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SJG

FN Five SeveN MK2 Pistol

By SJG, in Handguns

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

IMO this is one cool ass gun, unique, fun to shoot, can be had for less $ if you shop it and ammo can be found if you shop it hard for around $30 for 50 rounds, and hopefully will become more available. It may not be a panacea, but nothing is

 

Cool ass gun is an understatement. If you shoot it you will be hooked. The more I have trained with my Five-seveN, the more I have found the design to be genius. The safety - which causes first time handlers pause - is extremely intuitive and becomes second nature with just a little practice. It aligns perfectly with the indexed finger.

 

This is a tough decision. I wasnt planning on getting one. I have an opportunity to get one at a special price and cant decide. This whole debate has really confused me.

 

Go to a range and rent one and shoot it. Then make your decision. As far as the debate is concerned, it really comes down to a personal decision. If you are concerned about the gun's "stopping power". Read up a little on Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the foremost expert in forensic pathology in the country. He will make it clear to you what bullets can do to the human body. Stopping power was widely embraced by the bullet manufacturers as a way to sell you their magical bullets. The solution to achieving "stopping power" against an attacker is really quite simple; adequate bullet penetration and impacting the CNS. Only until you start getting into the larger rifle calibers does importance of aim start to lessen. FYI he was recently hired as an expert witness in the Trayvon Martin case. 

 

 

Any pistol caliber that is not placed in the central nervous system is unlikely to cause rapid incapacitation (unless the bullet strikes an important vascular structure); the "incapacitation" effect is generally a psychological reaction to being shot, and it happens regardless of caliber. To quote Dr. Di Maio, from the same reference I linked earlier:
 
 
"First, it should be said that hollow-point bullets do not mutilate organs or destroy them any more than their solid-nose, all-lead counterparts of the same caliber. The wounds in the skin, as well as those in the internal organs, are the same in appearance and extent for both types of ammunition."
 
"Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."
 
 
 
Quote:
With regards to blood loss, the greater the volume of tissue that can be crushed or otherwise damaged, the more profuse the blood loss will be and the quicker the person shot will lose consciousness.
You're forgetting the fact that the typical pistol bullet is smaller than a thimble and creates a permanent cavity even smaller still. If the bullet strikes a vital structure, the victim will likely be stopped/killed. If the bullet does not strike a vital structure, the victim will likely not be stopped/killed. It's that simple. A pistol bullet will not achieve substantial blood loss from a flesh wound, regardless of its caliber. To quote Dr. Di Maio again, from the same reference:
 
 
"Since the brain can function for 10 to 15 seconds without oxygen, even if all blood is cut off by the wound, the individual can function for this time period. If the injury does not shut off the flow of blood to the brain completely, an individual will be capable of normal activity until they lose approximately 25% of their total blood volume. The amount of time necessary for this to happen can vary from a few seconds (plus the 10 to 15 second oxygen reserve of the brain), to minutes, to hours depending on the structures injured, compensatory mechanisms of the body and attempts to staunch the bleeding by the victim. The fact that an individual can be mortally wounded, yet still be capable of aggressive actions and a threat, sometimes for a prolonged amount of time, is not appreciated by the public whose concepts of shootings is derived from television and the movies."
 
"In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."
 

 

 

 

Im not inclined to detail read all the  reposted reposts of necroposts from the 5.7 forum. But a few items caught my eye.

 

Just because a dept/agency has them in inventory does NOT mean they actually use them. There are a few pics floating around the web of me with fully tricked out P90's with intigrated lasers etc etc that where provided to departments. They played with them, put them in the armory/tried to return them/ etc etc but they dont go out on deployment. The functionality of the system is not the issue. Confidence in the round is. This confidence is shaken due to dept backchannel accounts and concerns on the 5.7. By your logic speed, because anecdotal successes can likely be found on a .22 short, it is thus effective. That is simply a silly perspective.

 

The other item that caught me eye was your capacity comment. Please provide me any links or stories you may have where a civilian was in a protracted gunfight where capacity became a significant factor. I ask for this from any pistol capacity proponents but.....I never seem to get any links or credible stories :(

 

I believe the average shots fired in a typical self-defensive shooting is 2-3 rounds. But that doesn't mean there aren't self-defensive shootings that required more bullets. Same goes for body armor. Body armor is still quite rare with thugs, but it is becoming more and more frequent.

