pjd832 146 Posted August 6, 2013 Hold on to your seats the fuel to fire another full court press on gun control... http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=19877592&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F A gunman with a property dispute showed up at a Ross Township, Pa., supervisors' meeting and opened fire tonight, shooting apparently at random before he was subdued by two attendees, a witness and Monroe County officials said........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Respect2A 0 Posted August 6, 2013 Sorry for the dead but has anyone ever had to deal with property issues and a town? It's horrific. You think our legal system is maddening and a joke? Try dealing with a town council and some of the depts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RS1200XL 4 Posted August 6, 2013 http://m.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130610/NEWS/306100327&template=wapart Not justifying whst he did, but it seems like they made this guy's life a living hell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tony357 386 Posted August 6, 2013 http://m.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130610/NEWS/306100327&template=wapart Not justifying whst he did, but it seems like they made this guy's life a living hell. yep, it can certainly push you over the edge, they obviously did not want this guy living there.. But you cannot just go shooting people up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shawnmoore81 623 Posted August 6, 2013 It's a shame but it looks like some a-holes got what was coming. Township officials think they can just do what ever they want with no repercussions. They ruined a guys life. Over what? They didn't like the view? It's a same it had to go that way but they get no sympathy here. Just look at the way nj treats us. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
67gtonut 847 Posted August 6, 2013 It's a shame but it looks like some a-holes got what was coming. Township officials think they can just do what ever they want with no repercussions. They ruined a guys life. Over what? They didn't like the view? It's a same it had to go that way but they get no sympathy here. Just look at the way nj treats us. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD 3 people died...... and they got what was coming to them? seriously? They deserved to DIE over this? What is wrong with you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted August 6, 2013 3 people died...... and they got what was coming to them? seriously? They deserved to DIE over this? What is wrong with you? I dont agree that anybody deserved to die, and the shooter was absolutely wrong. I think the point shawn might be trying to make is that after a while of the government taking a taking, taxing, telling you what you can and cant do, and taxing some more... people get to their breaking point. And I think that is what we see here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 264 Posted August 6, 2013 It's a shame but it looks like some a-holes got what was coming. Township officials think they can just do what ever they want with no repercussions. They ruined a guys life. Over what? They didn't like the view? It's a same it had to go that way but they get no sympathy here. Just look at the way nj treats us. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Are you kidding me? Do me a favor... the next time you have such an incredibly stupid idea such as this one, keep it to yourself. Unbelievable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Respect2A 0 Posted August 6, 2013 I dont agree that anybody deserved to die, and the shooter was absolutely wrong. I think the point shawn might be trying to make is that after a while of the government taking a taking, taxing, telling you what you can and cant do, and taxing some more... people get to their breaking point. And I think that is what we see here. I agree, thats what I think Shawn was trying to get at, I dont think he worded it very well though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSD1026 48 Posted August 6, 2013 on a very public internet GUN FORUM, i think choosing words is a bit more important.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Respect2A 0 Posted August 6, 2013 on a very public internet GUN FORUM, i think choosing words is a bit more important.. It sure is, but it's not my problem if someone says stupid shit and gets locked up or their FID taken away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUTGERS95 889 Posted August 6, 2013 3 people died...... and they got what was coming to them? seriously? They deserved to DIE over this? What is wrong with you? everytime I see that goat all I want to do is go out and buy one! change your damn avatar before you cost me some serious coin...lol agree, no one deserves to die over this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shawnmoore81 623 Posted August 6, 2013 Look around on YouTube of videos during counsel meetings. How many people aren't allowed to talk, get thrown out by police or are totally ignored. These people they think they are above everyone else. They did whatever they could to ruin a guys life. Probably laughed about it too off the record. Well it's not a joke. You can't push people like this. Yet they do everyday. This guy went from having a paid off property to living in a fierro. This is ok to you? Why because the government stole it and not some street criminal? How many of you would grab your gun to protect your house from someone robbing it? Well?? Bottom line is there are consequences to your actions. He killed people so the consequences would be jail. These people acted and didn't think of the consequences. Well there is one of the ways it could have ended. Yes it shouldn't have went that way but I still have no sympathy. A good bit of the problems in this country are due to people thinking there aren't any consequences. It goes from the president all the way down to a brat kid who was never told no. