giant. Dog. Balls." I also tested the weapon for my agency. In my opinion, and the opinion of my fellow range staff, it also "Sucked. Giant. Dog. Balls." But that didn't fit within your perception of reality so you basically called my buddy (and me) a liar. Here is a verifiable account from an expert in the field who has been involved in a REAL shooting with the P90: http://forum.rap4.com/index.php?topic=3699.55;wap2 I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. <snip> The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. <snip> If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. -- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below) http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."I read Sandy's post - on an airsoft forum nonetheless It is rife with BS and contradictions: "The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm AND 5.7mm rounds" - well which was it, the 5.56 or the 5.7 that did the job? "no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned." - 'no more' indicates that it has happens more than once in the past and once should be reason enough to be thrown off a SWAT team alone. I know it would get me kicked off mine and I know I am not making entry with someone that can't tell what condition his weapon is in. "The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo." - Really? "If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready." - I do spend time a lot of time as a SWAT Cop, and I wouldn't take a P90 unless that was the only choice. (Also, guys that call themselves "operators" are ghey. They aren't surgeons and they don't answer phones.) Also, I have used the Wallbanger in training. It almost killed (decapitated) my team mate. We are now in the process with fighting with Safariland to return it. If he developed that monstrosity, I want nothing to do with anything he recommends. From one SWAT guy to another, I have no problems saying that. By the way.... read the following quote again Have you ever heard anything more idiotic and fictional in your life? "hose the suspect down", "sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso"??? LMFAO That whole statement flies in the face of any legitimate tactical methodology much less an understanding of forensic pathology. The main advantage of the 4.5 or 5.7 is the immense speed AND ACCURACY of which you can deliver a round. Why on God's green earth would you "hose down" a target with a gun that has no recoil? You aim center mass, depress the trigger for one second (that's 15 rounds flying like a laser at your POA) and watch the bad guy drop. A shot to the CNS is a shot to the CNS. Why do you think all the specialists in the sand box say they love the 4.6? It's because they can run in a house and drill a bad guy in the head or chest in a fraction of a second with half a dozen rounds or so - dropping the bad guy before he even knows he's hit. It's all about accuracy, speed, and controllability with these weapons. The comments about "hosing down until the brain figures out", "running out of bullets" (the P90 carries 50 btw) sound like they were made by an amateur, or a child, or both. Certainly someone that has played a bit too much Call of Duty with little or no real life CQB. I know the capacity of the P90. And despite you calling me an "Armchair Operator" I also know a thing or two about CQB and FISHing. With a weapon that shoots such tiny and ineffective bullets that fast, that sounds like a viable TTP to neutralize a threat when saddled with that albatross. What "specialists" in the sandbox are you referring to? The 4.6 has a niche and it performs well there, but other than that one small mission, it is not preferred. By the way, you are calling out Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb, then talking about "real CQB". So, what have you done? How much "real life" CQB have you participated in? How many times have you been FISHing for real? What gives you the chops to start making comments like that? "You aim center mass, depress the trigger for one second (that's 15 rounds flying like a laser at your POA) and watch the bad guy drop" - 'like a laser' comment aside - So 15 rounds to get the job done is OK? In a 50 round mag that is almost a third of your ammo. So the need to expend 33% of your weapons capacity to drop one bad guy is not just acceptable but preferable? Wow, I sure am glad you aren't selecting the weapons I have to carry... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Patrick 638 Posted August 5, 2013 This thread sucks I want my money back This signature exceeds the 15 character capacity Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Urban Grunt 44 Posted August 5, 2013 .....another thread f**ked Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 6, 2013 This is what I call "post gun buy stress disorder". It happens after you buy a $1300 gun that takes $1 a round ammo and then realize you bought a weapon that won't do what you need it to do. So, you grasp at straws and rage against all who would deign to say that your new piece is inferior. You start debating esoteric minutae about weight and recoil (subjective), start calling any evidence that is contrary to what you believe lies, not-scientific, rumor. Then you start looking for instances, any instances, even if they don't really apply/compare, where the weapon/caliber was used and it worked, even a little to rest your case. SK, I bet you secretly carry a 9mm... I didn't pay 1300 for my Five-seveN. I didn't even pay a grand. I also bought my ammo back when it was around 40 cents a round. I'm sure the prices will come back down. So, I should post a list of all the times a non 5.7 round put someone down? Or should I just put up a list of the times the 5.7 performed poorly? That would make quite a pattern don't ya think? I have never heard of a personal account of the Five-seveN doing anything other than what a 9mm, .40, or 45ACP will do.. expect when it comes to body armor. Then of course there is no comparison. I have heard a couple continually recycled stories from Armchair Operators about the round causing bad guys to cry, "stop shooting me with that thing." Those hilarious accounts were proven to be complete fabrications. I think you are confusing who is ending up looking foolish and desperate in your "debates"... Just sayin' Perhaps. I certainly am not giving it my full effort here. I just wanted to drop a pile of facts on the issue in a thread authored by someone that had a legitimate question. In every Five-seveN forum, there is always Tactical Lazyboy Specialist who scoffs and argues at the 5.7 platform. The thread eventually goes to shit, but there is useful information that is passed (on my part) and I am often thanked for my data points. I haven't seen one fact posted by you yet. All I have seen is the same, tired old opinion, of a couple vets that haven't even shot the damn thing... LOL What popularity? Because there is no ammo for it it is the bees knees and everyone wants one? Look around, every caliber out there is currently in short supply. Glock is 1.5 million units behind in production and the last time I checked, they don't even make a 5.7 offering. In fact, no one does.... In my job, that is what I call a clue. A cartridge that has been around for 25 years and only one reputable company makes a gun to shoot it. Yeah, must be a real awesome round... The 5.7 platform is experiencing extreme popularity considering it's production is carefully controlled by FNH. I was talking to my buddy the other day about how the forums have changed dramatically with respect to the discussions about the 5.7. There's very little hostility towards it anymore. That's why I was surprised when I saw your comments in here. You are like a blast from the past, regurgitating old stories that have been long since put in the fiction file. I think the people who have fought to maintain the belief that their 9, 40, or 45 is the only way, have finally come to the conclusion that the 5.7 is here to stay and is loved by many, many people. Oh, these are facts? Why don't you say so? I didn't realize that these were not cut and pasted articles from a myriad of sources. I didn't know you vetted all of them. I didn't know that you vouch or the voracity of everyone's statements. Oh, wait, who are you again? Why should I listen to you? What have you done? Who have you taught? Who have you shot with a 5.7? Why should I give your "opinion" any more thought than I would the ravings of a 12 year old on an X-Box headset playing COD? You shouldn't give my opinion any value at all. You should give the opinion of others who have used it in real life. Opinions that can be documented and verified. Now stories about a couple vets who think it sucks and haven't even shot it. And don't even bring up the stupid BA argument.... Ooooh, it offers rounds that will penetrate BA, if you can get them. You can also get 9mm rounds that zip soft BA too. In fact all rounds can bring down a guy wearing body armor - Shoot where the armor isn't or get a rifle. No you can't get 9mm rounds that penetrate body armor. At least the majority of the world can't. There are some prototypes out there, but they are far from being as available as 5.7 ammo. I carry a full size pistol all the time. Usually it is a Glock 35 or a Glock 22, sometimes a Glock 23 and always at least 1 extra mag. It is not uncomfortable at all, it is not heavy. I also wear a belt designed to carry a gun, a well made holster and clothes that fit. I have never, ever had my pants fall down. The fact that you have left your home with an empty hoster speaks more to your mindset being lacking than any lightweight advantage of a FiveseveN pistol. I guess my mindset could be lacking, or the