 

Speaking of protracted gunfights. You just reminded me of a guy that was using traditional capacity mags and wheel guns and had to go through half a dozen guns in his shop during a protracted gun fight. You might remember this video. What a great, great story! He would have definitely benefited from having my 5.7 at his disposal. :)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w  

 

 

It's kind of a silly argument though to say most gun fights only involve a few rounds so why not just carry a revolver. I think it is human nature to want to prepare for the worst thus having 21 rounds makes you feel better than having 5.

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

In case anybody is interested in the increasing prevalence of bad guys with body armor, here is a comment posted by a guy over a year ago.. most of the links should still work... 

 

 

 

Some recent examples a quick search on Bing turns up:

 
 
 
 
(Man murdered by a robber wearing body armor)
 
(Bad guy killed in home invasion - despite wearing body armor)
 
(another home intruder wearing body armor, Seattle)
 
(what's worse than ONE bad guy wearing armor? TWO of them. Massachusettes.)
 
(There's still an active Militia somewhere?)
 
(San pablo)
 
(Big drug bust yields body armor)
 
(Another felon in armor.. this time, STOLEN from the police!)
 
(And another)
 
(And another)
 
(And another)
 
(And another)
 
(And another)
 
(And another)
 
(and another)
 
(and another)
 
Should I go on? I only made it to the third page of search results, out of a LOT of pages of search results.
 
Enough of a study for you?
 

 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

I was digging through my 5.7 file and found some more interesting stuff:

 

 

The following discussion was mostly by P.M. from a guy I met on a gun forum. Notice they are using the SS197 (blue-tip) which is a 40 grain target practice round. The defensive round I carry in my pistol has many times more energy and penetration than SS197. 

 

 

I have a couple of friends that have PS90's. They brought them on a hog hunt last month and I couldn't believe they were putting down some good sized hogs (150lbs.+) with one shot, maybe two. I would've never believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself. I even shot a 180lbs hog with one shot out of a PS90. At approx. 50yds the hog went down like it hit a brick wall.

 
I wouldn't consider a Five-Seven handgun at that price, but I'd spring the extra bucks for a PS90, just for fun...
 
Do you have anymore info on that hunting trip? Perhaps some pictures? It's always interesting reading how the 5.7 takes down game.
 
Sorry man, I don't have any pics, my buddies took them all and my phone died. All I can tell you about my shot was that the 5.7 dropped that hog like a7.62x51 (.308). They're awesome guns just too pricy for me at the moment.
 
Do you remember what ammo you were using? SS197 (blue tips) or SS195 (hollow points), or were you using EA ammo?
Sorry for the late reply, been out of town. They were using the blue tipped ammo, they didn't have anything else.
 

 

 

Here is another more recent account of a 5.7 owner that had some experiences to share:

 

 

I've had one now for about three years. Probably put 400 rounds of 197 total through it. No failures, very accurate. 

 
Only thing I don't like about it is the mag disconnect.
 
I quantify the effectiveness of cartridges by how they kill critters. I hunt with a lot of different handguns on a lot of different critters. My favorite critter for testing handguns is Javelina. I've shot them with 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357mag... You can shoot two a year in Texas and where I hunt they are plentiful.
 
I shot one a couple years ago with my 5.7 using SS197. It chrono's out of my pistol at 1760fps. The Javelina I shot was at 60 yards. It moved as the shot broke and hit it in the left hip ranging forward into the body cavity. It went down with a broken hip but with the front end still up, so I shot it again behind the left shoulder penetrating the chest and off side shoulder. The little pig was dead quick. The bullet crossing the chest boiled the lungs and cut off the top of the heart. Pretty nasty wound.
 
It weighed about 45 pounds so not a big critter, but the performance was at least as good as any 9mm I've used.
 

 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted
 

A person could go on and on about what they heard from this guy or that but the only actual credible accounts of shootings with the 5.7x28mm would be:

 

- The Fort Hood shooting, which is very well-documented now (see some of the first-hand accounts, such as the one I posted below).

 

- A handful of U.S. SWAT shootings like the one that was described in the Houston SWAT writeup on the P90 (by a 28-year veteran of HPD).

 

- Dozens upon dozens of news reports on shootings (mostly fatal, and mostly done with the Five-seveN pistol, aka "matapolicias") from the Mexican Drug War, and nearby countries like Colombia and the Dominican Republic. The news accounts from Mexico are supported by crime scene photos showing 5.7x28mm casings and/or the deceased victims themselves (many of those are graphic so I won't post them here).

