FN Five SeveN MK2 Pistol

[Shane45 807]

SK, I think I am going to have to agree with Vlad that your in a state of blind ferver. Your not hearing or understanding my points and comments. I am listening to your points, giving them consideration, and presenting counterpoints for you to consider. You keep throwing rhetoric back at me instead of discussion. I dont need to look at vids of others shooting a P90 or PS90. I have ample trigger time on both. But the point you are really missing is that you are relying on internet reporting for all you bullet points but want to dismiss all other detracting internet bullet points. You cant have it both ways. My information is directly from the scource of those who deployed with the system. Im not talking about I read it somewhere. Im talking about first hand discussions. Their reports where not favorable. You can link all day but I can tell you first hand I know several teams we sold them to and the units just sit because they could not be returned. Operationally, its a dud. If there was no Call of Duty or Stargate series, it would be a commercial failure as well I suspect. A pattern has emerged in your postings. No matter how credible the resume' of a detractor is, suddenly, by your account, they are a schill. Im sorry so many people are telling you your baby is ugly but the simple fact is that warty, cross eyed little bastard is one ugly baby lol!

[10X 3,296]

 Are you aware that FN is located in the small city of Herstal, near Liège the French-speaking region of Belgium? Hence Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal (French for National Factory of Herstal) Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre (French for National Factory of Weapons of War. It's not a stretch for someone to call it a "French company".

 

 

It's not a stretch to call it a French company.  It's a glaring, factual error.

[FLHX 1]

I have no dog in this fight. I do like FN's products, I would very much love to own a scar and I do own an FNP 9mm and like the pistol. I do have to say the PS90, FS2000 and the 5.7 pistol are some of the ugliest guns made!! IMO!

[RubberBullets 65]

I do have to say the PS90, FS2000 and the 5.7 pistol are some of the ugliest guns made!! IMO!

Are you trying to give this guy a stroke? LoL

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[SpeedKillz 0]

I am very aware. Partially because I can speak French. It still doesn't mean it's a French Company. It's like saying that Glocks are German (Jon would practically die, god forbid that Glocks are made in the same country as his beloved H&Ks), that South Koreans are the same as North Koreans because they're right next to each other and speak the same language, or that Canadian Bacon can be called American Bacon (hell no, they can keep that stuff in Canada).

 

I hear ya man. I apologize for the generalization. I was just trying to convey a possible prejudice of imports especially since it seems a large proportion of the gun crowd like to say they buy "American". There is an FN plant in the U.S. though; my Five-seveN was made in Fredericksburg, VA.  

 

SK, I think I am going to have to agree with Vlad that your in a state of blind ferver. Your not hearing or understanding my points and comments. I am listening to your points, giving them consideration, and presenting counterpoints for you to consider. You keep throwing rhetoric back at me instead of discussion. I dont need to look at vids of others shooting a P90 or PS90. I have ample trigger time on both. But the point you are really missing is that you are relying on internet reporting for all you bullet points but want to dismiss all other detracting internet bullet points. You cant have it both ways. My information is directly from the scource of those who deployed with the system. Im not talking about I read it somewhere. Im talking about first hand discussions. Their reports where not favorable. You can link all day but I can tell you first hand I know several teams we sold them to and the units just sit because they could not be returned. Operationally, its a dud. If there was no Call of Duty or Stargate series, it would be a commercial failure as well I suspect. A pattern has emerged in your postings. No matter how credible the resume' of a detractor is, suddenly, by your account, they are a schill. Im sorry so many people are telling you your baby is ugly but the simple fact is that warty, cross eyed little bastard is one ugly baby lol!

 

I don't think it's blind ferver. I'm the guy with the 5.7 file remember? I don't know who you are, and your comments are in the minority based on all my data on the platform (and personal testing). I cannot test the veracity of your "source". There are many reasons why a new weapon would go unused. Irrational prejudice, lack of training, or just set in one's ways. Gun owners are a VERY fickle bunch. The reason we are bumping heads is because the premise of our arguments are different. I am saying that any round with sufficient penetration and energy is going to put a suspect down with proper aim. It doesn't matter if it's a .38 special or a .50 Desert Eagle. It is going to take proper aim. 

 

Now, let's say you have a guy that you know that actually shot someone with the P/S90 and the attacker didn't explode when the bullets made contact. You already know my response though don't you....? The P90 is a PDW shooting an armor-penetrating, tumbling bullet at 900rpm with about 400-500 ft-lbs. of energy. It is not unlike taking your favorite 9mm, .40S&W, or  .45ACP and having it shooting out a stream of bullets in whatever direction you aim with almost no recoil. Here is the point I am trying to make: all pistol rounds have failed to stop an attacker... ALL of them. Since we know that the only way you stop a threat is by the threat's own desire to disengage from the fight and/or receiving a solid thump in the CNS, the failures are by and large user error - AKA they didn't shoot straight (of course body armor could have played a role with a traditional caliber but let's assume not for this example). 

 

The only way you are going to minimize the occurrence of failures in stopping a suspect with pistol rounds is to increase the accuracy by which the rounds are delivered. You can do that through training, lower-recoiling firearms, higher capacity, higher cycle rate etc. (higher capacity and higher cycle rate won't make you more accurate but do give you more chances to hit the "off" switch on the perp). The PS90 shoots a modified pistol/rifle round at blinding speeds in a laser-like trajectory with hardly any recoil.... AND penetrates the highest rated soft body armor readily available. So I ask you, how is the P90 not a viable option (or the Five-seveN) for that matter.  