gun could just be so damn light that I don't notice it being in or out of my holster. I think the majority of unbiased folks reading this thread would love to experience what that feels like. Good for you. I am glad you love it. You are a big boy, and you get to choose what to hang your hat on. I hope you never have to use it and if you do, I hope it works as good as you think it will. I for one, am not impressed with the platform, the round, or your argument. I will rely on a known quantity. All pistol rounds suck. Some (.22, .25, .32, 5.7) suck more than others. I told ya!!! :rofl: Oh and I know exactly (or as exactly as I can, not being directly involved) what happened and it had absolutely jack & s#it to do with the 5.7 round. So tell me about your scientific method and ballistics testing experience. Also, what is Doc Roberts' agenda against the 5.7 round and why did he develop this bias? Why would he test everything else correctly, but skew 5.7 data? I am intrigued... I personally think a lot of people are intimidated by the 5.7 platform. It is very new relative to other calibers and it makes people feel insecure especially when they consider that their common caliber pistol is absolutely useless against body armor. Doc Roberts has been called out time and again for being biased on a number of issues besides the 5.7. It's just his attitude towards the 5.7 has been shown to be abnormally peculiar. So now, the round is no better that anything else. It is the volume of fire that made the difference? So, which is it? Anyone who is trained and has a target array like he did could do what he did and probably be even more effective with a 9mm, .40, or .45. Also, please enlighten me how engaging unarmed people that are attempting to flee compares in the slightest with putting down an determined and armed attacker? It is apples to horse apples.. The ratio of people shot to people that died is almost exactly in line with national statistics for bullet shot victim deaths. The people that didn't die at Fort Hood were by and large shot in extremities. Surprise! What allowed him to shoot so many people was the capacity and ease of aim of the Five-seveN pistol during rapid fire. And yes, there were multiple "determined attackers" that rushed Hasan only to be dropped right where they stood. One came at him with a chair, the other a table. I can post all the grim details if you want? Pat is a very good friend of mine, and Kyle is an acquaintance. I find it amusing that two men with careers as storied and experienced as theirs are reduced to being inexperienced fools in the art of gunfighting, or the capabilities of weapon systems out there by you. I respect Pat and Kyle's service to this country, but their service and experience doesn't make them anymore familiar with the 5.7 platform if they haven't shot it. Their opinion is not based on experience. I found that to be the case in nearly every conversation like we are having. The antagonist doesn't own the weapon, has little experience with the weapon, but has a great story about how it failed.... So killer, what have you done? What makes your opinion on the 5.7 more relevant than those guys? What, you carry one for self defense? You read about it on the internets? What more than "what you have read or heard about" is your worthless opinion based on? Have you used a 5.7 caliber weapon operationally? Have you smoked any fools with a 5.7? With anything? I did start with someone that has used the weapon in a shooting, or can't you remember after all the bs you have posted. According to them, it "Sucked. Giant. Dog. Balls." I also tested the weapon for my agency. In my opinion, and the opinion of my fellow range staff, it also "Sucked. Giant. Dog. Balls." How could the 5.7 platform "suck balls" on the range? It is one of the flattest shooting pistols you can fire. It's as reliable as any gun on the market. And it's capacity seems limitless. Many gun tournaments ban the 5.7 or PS90 because it isn't even fair. Your buddy that said his 5.7 sucked balls in a shooting; is there a news article to corroborate the crime? Anything to prove this shooting actually happened? Or was this a secret, clandestine mission deep in the jungle? I have news articles on the performance of the 5.7. What do you have besides, "my buddy shot someone with it and said it sucked balls..." But that didn't fit within your perception of reality so you basically called my buddy (and me) a liar. I read Sandy's post - on an airsoft forum nonetheless It is rife with BS and contradictions: "The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm AND 5.7mm rounds" - well which was it, the 5.56 or the 5.7 that did the job? "no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned." - 'no more' indicates that it has happens more than once in the past and once should be reason enough to be thrown off a SWAT