 

All of the shootings listed above clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers. The hearsay on this caliber that appears on internet forums is always completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable; people have been recycling these stories for years now, and you still can't trace them to anything more credible than vague posts on an internet forum.

 

As for the Fort Hood shooting, being armed does not make an individual impervious or magically resistant to bullets; the wounds (and their effects) are not different. As for "fleeing," the soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting. Two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).

 

The female police officer that responded to the shooting was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

 

All of this information is corroborated by a number of witnesses including Munley herself, on both her blog and in her trial testimony. See:

 


 

I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all. 

 

I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed.

 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

You have a 5.7 file?

 

I0Svc.gif

 

Yeah, I collected data points over the years regarding the caliber. I wanted to sift through the B.S. and decide for myself what the gun could really do. It's a fairly new platform relative to others so for a while there was always new stuff coming out. I can assure you if I was a prospective 5.7 purchaser and someone came along like me and dumped all this info for me to read and decide for myself, I would be eternally grateful. In fact, that is where I found most of this info, from 5.7 owners that were far more experienced than I at the time.

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Vlad G    345

Vlad G
Posted

You clearly have found religion. Congratulations on you new faith and your eternal gratefulness.  Me, I eat pork, I don't wear a funny hat, I trim my beard, and I don't wear orange robes, but hey .. whatever works for you man, even if from where I'm standing it looks like you are obsessed with thetans.

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Shane45    807

Shane45
Posted

Thomase's first encounter was 3 rounds. His second was 18 devided by 3 revolvers. His 3rd was 8. and as best I can tell his 4th is 11. We can switch from the term protracted as I dont think any of his gunfights are and look at the round count instead. The only one I would say qualifies is #2. And I submit that if he was carrying a pistol instead of stashing them all over, the round count would likely have been less. Regardless, I personally would rather reload than dive for other pistols but that is another debate entirely. I don think his case is a case for capacity, I think its a case for wearing your weapon.

 

Think about this for a second. The groups deploying P90's are not rank and file. They are people that spend a great deal more time training. Meaning their shot placement, the thing that  trumps all else, is far above average. Yet this same group largely has abandoned the platform. If it was effective a assure you it would be WIDELY adopted. The rifle is compact, reliable, inexpensive, fully ambi and has a 50 round mag! Whats not to love? 5.7, thats what. They sit in the armory next to the MP5's. Yes they sit too. Why? I can tell you they have more confidence in the MP5's but the HK's are just to expensive to keep running and replacement parts are nonexistant. This is why the M4 and variants get all the love.

 

You have drawn your conclusion. You believe in the cartridge. Good for you. But your comments, especially directed at High Exposure, are irritating because you make some assumptions about his background that make your comments plain ignorant. Comments based on assumption rarely turn out well. You also make it clear that you are emotionally invested in a caliber/platform. This is a mistake. We are invested in what works/keeps you alive. I will dump whatever I am using on the spot if there is a PROVEN better performer to be had. I have no emotional investment in inanimate objects.

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

You clearly have found religion. Congratulations on you new faith and your eternal gratefulness.  Me, I eat pork, I don't wear a funny hat, I trim my beard, and I don't wear orange robes, but hey .. whatever works for you man, even if from where I'm standing it looks like you are obsessed with thetans.

 

I certainly had a "coming to Jesus" when I first shot the pistol. It felt amazing to me in every way. After doing some serious research and testing of my own, I came to the conclusion that this was the caliber for me. 

 

 

Thomase's first encounter was 3 rounds. His second was 18 devided by 3 revolvers. His 3rd was 8. and as best I can tell his 4th is 11. We can switch from the term protracted as I dont think any of his gunfights are and look at the round count instead. The only one I would say qualifies is #2. And I submit that if he was carrying a pistol instead of stashing them all over, the round count would likely have been less. Regardless, I personally would rather reload than dive for other pistols but that is another debate entirely. I don think his case is a case for capacity, I think its a case for wearing your weapon.

 

There are a lot of things Thomas could have done. First and foremost, he should have moved away after the first shooting. He was one lucky S.O.B. Did you notice during one 911 call, that he was in an active firefight while calmly talking to the dispatcher? There should be a movie made about his experience. Most moviegoers would call B.S. on the "based on a true story" caption unless they knew the background on Thomas. 