 

And before you say get a rifle, a rifle must be aimed accurately within reason as well. I can show you failures to stop with just about every weapon short of a 50 BMG. But let's not get side-tracked, I will obviously agree that as you progress up the power scale in rifles, your margin for error is lower. However, it's impractical to outfit all law enforcement and military with a 16" barreled rifle. By the way, how did we get into a debate about law enforcement use... lol   I usually just argue self-defense for civilians. Regardless, it is a viable option in several scenarios. Would I sit posted outside a building behind a squad car with a P90? No.. I could, but I would most likely have a full-size AR-15 for that. But if I am moving in hallways with a team or entering buildings in close proximity to my potential target, the P90 seems absolutely ideal based on its capabilities, it's design, and the tests I have seen and/or conducted with the 5.7 round. In fact, as I have stated earlier, SOCOM and the USN Seals use the 4.7x30mm for that very thing. Understand that the MP7 fires a "weaker" round than the 5.7x28mm, has less capacity than the P90, and fires nearly the same cycle rate. 

 

So I've got elite forces using PDW's for CQB (could be related to a discussion for self-defense choice in the home) and you've got a buddy that said his department didn't like it. You will understand if I am skeptical of your sources, the circumstances surrounding the report, and the lack of a legitimate source (print). And I have quite a bit of documents on the USSS and their extremely rigorous testing of the P90 before they adopted it. They even publicly criticized Fackler's recommendation that they choose something else. I need to find those articles.. The USSS tests a weapon like no other before they choose it to carry. All these elite U.S. units are wrong and your buddy is right? 

 

No offense but....

 

I have no dog in this fight. I do like FN's products, I would very much love to own a scar and I do own an FNP 9mm and like the pistol. I do have to say the PS90, FS2000 and the 5.7 pistol are some of the ugliest guns made!! IMO!

 

One man's ugly is another man's beautiful. I actually like the way they look but I kind of go for the "high tech" look anyway. I own very old rifles/pistols and I own high-tech rifles/pistols. I find the high-tech ones function the best for me. They are just a tool anyway right? You don't buy a gun to make a fashion statement do you?  As far as a tool, the Five-seveN and the P/S90 perform flawlessly in the field...almost to a fault.

[SpeedKillz 0]

Are you trying to give this guy a stroke? LoL

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

I'm enjoying the conversation... really I am. I am always ready to learn. It's just that "stopping power" is what is being discussed here whether or not the term is publicly uttered and that concept has been utterly disproved by the best forensic pathologist in the country - if not the world. If you really want to get off on a tangent, ask me why there's no advantage (in stopping an attacker) using hollow points versus FMJ. 

[SpeedKillz 0]

It's not a stretch to call it a French company.  It's a glaring, factual error.

 

I'll give you factual but not glaring. 

[10X 3,296]

I'll give you factual but not glaring. 

The Belgians would disagree with you.

[Vlad G 345]

 

I don't think it's blind ferver. I'm the guy with the 5.7 file remember?  I don't know who you are, and your comments are in the minority based on all my data on the platform (and personal testing). I cannot test the veracity of your "source". There are many reasons why a new weapon would go unused. Irrational prejudice, lack of training, or just set in one's ways. Gun owners are a VERY fickle bunch. The reason we are bumping heads is because the premise of our arguments are different. I am saying that any round with sufficient penetration and energy is going to put a suspect down with proper aim. It doesn't matter if it's a .38 special or a .50 Desert Eagle. It is going to take proper aim.

 

There is so much nonsense in this paragraph alone that I'm beginning to think you are just trolling. In that case, well done. 

 

1) You have a file on a caliber, you sure have a fever of some kind unless this is what you get payed to do for a living

2) No one knows who you are either, so why does your opinion carry any weight?

3) Almost everyone in this thread is the minority because your personal opinion? That doesn't even make any sense

4) People who depend on their weapons to live don't have prejudices or lack of training. 

5) Gun owners also buy every darn crazy thing someone invents, the 5.7 included. There is always someone who buys the advertising, and I guess it was your turn. On the other hand things like .40S&W were bought in bulk by LOTS of people, not only on the margin. Speaking of which, your nonsense earlier about how the .40 is older because of the 10mm is just that because there were small caliber handguns before the 5.7, everything is derivative, thats how development works. 

6) If all it takes if proper aim, then why don't we all carry .22s? Or maybe 9s which are cheaper, or .22 hornets? If the bullet performance doesn't matter why am I supposed to care about the 5.7 again?

 

Basically pretty much every thing you post could be replied to like this, but writing 2 paragraphs to every one of yours is tiresome. I would suggest the FN forums for you, you may find more people willing to entertain your line of thinking. 

 

Although again, if you are trolling, well done sir, well done. 

 

 

PS: who let gunkid sign up?

[hiker88 22]

4 pages and counting  

[njpilot 671]

Can't we all just say we agree with him and maybe he'll go away?

[checko 180]

1911's are better than five sevens

[BlueLineFish 615]

1911's are better than five sevens

I will agree to that. Stopping bad guys for as long as it has should tell you something.

[Shane45 807]

As is now becoming a pattern you fail to take in pertinent points. I was involved in the sale of class 3 weapons to LE. So its not info from a(singular) buddy, as you try so hard to imply. Its feedback from the community. Put it this way. My personal ps90 came right from the hands of the director of le sales at fn. All my other contacts and biz associates are still actively engaged with fn so they are not up for discussion. So you can stick with touting the internet hearsay that supports your religion and continue to spout blashpemy at all the detractors. I will continue to listen to those with first hand experience. Stargate is on channel 29 @ 9pm. Enjoy yourself.