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbeattie 0 Posted August 6, 2013 Who stopped the shooter? An armed citizen with their own gun. How many would have been killed if it was NJ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted August 6, 2013 I get what Shawn is saying but I would never condone a shooting like this. Believe me, as a property owner of a decent amount of property I have watched town meetings with interest. It gets ugly. The last thing anyone would want is to have what they worked for their whole life or had in their family for generations just yanked away at the stroke of a pen. We had a large town meeting when it was found out that Route "A" of the Susquehanna-Roseland powerline project was passing through town. The farmers and other land owners quite literally came with their torches and pitchforks to a large meeting in the firehouse. It was pretty damned angry, and the worst were the smirking bureaucrats who really didn't seem like they gave a flying flip about us. And really, the whole idea of requiring a permit to do things to your own damn property irks me to no end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Respect2A 0 Posted August 6, 2013 and the worst were the smirking bureaucrats who really didn't seem like they gave a flying flip about us. They dont Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DbleTrouble 8 Posted August 6, 2013 Maybe this issue pushed the man over the edge but that is no reason to kill random people. This guy could have used a gun or a car or anything else in that matter to make his point. Think about finding yourself in a situation when a guy pushed over the edge walks into a room and starts shooting. That is the situation when a concealed carry would make a choice between life and death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted August 6, 2013 Maybe this issue pushed the man over the edge but that is no reason to kill random people. This guy could have used a gun or a car or anything else in that matter to make his point. Think about finding yourself in a situation when a guy pushed over the edge walks into a room and starts shooting. That is the situation when a concealed carry would make a choice between life and death. It looks like Concealed carry did prevent this from turning into a large mass shooting. 3 people dead so it barely qualifies as one, but sandy hook or columbine it is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shawnmoore81 623 Posted August 6, 2013 I thought they got his gun from him. Not a cc Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob2222 316 Posted August 6, 2013 I thought they got his gun from him. Not a cc That's how I read it, too. "Bernie Kozen was there tending to the man and [Newell] didn't see them," Reber said, according to the Record. "Bernie bear-hugged him and took him down. He shot [the shooter] with his own gun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,129 Posted August 6, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM And now Newell has a place to live for the rest of his life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Urban Grunt 44 Posted August 6, 2013 I believe they shot him with his own gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted August 6, 2013 It's confusing the way it is worded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Contrvlr 17 Posted August 6, 2013 "Bernie bear-hugged him and took him down. He shot [the shooter] with his own gun." Imagine if it had been a HD scenario here The threat is downed , disarmed and then shot with his own gun Bernie would be in deep fecal matter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pythagoras 2 Posted August 6, 2013 "Bernie bear-hugged him and took him down. He shot [the shooter] with his own gun." Imagine if it had been a HD scenario here The threat is downed , disarmed and then shot with his own gun Bernie would be in deep fecal matter This ^^. I'm not sure lethal force is justified after the shooter is disarmed. Then again, it's impossible to know if the shooter has another gun/other weapon/bomb on him. Not as clear-cut as some would make it out to be. I'm amazed the media is covering this since the problem was SOLVED with a GUN. In actuality, this should be an argument FOR concealed carry! Had Bernie been carrying, he would not have needed to tackle the gunman first: he could have taken down the shooter from behind cover at a safe distance. (of course, you guys all know that already) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usnmars 136 Posted August 6, 2013 I have friends that were at the meeting. They are calling me tonight with the true story of what happened and then I'll post here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soju 153 Posted August 6, 2013 Guy tries to upgrade and maintain property. Town tells him no unless he pays them for permits. Guy