 

Think about this for a second. The groups deploying P90's are not rank and file. They are people that spend a great deal more time training. Meaning their shot placement, the thing that  trumps all else, is far above average. Yet this same group largely has abandoned the platform. If it was effective a assure you it would be WIDELY adopted. The rifle is compact, reliable, inexpensive, fully ambi and has a 50 round mag! Whats not to love? 5.7, thats what. They sit in the armory next to the MP5's. Yes they sit too. Why? I can tell you they have more confidence in the MP5's but the HK's are just to expensive to keep running and replacement parts are nonexistant. This is why the M4 and variants get all the love.

 

I disagree that the weapon is inexpensive. Agencies around the country get massive breaks on pricing from the Colts, Bushmasters, and Glocks of the world. If a dept. changed their weapons over to 5.7 and had to buy 5.7 ammo in large amounts, they would double or triple their costs over 9mm. Their qualifications scores would obviously improve, but when has the government ever made decisions based on efficiency and performance. 

 

You have drawn your conclusion. You believe in the cartridge. Good for you. But your comments, especially directed at High Exposure, are irritating because you make some assumptions about his background that make your comments plain ignorant. Comments based on assumption rarely turn out well. You also make it clear that you are emotionally invested in a caliber/platform. This is a mistake. We are invested in what works/keeps you alive. I will dump whatever I am using on the spot if there is a PROVEN better performer to be had. I have no emotional investment in inanimate objects.

 

I merely attempted to match his tone. High Exposure was trying to flame so I just played back at him. Also, his experience with the 5.7 is extremely limited so his opinion on the matter means very little to me. I listen to people that have tested the weapon with the latest available ammunition and report the facts. And when someone regurgitates a story that was fabricated half a decade ago and proven to be a fabrication, I know right away they are basing their opinion on internet lore and not their own careful research. 

 

Hey, as I said, there are many viable pistol calibers, and 5.56 is a great round for medium range encounters. What many people don't realize though, is when a person tries to turn an AR-15 into a compact weapon like the PS90 the game starts to change. First, the muzzle energy numbers get surprisingly close between the SBR AR-15 and the PS90 when using the best available 5.7 ammo. Secondly, the noise and muzzle flash on an SBR 5.56 is the opposite of what you want in a tactical situation. Thirdly, the muzzle climb on the SBR 5.56 compared to the PS90 is incomparable. 

 

So basically you are running into a CQB situation with a chopped AR that acts as a damn flash grenade to the person shooting it, and gives up most of its muzzle energy advantage to the PS90. Then you consider the PS90 with its 900RPM, it's low noise factor and zero muzzle flash, it's near-zero recoil, the fact that it doesn't spit hot brass on the good guys, and you start thinking that the guys at FNH might have known what they were doing. 

 

Again, this is America and we think bigger is always better.. If I didn't know what I know about the Five-seveN and PS90, I would say AR-15 and .300 blackout all the way baby. But knowing what I know about the 5.7 platform, I can see how it would work nicely and why the platform is employed in 40+ countries and hundreds of agencies across the United States.

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Shane45    807

Shane45
Posted

I did in fact notice that about the 911 call. His mental state is clearly his biggest asset enabling him to prevail. On the topic of price, I can tell you that what we charged a PD for a P90 would make you blush. Bulk ammo was also quite reasonable in that timeframe. Yes, indeed the P90 runs like a sewing machine. I could easily keep a full mag dump on target. But I have said time and again that, in my opinion, that scope is a very narrow one. I also believe that there are better solutions at this point. 300Blk being one of them. The p90 has had over 20 years to make its in roads. In my opinion, it just hasent done it and not because of the function of the weapon. Again, those that bought vs actually making it off the rack are two different things. As to employing an M4/SBR etc etc I would abdicate to High Exposures first hand experiences on that topic.

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

I did in fact notice that about the 911 call. His mental state is clearly his biggest asset enabling him to prevail. On the topic of price, I can tell you that what we charged a PD for a P90 would make you blush. Bulk ammo was also quite reasonable in that timeframe. Yes, indeed the P90 runs like a sewing machine. I could easily keep a full mag dump on target. But I have said time and again that, in my opinion, that scope is a very narrow one. I also believe that there are better solutions at this point. 300Blk being one of them. The p90 has had over 20 years to make its in roads. In my opinion, it just hasent done it and not because of the function of the weapon. Again, those that bought vs actually making it off the rack are two different things. As to employing an M4/SBR etc etc I would abdicate to High Exposures first hand experiences on that topic.

 

The guy was an animal for sure.