[SpeedKillz 0]

There is so much nonsense in this paragraph alone that I'm beginning to think you are just trolling. In that case, well done. 

 

1) You have a file on a caliber, you sure have a fever of some kind unless this is what you get payed to do for a living

 

I thought I cleared that up earlier. When I first started considering carrying a Five-seveN, I did a bunch of research on it compiling testimony, personal accounts, news articles, shootings involving the round, etc. I was like you, I was ignorant of the platform... however, I had an open mind. After doing the research, buying the weapons, testing the weapons, I become 100% secure - even emboldened - by the platform. The weapon simply makes a person a better shooter. If you are good you will be great with the Five-seveN. If you are great you will be making a ragged hole with the gun at self-defensive distances.

 

2) No one knows who you are either, so why does your opinion carry any weight?

 

Because silly, I have posted enough verifiable data on the platform to drown a fish. You have posted nothing but a sea story from a buddy and a quote from a dentist that has been totally and completely discredited by his actions and behaviors on numerous issues - one being his utterly ludicrous and insecure statements on the P90 and prototype bullets that are over two decades old.

 

3) Almost everyone in this thread is the minority because your personal opinion? That doesn't even make any sense

 

Almost everyone in the thread? I hate to say it bro, but most of those I have come across that have any real experience with the platform, your opinion is in the minority. At this point I am doubting that you have even fired it. Most people with your attitude usually have little to no experience operating the weapon, certainly do not own it, and many times cannot afford it so they go around bitterly bashing it. Over-priced 22mag is the common response of those who are bitter. 

 

4) People who depend on their weapons to live don't have prejudices or lack of training. 

 

Of course they do. Police officers depend on their weapons don't they? Police officers are notorious for only practicing a couple times a year to qualify and hardly EVER cleaning their weapons. That is common knowledge with any armorer. This statement by you kind of takes me back. What kind of experience do you actually have in the field? Do you know what the national hit to miss ratio is in law enforcement? Every cop in the country should be carrying a Five-seveN when you take into consideration how many times cops simply can't shoot straight. 

 

5) Gun owners also buy every darn crazy thing someone invents, the 5.7 included. There is always someone who buys the advertising, and I guess it was your turn. On the other hand things like .40S&W were bought in bulk by LOTS of people, not only on the margin. Speaking of which, your nonsense earlier about how the .40 is older because of the 10mm is just that because there were small caliber handguns before the 5.7, everything is derivative, thats how development works.

 

9mm, 40, 45, 10, .38, .357, .41, whatever... they are all common calibers based on 100 year old technology. The 5.7x28mm is a rifle round in a pistol and behaves completely different. When you start to consider a 5.7 with respect to terminal ballistics, you have to throw a lot of your pistol caliber knowledge out the window. A pistol round that reliably spins a couple inches after entering soft tissue yet destroys bone on contact while dumping all of its energy before exiting is a ballistic miracle when you compare it to a 9mm or .45acp.   

 

6) If all it takes if proper aim, then why don't we all carry .22s? Or maybe 9s which are cheaper, or .22 hornets? If the bullet performance doesn't matter why am I supposed to care about the 5.7 again?

 

You probably could carry just about any caliber within reason as long as it has sufficient penetration of which a .22, .380, or the like generally don't. The ammo I carry in my 5.7 will penetrate reliably to 14 inches under FBI testing protocols. 

 

You really need to study up on Dr. Vincent Di Maio's writings. You would be amazed what the industry has told you about ballistics and what is actually true. 

 

YOU don't have to care about the Five-seveN at all. It is you that has chosen to discuss it with me. There are fascinating characteristics about the platform including: accuracy, low-recoil, weight, armor penetration, capacity, etc., but a bullet that hits the CNS is still a bullet that hits the CNS. Carry the weapon you shoot most accurately under stress. That's pretty much it. 

[SpeedKillz 0]

Some of you who are still confused as to how incapacitation actually works in a shooting, I introduce the foremost expert in forensic pathology; Dr. Vincent Di Maio:

 

 

Dr. Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 40 years experience in his field is recognized by numerous independent sources as the nation's leading authority on gunshot wounds (and all this time you thought it was a dentist with a ballistics hobby and a cult following). Drawing on his experience and credibility, he illustrates how illogical the common obsession with bullet diameter and/or expansion is, and stresses shot placement and medical response time as being much more critical in the following quotes: 

 

"One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet."

 

"Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."

 

"There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet."

 

"In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."

 

 

Now that we're all up to speed on the "size issue", we can apply the opinion of a leading pathologist with four decades of experience to the question that asks, "What is the best gun?" Our answer should simply be, "The one we shoot most consistently accurate under stress." I would also add If I may be permitted, that capacity should play a part in the decision as well as each shot available is one more chance at hitting the "stop" (CNS) button.

 

[SpeedKillz 0]

Can't we all just say we agree with him and maybe he'll go away?

 

Of course you entered this thread, so you chose to read what I am typing. You certainly have the choice to leave the thread and never return. But... I'll make a deal with you; I will wait until someone replies to this thread thanking me for the information I have provided. If that doesn't happen I will not post again.

 

So just in case nobody lurking is finding the info I provide helpful and I leave never to return again..... it has been real!