team alone. I know it would get me kicked off mine and I know I am not making entry with someone that can't tell what condition his weapon is in. "The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo." - Really? "If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready." - I do spend time a lot of time as a SWAT Cop, and I wouldn't take a P90 unless that was the only choice. (Also, guys that call themselves "operators" are ghey. They aren't surgeons and they don't answer phones.) Also, I have used the Wallbanger in training. It almost killed (decapitated) my team mate. We are now in the process with fighting with Safariland to return it. If he developed that monstrosity, I want nothing to do with anything he recommends. From one SWAT guy to another, I have no problems saying that. I know the capacity of the P90. And despite you calling me an "Armchair Operator" I also know a thing or two about CQB and FISHing. With a weapon that shoots such tiny and ineffective bullets that fast, that sounds like a viable TTP to neutralize a threat when saddled with that albatross. Tiny and ineffective bullets? Do you even understand the platform? The SS198 bullet is nearly an inch long and reliably tumbles shortly after piercing flesh or body armor. Very reliably... What "specialists" in the sandbox are you referring to? The 4.6 has a niche and it performs well there, but other than that one small mission, it is not preferred. By the way, you are calling out Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb, then talking about "real CQB". So, what have you done? How much "real life" CQB have you participated in? How many times have you been FISHing for real? What gives you the chops to start making comments like that? I don't need chops. I have facts. You only have sea stories. "You aim center mass, depress the trigger for one second (that's 15 rounds flying like a laser at your POA) and watch the bad guy drop" - 'like a laser' comment aside - So 15 rounds to get the job done is OK? In a 50 round mag that is almost a third of your ammo. So the need to expend 33% of your weapons capacity to drop one bad guy is not just acceptable but preferable? Wow, I sure am glad you aren't selecting the weapons I have to carry... My choice of one second was to illustrate the lunacy of saying the weapon would be ineffective in the hands of a trained shooter at 900RPM. I would suspect that most people would shoot in 1/3 second bursts... 5 rounds.. 5 rounds ... 5 rounds... all at center mass, all penetrating Level IIIA and beyond... all tumbling once entering flesh.. The P90 is certainly no .50 cal, but damn it's accurate and you ought to watch it drop those 150lb hogs like flies with only a couple shots. If you think that would be ineffective at reaching the CNS on a human, you need to brush up on your terminal ballistics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedKillz 0 Posted August 6, 2013 Here's the proper link on that Sandy Wall article. http://webcitation.org/5yoK5IoX4 Airsoft... lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SJG 253 Posted August 6, 2013 IMO this is one cool ass gun, unique, fun to shoot, can be had for less $ if you shop it and ammo can be found if you shop it hard for around $30 for 50 rounds, and hopefully will become more available. It may not be a panacea, but nothing is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted August 6, 2013 This is a tough decision. I wasnt planning on getting one. I have an opportunity to get one at a special price and cant decide. This whole debate has really confused me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted August 6, 2013 Im not inclined to detail read all the reposted reposts of necroposts from the 5.7 forum. But a few items caught my eye. Just because a dept/agency has them in inventory does NOT mean they actually use them. There are a few pics floating around the web of me with fully tricked out P90's with intigrated lasers etc etc that where provided to departments. They played with them, put them in the armory/tried to return them/ etc etc but they dont go out on deployment. The functionality of the system is not the issue. Confidence in the round is. This confidence is shaken due to dept backchannel accounts and concerns on the 5.7. By your logic speed, because anecdotal successes can likely be found on a .22 short, it is thus effective. That is simply a silly perspective. The other item that caught me eye was your capacity comment. Please provide me any links or stories you may have where a civilian was in a protracted gunfight where capacity became a significant factor. I ask for this from any pistol capacity proponents but.....I never seem to get any links or credible stories Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RubberBullets 65 Posted August 6, 2013 Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