 

I think you can get a LEO discount on the PS90 for around 750.00 right now if I am not mistaken. I will agree that the P90 was designed for special applications, but I disagree on the conclusions you are making about its usage considering its lifespan. 20 years is a fraction of the time most other pistol calibers have been in use. Considering the fact that the ammo is made BY ONLY ONE COMPANY that holds several patents on the design, it seems wildly popular to me. 40+ countries and hundreds of agencies in the U.S. is not scarce when you consider that production is limited to one Belgian company. According to a report from FNH a year or so before the panic, "10's of thousands of Five-seveN's PISTOLS" are sold in the U.S. each year (I never heard a number on the PS90's). Now that isn't in the Glock 17 territory, but it isn't anything to sneeze out either. That figure was only limited to the U.S. so that isn't including worldwide sales. In a nutshell, the 5.7 is a long way from a bust considering how new and specialize AND EXPENSIVE it is.

 

I don't know about abdicating, but I can read on my own and the energy numbers on SBR AR's are around 900 ft-lbs., and some of the hottest 5.7 ammo approaches 700 ft-lbs out of the PS90. When you consider the muzzle flash and noise coming from an SBR AR and the relative stealthiness out of the PS90, there is more to discuss here. Now, I am talking about the PS90 here which has the longer barrel. The P90 has a 10.5 inch barrel so the energy gap will widen a bit. But for self-defense and civilians who are considering a PS90 or an SBR AR for home defense, the PS90 makes a LOT of sense unless you want to be deaf and blind in your home God forbid you have to shoot your carbine indoors. 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

This thread was supposed to be about the pistol.. oh well. 

 

Watch this video of what looks like an 85lb kid shooting a P90 full auto. Now imagine if he was shooting an SBR's AR. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn-avyWm4B4

 

There's something to be said about that kind of controllability. It's not for everyone, and sure it doesn't replace other rifles at greater distances. But the platform is no joke and if that kid had been aiming center mass at a bad guy, the bad guy would have had a freshly installed zipper. 

 

 

I need to add this one as well just for giggles..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbk7UqLiOFM

 

Pay close attention around the 2:00 mark. Then realize that buddies of High Exposure have said that a P90 used in a shooting only penetrated the skin and failed to break a rib. Also realize that buddies of High Exposure have publicly stated that when a bad guy in Florida was shot with the P90 he started yelling that he would surrender if only they would stop shooting him with that thing. Yes, I know... hilarious...

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Shane45    807

Shane45
Posted

Agreed, about pistols as the original topic BUT if you believe the round is having issue out of a rifle, it makes the outlook from a pistol more of a concern. Lets talk about sales for a second. What did FN do right? They put the PS90 on TV and in Video games. It is well understood this did GREAT things for sales at FN. And on the pistol side, anything that gets the ban hype WILL drive sales. Even when there was a brief talk about glocks being banned they jumped. Look at the unprecidented jump in AR sales due to ban talk. But those sales and what drives them have nothing to do with the capability of the weapon or cartridge.

 

Here is my bottom line. I was an original member of the long gone Ammolab. In my opinion, things at extremes simply dont do as well. Yes there are 5.7 rounds that can approach 700 ftlbs of energy (IN THE 16" PS90). But they are so devoid of mass I truly doubt their effectiveness. Do you know of ANY AAR's or stories on, say EA S4M? From what I remember of my observations, extremely light bullets have very unpredictable behaviour and effectiveness. Not what I want. If I were a proponent of above avg capacity pistols, if there was say, an HK P30 9mm with a known good gold dot based ammo in it and a 5.7 on the table, Im taking the HK with the proven performer in actual shootings.

 

And just for clarity, Im not talking about the price of a PS90 for a PD, Im talking about a P90 with lots of options that are not available on civilian models (other than the happy switch :) ).

 

And last but not least a link with info that mirrors exactly the kind of info that was relayed back to me from those that have deployed with 5.7 based systems....

 

http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=671

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

Agreed, about pistols as the original topic BUT if you believe the round is having issue out of a rifle, it makes the outlook from a pistol more of a concern. Lets talk about sales for a second. What did FN do right? They put the PS90 on TV and in Video games. It is well understood this did GREAT things for sales at FN. And on the pistol side, anything that gets the ban hype WILL drive sales. Even when there was a brief talk about glocks being banned they jumped. Look at the unprecidented jump in AR sales due to ban talk. But those sales and what drives them have nothing to do with the capability of the weapon or cartridge.