[woodentoe 14]

Never mind.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Thanks for posting. Its good to see both sides and have info to make a judgement. Or at least a starting point

[Shane45 807]

SK, the item you are going to have a hard time dancing around is that the data for actual 5.7 shooting is comparitively small. The reason it stays small is the lack of adoption and deployment because of said poor results of initial egagements. Something the terminal performance communty learned a long time ago, and one you should pay attention to, is it dont matter what all the eggspurts predict. What matters is how it actually works. You only find out how it actually works by investigating actual shootings. Please dont give me the handfull of positive incidents because the few cases of good performance do not give a relevent statistical datum. So field reports of poor performance + insufficient data = better proven choices to select. IF tomorrow EA or FN came out with a round that matched the ballistics of say mk318 ammo and proved its self in the field, Id be all in but until then, I will stick with my 1911 in .45 with gold dot based ammo. Im sure me and my measly 8 rounds can get the job done.

[Blake 50]

 

4) People who depend on their weapons to live don't have prejudices or lack of training. 

 

 

I agree with almost everything in this thread regarding the position of the OP from our forums standpoint, except for this statement.  It is my opinion that:

 

1 -  Most LE personnel I have encountered and know personally have a distinct lack of training.  I know several people who were worried if they would even pass their yearly qualification bc the only time they shoot their gun was during the test.  This doesn't involve the SWAT or special teams officers, I mean the everyday officer who might just be there for a check or the CSI who carries a gun but is really just there to process evidence.  This is obviously a generalization but these people do exist, I would argue in larger numbers than you would think.

 

2 - The few people I know that do actually use their weapon's on a frequent basis (one Ranger, one SEAL, two police officers on special units) are HIGHLY biased on what they use (likely bc they know it works and will not deviate from what they have/ are issued).  I think that "operators" are more likely to be biased based on that fact that they train extensively on either one or a limited number of platforms. 

 

I will also say that someone like Shane45 who has had the opportunity to shoot lots of different platforms or people like the guy from MAC on youtube have had the  benefit of running so many different systems that they can make an informed decision on how a firearm or specific round actually performs. 

 

In the end I will take their opinions over someone who has invested everything they have into one round or platform, ala speedkillz

[Parker 213]

The diminutive 5.7x28 is no "medium game" round as one poster suggests. (Medium game is defined as 4-legged critters up to 350 lbs., with a minimum of 1,000 ft. lbs. on energy necessary for a humane and quick kill.) Any cartridge can be deployed with success under the right circumstances, based on an indivudual's highly developed skill level and sometimes with intentional/unintentional controlled circumstances. However, medium game doesn't shoot back, hence the trepidation by the LE commentators regarding this round.

 

The .22 Hornet, .222 Rem., 222 Rem. Mag., .223, .22 HighPower have been around decades longer than the 5.7x28, have better energy numbers than the newer round, yet none of them have taken the hunting world's medium game category by storm. It would be wishful thinking to assume that the new 5.7x28 would rise above them. All these cartridges dance in the varmint realm, the same place the 5.7x28 belongs.

 

And if the 5.7x28 was the panacea for all medium game animals, why are there so few commercial chamberings in modern rifles today? Didn't Savage just drop the chambering last year? Sorry, it's not taking the hunting world by storm anytime soon.

[Malice4you 627]

You know, I like the Five-seveN pistol...and I plan to own one for the hell of it...

I always liked the P90 and wish I were able to get one...

After handling a PS90 and finding out I can get a mock suppresor to cover that idiotic-looking extended 16" barrel, I even kinda want one of those...

I have airsoft versions of the Five-seveN pistol and P90, for whatever that's worth.  I think it is safe to say I don't dislike the 5.7x28. 

 

So, after saying all that, I really can't wait for you, SpeedKillz, to just be quiet. 

 

We get it. You're deeply, madly in love with the 5.7x28 cartridge.  Maybe it's the best thing ever since sliced bread.  Maybe it is the sleeper of the gun world. 

 

But we live in NJ.  We can't use a 20 or 30 round mag, so there goes the one major advantage of the pistol.  We either get the 10s, or neuter a 20 to 15.  I can get a 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .357sig "carry" gun (not like we can carry here, either) that holds 15...and I can buy any one of those cartridges locally today.  5.7...I haven't actually seen it locally yet....including before this whole mess started ~8 months ago.  You talking about armor penetrating this and that?  You're actively HURTING anyone who may want to own one...this state already doesn't like the Five-seveN...you're going to give them ammo to use against us?  Lets face facts...  In NJ, anything based on a 5.7x28 is neutered, loses any benefit it may have had as designed, and becomes just another expensive toy.  Albeit perhaps a fun toy, but a toy nonetheless.

 

I can copy write long paragraphs about this topic...but you're not going to change your mind...nor are you going to convince anyone else here that you're an expert and to take everything you say as gospel and 100% truth.  All you're doing is making 5.7 shooters seem like they have to convince everyone, themselves included, they made a wise choice...instead of going with a more tested and proven round.

 

It reeks of a sad desperation...and makes those of us who want a 5.7 gun seem guilty by association of this too...  So...enough already...

 

But hey, I'm probably just another keyboard commando, right?

[SpeedKillz 0]

SK, the item you are going to have a hard time dancing around is that the data for actual 5.7 shooting is comparitively small. The reason it stays small is the lack of adoption and deployment because of said poor results of initial egagements. Something the terminal performance communty learned a long time ago, and one you should pay attention to, is it dont matter what all the eggspurts predict. What matters is how it actually works. You only find out how it actually works by investigating actual shootings. Please dont give me the handfull of positive incidents because the few cases of good performance do not give a relevent statistical datum. So field reports of poor performance + insufficient data = better proven choices to select. IF tomorrow EA or FN came out with a round that matched the ballistics of say mk318 ammo and proved its self in the field, Id be all in but until then, I will stick with my 1911 in .45 with gold dot based ammo. Im sure me and my measly 8 rounds can get the job done.