 

Here is my bottom line. I was an original member of the long gone Ammolab. In my opinion, things at extremes simply dont do as well. Yes there are 5.7 rounds that can approach 700 ftlbs of energy (IN THE 16" PS90). But they are so devoid of mass I truly doubt their effectiveness. Do you know of ANY AAR's or stories on, say EA S4M? From what I remember of my observations, extremely light bullets have very unpredictable behaviour and effectiveness. Not what I want. If I were a proponent of above avg capacity pistols, if there was say, an HK P30 9mm with a known good gold dot based ammo in it and a 5.7 on the table, Im taking the HK with the proven performer in actual shootings.

 

And just for clarity, Im not talking about the price of a PS90 for a PD, Im talking about a P90 with lots of options that are not available on civilian models (other than the happy switch :) ).

 

And last but not least a link with info that mirrors exactly the kind of info that was relayed back to me from those that have deployed with 5.7 based systems....

 

http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=671

 

 

I'm familiar with most of the contributors in that link especially the Military Arms Channel dude. He put out a laughable demonstration of the PS90 against a water jug using frangible ammo. When the round grenaded shortly after the first jug his "expert" analysis is that the platform fails to penetrate adequately. What he didn't understand is that high velocity frangible ammo behaves very differently in water jugs compared to tissue simulant. In short, he was a nub and got thoroughly worked over in some forum last year for it by people that know a lot more about the 5.7 than he. If he had been using SS195, SS198, SS190, or some of EA's non-frangible ammo, the result would have been very different.

 

As far as the comments by the other people; we had the "hose them down" comment again made by a person with no experience with the 5.7 and apparently little understanding of terminal ballistics. You aren't going to stop anybody with anything short of a .50 cal if you are "hosing" them down. You might get lucky, but you are going to have much better luck aiming center mass and firing short bursts at the CNS. Hosing down.... SMMFH....

 

And the story about the dept. that "got rid" of the P90's in a hurry after poor performance is another unverifiable account. It sounds like the Jacksonville Florida farce where the guy was reportedly pleading for the SWAT to "stop shooting me with that thing". I have the original link to that shooting and it happened nothing like the Interwebs report. 

 

Look, I understand the hesitancy to adopt a platform made by the French. In fact, when I put it like that my stomach kind of turns as well. But there is no mistaking that the P90 is a legitimate choice for CQB situations for a multitude of reasons. It is currently used by over 40 countries in the world and hundreds of agencies in the U.S. It was and is being used by the U.S.S.S. for many years now and they do testing like no other agency. They can't all be stupid.

 

Now, let me direct you back to the previous video and I want you to watch it as unbiased as you possibly can. Go to the 2:00 mark and imagine one or two guys firing on a suspect in close quarters. Now imagine it not dropping the bad guy with shooters that have decent aim. Okay, even if they were "hosing" a guy down rofl. Now, go ahead to the 2:25 mark and look at the cinder block that was reduced to powder. Again, what do you think the effect on human tissue and bone would be? Do you think it would be like the esteemed dentist (Doc Roberts) who routinely (and proudly) recycled the fable of a user who fired on a suspect with a P90 using SS190 (31gr mil. round w/ steel penetrator tip) ammo and the round barely penetrated the skin coming to rest on the ribs? 

 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

Watching that video a bit more closely, it looks like he puts about 15 rounds into the cinder block. I assume he is using the low-power SS197 frangible sporting round, probably the worst round you could use against rock. Now, take a look at what other common pistol calibers do to a cinder block. Pistol calibers that are used daily against bad guys around the world.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eD1REUPVbU

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeJaERHOlKg

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acAKTglhgzY

 

 

 

Here is a video of a PS90 in semi-auto fire using the SS197 sporting round (V-Max Frangible tip) against cinder blocks. Six shots breaks it in half. Not bad for a 40gr frangible round. Do you think even this low-power practice round would stop just under the skin and on top of a rib?   EL OH EL.....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4qCVqKJ490

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

If I'm bumpin' around in the sandbox engaging targets beyond 200m I want an AR15.. hell give me an AR10. But if I'm working with a small group knockin' down doors and searching houses, I would be perfectly comfortably with a P90. I could carry TWICE the ammo of 9mm for the exact same weight. Perhaps that's why there are some specialists using P90's and MP7's in the very situation I just described... They better be hosin' 'em down though amiright? ;)

 

GOOD GOD this forum has a lot of emoticons. I think it's certainly a record... 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

man I really want a FN Five Seven now, lol looks like a fun shooter, too bad ammo is expensive

 

The price of the weapons are dropping like crazy. Now is the time to buy the weapon, the ammo will come down later. PS90's were going for 3 grand 6 months ago. Now you can buy them easily for 1,200. SS197 was going for 17.00 per/50 nine months ago, now it's more like 25.00 if you know where to look. The price will come down.

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

Good God I'm like a posting machine. Forgive me, I haven't gotten into one of these 5.7 "discussions" in a year or so. I just HAD to share this guy's performance with his PS90 with you all.

 

Here's the link

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724032&page=2  

 

He set a freaking record in the high-power rifle sporting class with his PS90... ROFL

 

 

 

Shot it in both Sporting Rifle matches today.

Not only did I win both of the matches with the PS90, I set a new club record in Highpower Sporting Rifle. smile.gif

On another note, had several FTF with the American Eagle, not going to rely on that stuff for home defense. But it sure puts nice holes in paper.

(Also won the F Class match today, but with a different rifle)

After the highpower sporting rifle and F-class matches were over, on a whim, I shot the PS90 at 300 yards. To be fair I had a spotter who was still set up from F-Class. However, after 5 shots I was dropping them in to the black on a 300 yard F-Class target from the bench. Put all 20 I fired on paper at 300 yards and 12 of those were in the black F class center.

Winds were perfectly calm, for what it's worth. But that little PS90 *will* hit reliably at 300 yards.

Man, I love this gun.

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TooBigToFit    2

TooBigToFit
Posted

Look, I understand the hesitancy to adopt a platform made by the French. In fact, when I put it like that my stomach kind of turns as well. But there is no mistaking that the P90 is a legitimate choice for CQB situations for a multitude of reasons. It is currently used by over 40 countries in the world and hundreds of agencies in the U.S. It was and is being used by the U.S.S.S. for many years now and they do testing like no other agency. They can't all be stupid.

 

 

Wait a second... You mean to tell me you have an entire 5.7 file on your computer, joined a gun forum for a place that you don't even live in to defend your favorite pistol/round, made 25 posts (many of which were double/triple/quadruple+ posts in a row) in a single topic, of essay lengths... and you don't even know that Fabrique Nationale is Belgian?

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Vlad G    345

Vlad G
Posted

I'm more amused how mister SK here acts as the prophet of the god 5.7 and will use every example available of some group or another "adopting" it (which is a cute word in this context as the damn platform might as well be an orphan with no one but FN supporting it). 

 

I mean sure SK can tell us how it is bias against new things that keeps it from taking off, or how really it is just a new cartridge, except for the part that it was created in 1990 and 23 years later you still have to search for examples. I mean its still new right? What other cartridged was introduced in 1990 and succeeded .. oh the 40S&W.  Right well .. S&W is bigger ... except FN is much much bigger.  Everybody and their dog makes 40S&W guns and ammo, a SINGLE company makes 5.7 guns and ammo.

 

Your religious fervor is blinding you to the fact that it is a economic failure. The market doesn't want it. If it was any good, it would have taken off like a rocket, because we'll buy anything, we really will, look at the 50 companies making 1911's or the millions of plastic widgets or AR accessories we'll spend money on. The fact that the 5.7 gathers dust is a clue.   I can buy far more obscure calibers, both guns and ammo, from multiple manufacturers.

 

Lastly the handgun itself is just terrible. If you think that it is a proper design you don't really shoot handguns, or shoot them very well. The safety is an absurd location, the bore height is wrong, the grip shape is wrong, the trigger guard is wrong, it is just a terrible gun from a ergonomic standpoint, regardless if shoots 5.7 or 9mm.

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

Wait a second... You mean to tell me you have an entire 5.7 file on your computer, joined a gun forum for a place that you don't even live in to defend your favorite pistol/round, made 25 posts (many of which were double/triple/quadruple+ posts in a row) in a single topic, of essay lengths... and you don't even know that Fabrique Nationale is Belgian?

 

I'm well aware of the location of the main factory as well as the cultural makeup of Belgium. Are you aware that FN is located in the small city of Herstal, near Liège the French-speaking region of Belgium? Hence Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal (French for National Factory of Herstal) Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre (French for National Factory of Weapons of War. It's not a stretch for someone to call it a "French company".

 

I'm more amused how mister SK here acts as the prophet of the god 5.7 and will use every example available of some group or another "adopting" it (which is a cute word in this context as the damn platform might as well be an orphan with no one but FN supporting it). 