 

 

Shane,

 

I agree the data is small compared to more common pistol calibers but it is not nonexistent. I think I have provided numerous links to verifiable police shootings with the round as well as its efficacy against animals. I have also provided comparisons between the 5.7 and more common calibers in ballistics tests as well as against animals. Those that have spoken of failures in the line of duty have provided absolutely no verifiable data on their claims.

[SpeedKillz 0]

editing...

[SpeedKillz 0]

I agree with almost everything in this thread regarding the position of the OP from our forums standpoint, except for this statement.  It is my opinion that:

 

1 -  Most LE personnel I have encountered and know personally have a distinct lack of training.  I know several people who were worried if they would even pass their yearly qualification bc the only time they shoot their gun was during the test.  This doesn't involve the SWAT or special teams officers, I mean the everyday officer who might just be there for a check or the CSI who carries a gun but is really just there to process evidence.  This is obviously a generalization but these people do exist, I would argue in larger numbers than you would think.

 

2 - The few people I know that do actually use their weapon's on a frequent basis (one Ranger, one SEAL, two police officers on special units) are HIGHLY biased on what they use (likely bc they know it works and will not deviate from what they have/ are issued).  I think that "operators" are more likely to be biased based on that fact that they train extensively on either one or a limited number of platforms. 

 

I will also say that someone like Shane45 who has had the opportunity to shoot lots of different platforms or people like the guy from MAC on youtube have had the  benefit of running so many different systems that they can make an informed decision on how a firearm or specific round actually performs. 

 

In the end I will take their opinions over someone who has invested everything they have into one round or platform, ala speedkillz

 

You kind of made a big point for me. The Five-seveN is extremely accurate and flat shooting, very clean (when I clean my gun there is hardly any powder residue), and has very little recoil. If most of those police officers were given a Five-seveN, their scores would improve immediately (which is a good thing for the civilians on the street - bad thing for the thugs), and they would have in their holsters a weapon that has passed the FBI protocol for minimum penetration, the ability to penetrate body armor, and carry a round designed to dump all its energy as soon as it reaches soft tissue minimizing collateral damage. 

 

And Blake, I have not invested everything I have in one round/platform. I also own and shoot 7.62x25, 9mm, .357 .40, .45, 10mm, 5.56, 7.62x39, .308, 7.62x54r, .338LM, etc.

 

The diminutive 5.7x28 is no "medium game" round as one poster suggests. (Medium game is defined as 4-legged critters up to 350 lbs., with a minimum of 1,000 ft. lbs. on energy necessary for a humane and quick kill.) Any cartridge can be deployed with success under the right circumstances, based on an indivudual's highly developed skill level and sometimes with intentional/unintentional controlled circumstances. However, medium game doesn't shoot back, hence the trepidation by the LE commentators regarding this round.

 

The .22 Hornet, .222 Rem., 222 Rem. Mag., .223, .22 HighPower have been around decades longer than the 5.7x28, have better energy numbers than the newer round, yet none of them have taken the hunting world's medium game category by storm. It would be wishful thinking to assume that the new 5.7x28 would rise above them. All these cartridges dance in the varmint realm, the same place the 5.7x28 belongs.

 

And if the 5.7x28 was the panacea for all medium game animals, why are there so few commercial chamberings in modern rifles today? Didn't Savage just drop the chambering last year? Sorry, it's not taking the hunting world by storm anytime soon.

 

Nobody has said the 5.7 is taking the hunting world by storm...lol. The point being made is that people are surprised by the damage a little round like the 5.7 inflicts on animals it is not supposed to be able to take down. And no, these aren't all just head shots.

 

You know, I like the Five-seveN pistol...and I plan to own one for the hell of it...

I always liked the P90 and wish I were able to get one...

After handling a PS90 and finding out I can get a mock suppresor to cover that idiotic-looking extended 16" barrel, I even kinda want one of those...

I have airsoft versions of the Five-seveN pistol and P90, for whatever that's worth.  I think it is safe to say I don't dislike the 5.7x28. 

 

So, after saying all that, I really can't wait for you, SpeedKillz, to just be quiet. 

 

We get it. You're deeply, madly in love with the 5.7x28 cartridge.  Maybe it's the best thing ever since sliced bread.  Maybe it is the sleeper of the gun world. 

 

But we live in NJ.  We can't use a 20 or 30 round mag, so there goes the one major advantage of the pistol.  We either get the 10s, or neuter a 20 to 15.  I can get a 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .357sig "carry" gun (not like we can carry here, either) that holds 15...and I can buy any one of those cartridges locally today.  5.7...I haven't actually seen it locally yet....including before this whole mess started ~8 months ago.  You talking about armor penetrating this and that?  You're actively HURTING anyone who may want to own one...this state already doesn't like the Five-seveN...you're going to give them ammo to use against us?  Lets face facts...  In NJ, anything based on a 5.7x28 is neutered, loses any benefit it may have had as designed, and becomes just another expensive toy.  Albeit perhaps a fun toy, but a toy nonetheless.

 

I can copy write long paragraphs about this topic...but you're not going to change your mind...nor are you going to convince anyone else here that you're an expert and to take everything you say as gospel and 100% truth.  All you're doing is making 5.7 shooters seem like they have to convince everyone, themselves included, they made a wise choice...instead of going with a more tested and proven round.

 

It reeks of a sad desperation...and makes those of us who want a 5.7 gun seem guilty by association of this too...  So...enough already...

 

But hey, I'm probably just another keyboard commando, right?

 

I wouldn't say I am desperate - perhaps ambitious is a better word? Being motivated to argue about the efficacy of the 5.7 platform is easy when you have the facts I have. 

 

Again, if your eyes are tired of reading the words I am writing.. slowly back out of this thread and do not return. If you have OCD and cannot keep yourself from entering this thread then I apologize. 

 

I also want to say I hadn't thought about the restrictions in NJ when I entered this thread. I do not intend to fan the flames of a people who are losing their freedoms daily. I only intended to offer a rebuttal to the High Exposure dude who was approaching the issue obnoxiously. 

[RubberBullets 65]

I keep coming back because this show makes me giggle.

 

[SpeedKillz 0]

The following quotes are survivor's testimony in Hasan's article 32 hearing. They are public record and available to those that want to do some research. This hearing was discussed on fnforum.net and I have permission from the poster who compiled some of the relevant quotes to post it on here. I have found no copyright issue to exist with the following testimonies. 

 

http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/for...al-malik-hasa/

 

 

SGT. ALONZO M. LUNSFORD JR. 20 year Army veteran (worked at the Soldier Readiness Center )

"His first targets were members of the unit Hasan was scheduled to deploy with

to Afghanistan. I saw a physicians assistant lift a chair over his head to try and

stop Hasan and the Major turned, fired and brought the man down."

 

"I was in a crouched position, then prone, searching for a way out, then decided to

make a run for the exit."

 

When I got up Major Hasan and I made eye contact, he brings his weapon over

me - "He looked at me, I looked at him.

 

"The laser comes across my line of sight. And I closed my eyes. And I get hit

in the head, I spin around. turned toward the door, took two steps and dropped

and I hit the floor."

 

"The left side of my face was on the ground and I felt blood pooling around me,

but I could still see Hasan with my right eye. I did a "self assessment, realized I

could move my hands and feet, got up and ran out the doors."

 

 

The head shot he received was only a grazing wound however he still eventually lost sight in his left eye.

 

 

 

Quote:

MICHELLE HARPER (CIVILIAN ARMY EMPLOYEE) LAB TECHNICIAN

"I could hear the pop of his gunfire, and I saw one solder drop. I realized from 

the movements of his body that he had been hit three times."

Quote:

PFC GEORGE STRATTON

"As soon as I turned I saw Maj. Hasan behind me. He was holding an older-fashioned

pistol. As soon as I looked at him, he brought his magazine up and loaded it. He looked 

straight down at me, we made eye contact, and he brought his weapon down toward me.

I turned on him, and the weapon fired. It hit me in the left shoulder, my arm went limp." 

"I couldn't feel it at all."

 

"I then hit the ground, and crawled as fast as he could to the door."

 

 

 

High-speed 5.7 rounds seem to be especially devastating against hard objects like bones. They usually penetrate instead of glancing off. 

 

 

 

Quote:

Some witnesses testified that Michael Grant Cahill, a civilian physician 

assistant, and Capt. John Gaffaney, a psychiatric nurse preparing to 

deploy to Iraq, each were fatally shot after picking up chairs to try to 

stop Hasan.

 

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER II CHRISTOPHER ROYAL 

Testifying by telephone from Georgia.

 

"I went to one corner and looked for a way to pounce on the gunman.

I saw Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford run of the same door I escaped from, and 

during that time the shooter opened the door before Sergeant Lunsford 

got to the parking lot and he shot Sergeant Lunsford, and he fell face 

down into the grass."

 

I'm going to the building, he comes adjacent to the other side and sees me 

again, and he starts firing at me. I ran to a sport utility vehicle and took cover. 

Hasan bore down, squeezing off rounds. I felt something jump me in the back, 

but I wasn't sure what it was. Then I realized I'd been shot in the back."

 

 

 

He was shot in the back while hiding behind a sport utility vehicle? The gun was designed to penetrate. This example is a case in point.

 

 

 

Quote:

SPC. MEGAN MARTIN 467th Medical Detachment, the combat stress unit 

testifying via a video link from Kandahar, Afghanistan

"A captain from my unit charged the gunman with a folding chair. "But he wasn't 

fast enough (fighting tears), and he was shot at close range." 

 

"I focused on a man in fatigues and ripple-soled desert boots moving with a 

laser-sighted handgun near an area called station 13. The gunman sprayed 

bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion, before taking aim at individual soldiers.

 

When I saw a soldier near me was bleeding from the mouth, I hit the ground. 

But my eyes stayed riveted on the man with the pistol."

 

 

This spraying in a fanlike motion is most likely responsible for a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period. 

 

 

Quote:

SPC. JAMES ARMSTRONG (Shot twice)

 

"I was in a large seating area when I heard shooting and turned around to see

soldiers being shot and a chair thrown amid rapid gunfire before the shooter 

reloaded.

 

The scene was "the worst horror movie," with wounded soldiers leaving bloody

handprints on walls as they tried to get up and blood pooled on the floor where 

they lay dead."

Quote:

SPC. LOGAN BURNETT reserve combat stress unit

 

"I saw Capt. John Gaffane try to attack Hasan with a chair."

"I saw that captain fall. Even so, I decided to try to rush the gunman when I

saw a magazine drop from his pistol. "I stood up and grabbed a folding table.