 

I mean sure SK can tell us how it is bias against new things that keeps it from taking off, or how really it is just a new cartridge, except for the part that it was created in 1990 and 23 years later you still have to search for examples. I mean its still new right? What other cartridged was introduced in 1990 and succeeded .. oh the 40S&W.  Right well .. S&W is bigger ... except FN is much much bigger.  Everybody and their dog makes 40S&W guns and ammo, a SINGLE company makes 5.7 guns and ammo.

 

Your religious fervor is blinding you to the fact that it is a economic failure. The market doesn't want it. If it was any good, it would have taken off like a rocket, because we'll buy anything, we really will, look at the 50 companies making 1911's or the millions of plastic widgets or AR accessories we'll spend money on. The fact that the 5.7 gathers dust is a clue.   I can buy far more obscure calibers, both guns and ammo, from multiple manufacturers.

 

Lastly the handgun itself is just terrible. If you think that it is a proper design you don't really shoot handguns, or shoot them very well. The safety is an absurd location, the bore height is wrong, the grip shape is wrong, the trigger guard is wrong, it is just a terrible gun from a ergonomic standpoint, regardless if shoots 5.7 or 9mm.

 

1911's have been around for over a hundred years. The .40 S&W was developed off of a 10mm cartridge by S&W, Winchester, and the FBI. The 5.7 was developed by some Frenchman..... IN BELGIUM. :)

 

By the way, our local police department recently switched out from .40 back to 9mm because the officers couldn't hit shit with the .40. The women officers were complaining about the .40 as well. Glock supplied them with 9mm for a song. Had they switched to Five-seveN's they would have really seen their target scores skyrocket.

 

Economic failure? Hmmm, you and I must have different definitions for economic failure. Last I saw the 5.7 products were priced at a premium with regards to the materials used to produce them. I believe the Five-seveN costs a few hundred dollars to produce and sells all day long for 1,200.00. Economic failure? Surely you jest... Gathering dust? How is that possible when they are always out of stock... everywhere? The second they come in at my local Cabelas they sell out. You are mistaken sir. Demand is high... especially considering it is a fairly unique imported caliber. 

 

The gun itself is terrible? lol? I don't really shoot handguns or shoot them very well? I could most likely shoot you under the table with my 5.7. That's not saying much though.. the Five-seveN makes an amateur shoot like he/she is a non-amateur. For a longtime shooter of the 1911, the safety would indeed seem bizarre, but after careful consideration, one must come to the conclusion that the placement is genius and very intuitive. Draw the weapon with your trigger finger indexed (as you should) and your finger lays directly on the safety. That is not a dumb design. It is a new design, but it is not dumb. Of course the safety is ambidextrous for either hand. Another --not dumb-- feature.

 

The bottom line is this; the Five-seveN is an exotic weapon, it is strange to the old-timers who are used to their trusty 1911's. It shoots a high-speed, technologically advanced bullet which is hard for somebody that has been launching flying ashtrays their whole life to understand. People generally don't like change. The Five-seveN pistol is certainly not the replacement for all calibers, it simply is another effective option in self-defensive choices and perhaps a window into the future of ballistic technology - smart bullets. 

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SpeedKillz    0

SpeedKillz
Posted

I would pay money to watch Vlad and SK go toe to toe on a USPSA course. Oh wait, the FN would never hit power factor.... 

 

I actually do shoot USPSA with my Five-seveN and everybody always gathers around to watch, comment, and ask me for a sample bullet or if they can have my casings. LOL! It's like show and tell. The Five-seveN always draws a crowd at the range. Of course my scores are not official as you mentioned because the round is a .224. 

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TooBigToFit    2

TooBigToFit
Posted

I'm well aware of the location of the main factory as well as the cultural makeup of Belgium. Are you aware that FN is located in the small city of Herstal, near Liège the French-speaking region of Belgium? Hence Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal (French for National Factory of Herstal) Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre (French for National Factory of Weapons of War. It's not a stretch for someone to call it a "French company".

I am very aware. Partially because I can speak French. It still doesn't mean it's a French Company. It's like saying that Glocks are German (Jon would practically die, god forbid that Glocks are made in the same country as his beloved H&Ks), that South Koreans are the same as North Koreans because they're right next to each other and speak the same language, or that Canadian Bacon can be called American Bacon (hell no, they can keep that stuff in Canada).

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