"I turned to throw it toward the shooter. At that point I was struck in the hip

and fell down." 

 

"I was shot twice more, in the elbow and hand, as I tried to crawl for safety

into a cubicle. I glanced backward when I finally fled the building. "There was

no station 13 at that point. There was nothing but chairs scattered everywhere, 

bodies scattered everywhere, blood everywhere."

 

 

Another devastating bone shot. 

 

 

 

Quote:

STAFF SGT. JOY CLARK 467th Medical Detachment - combat medic and 

occupational therapist

 

"I was sitting between a veteran psychiatric nurse, Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, and

Capt. Russell Seager, when the gunfire erupted, Warman pulled me down to the 

ground, and we lay facing each other on the floor of the center.

 

"Then I heard her cry. I reached over her side to see if I could feel the wound. 

And my hand came back bloody. I heard more shots, saw Seager had stopped 

moving, felt for the officers' pulses. There were none. I saw a soldier fall in front 

of me "convulsing and coughing up blood," and reached to pull him toward me.

That is when she felt a sting in my left forearm, "and I lost my hold on his jacket."

 

The gunfire shattered her bone.

 

 

 

Another shot to the bone.

 

 

 

Quote:

CAPT. MELISSA KALE 467th Medical Detachment 

Testifying via live feed from Afghanistan

 

(Crying) Sgt. Amy Krueger, had been shot Nov. 5 after a gunman began 

spraying bullets in the Army post's Soldier Readiness Processing Center.

 

"I wanted to get to the east wall. I tried to pull (her) with me. I was unable 

to pull her. She didn't move, so I had to leave her there."

 

MAJOR ERIC TORINA

 

"I saw Maj. Libardo Caraveo killed while sitting in the waiting area of the 

processing center. "I saw Maj. Caraveo was sitting like he was before,

with his legs crossed and his head down, almost like he was sleeping. 

But I noticed a bullet hole in his head that was dripping blood."

 

 

 

This conjures up a very chilling image...

 

 

 

Quote:

SPC. GRANT MOXON

"I was shot in the leg when I saw my (467th) squad leader go down. 

I lay across Staff Sgt. Shawn Manning to protect him from getting hit 

again. He was bleeding pretty badly. I kind of tried to help him."

 

Staff Sgt. Manning survived.

Quote:

SPC. LANCE AVILES

 

"There was a loud shout, 'Allahu akbar,' and then gunshots. 

 

"I initially thought the shooting was a training exercise."

 

Aviles testified to a sense of shocked realization that the attack was real.

 

"I saw friends and fellow soldiers lying on the floor in pools of blood. I saw a soldier

lying on the floor with part of his skull damaged (the GI later died). One soon died 

of a bullet wound to the head. I saw Hasan quickly reload a black handgun.

"I considered trying to tackle Hasan after seeing the left side of my battle buddy's

head blown open. I thought I might be able to charge as the shooter reloaded.

But the gunman switched magazines too quickly. I looked up where the shooter 

was and I seen the magazine drop and so when the magazine dropped I got up.

I'm trying to take a left turn to go toward the shooter, and when I took that left turn,

he had already reloaded."

 

"I jumped under a table...

 

 

 

The advantage, and in this case tragedy, of a semi-automatic firearm with very large capacity...

 

 

 

Quote:

SPC. JOSEPH FOSTER (testifying via video feed from Kandahar,

Afghanistan)

 

"I was texting a friend."

 

"The shooter spoke with a "strong, stern voice, like a drill instructor." 

"I heard the man shout out "Allahu Akbar" -- Arabic for "God is great" 

and then felt the shooter's attention turn to him. The weapon came in 

my direction, the laser came across my eyes. I fell to the ground and 

I felt sharp pain in my hip."

 

 

 

Bone penetration.

 

 

 

[SpeedKillz 0]

 

Quote:

TED COUKOULIS (CIVILIAN NURSE)
"When it was apparent that the shooter had left the building, I rushed to begin treating 
the wounded. There was so much blood on the floor, and so many shell casings 
submerged in it, that I kept slipping and falling. Soldiers were dying all around station 13.
I saw a lieutenant colonel bleeding out so fast that "it was like a soaker hose you would 
have in your garden, the amount of blood coming out in a perfect line." 

I had to use my sweat shirt to keep wiping my face because so much blood was spurting 
as others gave another dying soldier cardiopulmonary resuscitation."

 

 

 

This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas.
 

 

Quote:

SGT. 1ST CLASS MARIA GUERRA (BUILDING MANAGER)
"The shooter reloaded three times before moving from the front area, "in one 
motion, dropping a magazine and up came another one." After the rampage 
ended, I locked the doors to make sure the gunman would not come back 
inside. I saw the carnage amid the room darkened by thick smoke from the gunfire.
"All I saw was soldiers, just bodies all over the floor - bodies and blood. 
No one was moving."

Quote:

STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I was shot in the back as I crawled from beneath a desk."

CROSS EXAMINATION
DEFENSE Attorney Lt. Col. Kris Poppe


STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I didn't see the shooter, the bullet may have pierced the cubicle wall before 
hitting me."

 

 

 

I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all unless it hits bone.

 

 

Quote:

MAJOR STEPHEN RICHTER (ARMY MEDICAL CORPS)
testifying via video link from South Korea
"I thought the rapid rate of gunfire meant there was more than one shooter.

 

 

 

A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers. 146 shots of .40 or .45 caliber loads in less than 10 mins. is going to affect your aim. 

What am I trying to prove with all of this? I guess I am just responding to those who would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic smg.

 

 

Quote:

OFFICER KIMBERLY MUNLEY
When she first saw the gunman walking with his gun extended, I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire.” 

The gunman retreated behind a building, she testified, so I went to a corner and got in a prone position to wait for a clear shot. Before long, the gunman came toward me, shooting, so I fired back, aiming for the gunman’s “center mass” in a bid “to stop the threat.” 

"I took cover behind a building whose rainspout was peppered by Hasan's gunshots, spraying me with shrapnel. Shards of metal from the gutter hit me in one hand. I could see the gunman round the corner and closing on me. 

“I quickly got up, got into a shooting stance,” I fired back, aiming for "center mass," 
I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm 
handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked 
me to the ground. 

He moved away from me and encountered Officer Todd, who ordered Hasan several 
times to drop his gun."

Kimberly Munley had surgery for wounds in her hand, hip and included a femur 
shattered into 120 pieces,

 

 

 

Again, devastating bone damage.

"I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire."

That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards.

The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta? 

 

 

Quote:

OFFICER MARK TODD

"I arrived at the processing center parking lot shortly after Officer Munley. 
As I ran up a small rise, following my partner, I could hear so much gunfire 
echoing around the four buildings that it sounded like “thousands of rounds going off.” 

"I too was directed to the gunman by soldiers."

When I spotted the gunman, I shouted repeated commands to surrender, but the 
gunman opened fire. The gunman retreated around a corner of the building, 
and I then heard more volleys that sounded like they were coming from different 
weapons. 

"I followed and soon saw the gunman standing by a telephone pole."

20 feet away from the downed and wounded Officer Munley, trying to crawl
for her weapon, Officer Mark Todd confronts the gunman.

I challenged him — 'Halt! Military police! Drop your weapon

At that moment, I saw the gunman's red targeting laser fixed on me.
The gunman got off several shots.

I returned fire five times from my Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol.

"I seen him wince a couple times. He collapsed and slid down against
a telephone pole. "I ran up, rushed him. I kicked the weapon
away, flipped him over to handcuff him and placed him in hand irons."

I began emergency medical treatment. I started checking his vitals to try to 
save his life.

Emergency rescue crews then took over, and I left the gunman to help 
wounded soldiers. But fire, I recovered a semiautomatic pistol, a revolver
and several magazines loaded with rounds.

When I reached into Hasan’s pants pockets, I found he still had an arsenal,
loaded magazines for his Herstal semiautomatic and an unused revolver 
along with a cellphone."

The revolver apparently was not fired during the rampage.

 

 

 

Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN.  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all   It is widely believed that Hasan was shot in the back.


 

 

Quote:

FREDERICK BRANNON (Former Salesman at the Guns Galore in Killeen, Tx)
"Nidal Hasan walked into the area's largest gun store, Guns Galore. He drew 
attention by asking which handgun in the store was "the most high-tech." 
The manager, after a little head scratching, came up with the FN 5.7 pistol." 
Hasan left that day, saying that he had to look up the weapon. The next day, 
Aug. 1, 2009, he bought the gun, an expensive laser sight, several magazine 
extenders and boxes of the armor-piercing ammo. That, too, was odd because 
Hasan took out a cell phone and made a video of the manager's demonstration 
of how to load the new pistol, remove its magazine and break it down for cleaning.

"I'd never seen any other customer make such a video. Hasan said that "he wanted 
to review it later."

"Hasan was told that the SS192 cartridges were becoming less available and that 
once the store exhausted its supply, Hasan would have to buy a less penetrating 
version."

"Hasan reappeared every week or two to buy more magazines, magazine extenders 
and four or five boxes of ammo – usually the penetrating 55192 rounds and extra 
magazines for the gun. 

"When I asked Hasan why he was buying so many magazines, Hasan told him he
didn't like spending time loading magazines at the shooting range and preferred to 
have a large supply."

"Hasan bought a top-end green laser sight for daytime shooting."

Quote:

SPC WILLIAM GILBERT 
"I was browsing at the store and I was asked to tell Hasan about the 
weapon, because I own a Herstal FN 5.7. I "tried to kind of feel [Hasan] 
out" about what he would do with a handgun. Hasan was vague, saying
that he wanted something high-tech with the biggest magazine possible." 
"He did not know what he was looking for. He did not know about handguns." 

"Based on Hasan's requirements — he wanted something technologically 
advanced and with a large magazine capacity — I advised Hasan to buy 
the FN 5-7, which uses magazines that can be extended to hold 30 rounds.
It's extremely lightweight and very, very, very accurate. It's easy to fire and 
has minimal recoil." 

"I own the same weapon and am a gun aficionado."

"I explained that the FN had a 20-round magazine capable of being fitted 
with extenders to hold 30 bullets. The gun was light and "very, very easy 
to fire with one hand, like shooting a .22." I explained that one of the 
weapon's three types of ammunition, the 55192 round, had such penetrating 
capabilities that authorities ordered it off the market after existing stocks were 
sold. I told Hasan that the round was thought to be able to penetrate Kevlar 
armor and expand on hitting flesh, "basically liquefying anything ... in that area." 

"I spent nearly an hour talking to Hasan."

 

 

[njpilot 671]

 Those that have spoken of failures in the line of duty have provided absolutely no verifiable data on their claims.

Yeah. you're right. It's a conspiracy. all the LEO that had failures lied about it. There is no "verifiable data on their claims".

 

Therefore, they must be lying, just to malign your precious little 5.7. Geez.