has no money for all these permits, is unable to maintain property. Town tells guy he has to keep the property maintained or they will take his property. Guy is forced to spend money fighting town just to keep property, goes broke. Town takes guys property. Guy goes to town to kill those who took his property. Had those who worked for the town had any human decency, instead of stringing this guy out for every nickel and dime he had, could have just gave him the permits required to maintain his property and this all would have been avoided. The guy has a place to live. The town doesn't have to deal with him. Everybody goes on their merry way. Greed. Greed and power. Doing the right thing has no part in things these days it would appear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carguy3j 0 Posted August 6, 2013 People always talk about consequences of actions. People also often tend to ignore consequences of actions in regards to politics and bureaucrats. Well it is sad that three people lost their lives. I don't know them, and I don't know their involvement with Newell. But it seems plainly obvious that members of that town council broke him. When you feel you have been wronged, have exhausted all civil, legal, and peaceful options, are thrown out of your own property, have no money, and nothing left, what are you left with to do in order to 'right the wrong'. Sadly the only option is force. 3 people are dead because this was a man with nothing left, and nothing left to live for, quite literally. I in no way condone his actions, but I'm not sure I can blame him for the circumstances. As a number of people have made note to, at least indirectly, is that because of a lack of caring on the part of some bureaucrats, bureaucrats died. That is about as simple as it appears to be, with the current information. What is more sad, is this will be used as an example to allow for those very bureaucrats to have more power, and more control. They deserve less! Yes. I mean what did they expect? Oh wait, they expected he would just wither under the mighty authority of the municipal mafia, and quietly go away while they stole his property? (And yes, they definitely stole it. Those town officials are criminals!) http://nj1015.com/two-shot-dead-at-pa-municipal-building/ "11:41 a.m. - Newell has been arraigned on homicide charges and charged with three counts of homicide and two counts of attempted homicide. At the arraignment, a judge asked if he owned any property and Newell said: “No, they stole it from me. That’s what started all this.”" I also have to disagree with a couple of other points: 1.) It's sad that (2), not (3) ,people died. Namely the 2 who appeared to be innocent bystanders "Gerard J. Kozic, 53, was pronounced dead at the scene. He was a musician who performed on the White House lawn in 2004. James LaGuardia, 64, owned a television repair service and was outside the municipal building when he was shot and killed." It would appear that these two were just residents at the meeting for their own purposes, and not guilty in this mans land theft. For them, I can not condone his actions. He should have exercised better discretion in limiting his targets to the criminals posing a threat to his survival (the town officials), and perhaps those directly attempting to intervene. In regards to the 3rd "victim", "5:20 p.m. - Details emerge on the shooting victims. David Fleetwood, 62, was a Chestnuthill Township Supervisor who doubled as the Ross Township Zoning Officer. He died after being flown to the hospital." : He doesn't count as a victim, and its not sad. Being the zoning officer, he was an accessory to the crimes being committed against Mr. Newell. The zoning officer, and any other town agents (municipal mafia members/enforcers) posed just as much of a deadly threat to Mr. Newell's continued survival as if they had held a gun to HIS head. This one did get what he had coming. Perhaps his replacement, and counterparts in other towns, will hesitate just a bit before backing a citizen into a similar corner again, or knowingly robbing a human being of everything they have, over some silly self-important words on a nearly worthless "code" book. Make no mistake, the town already used deadly force against him, when it took all he had, and made him homeless. Just because it didn't involve the direct use of a physical weapon, don't think that it was not an act of force which threatened Mr. Newell's life. "11:30 a.m. – KYW TV tweets that according to an affidavit of the shooter he was heard to say he wished he had killed more people. The Pocono Record reports that court papers also say he targeted meeting because it was only time could get supervisors, solicitor in single location: court papers." 2.) I do sort-of condone his actions. Someone has to be brave enough to fight back. I just wish he would have gone about it with a little more focus. He started off with a perfectly reasonable ( and justifiable) plan. The problem is when he started just shooting randomly. If he had stuck to only those who truly posed a threat (town officials involved in the attacks on him/his property as well as those who might try to intervene today), I would call him a patriotic hero, fighting back against a government run-a-muck, with the only thing they understand: the use of force. Unfortunately, he got sloppy, lost focus, and lost the moral high ground, with the random shooting, and killing of the 2 un-involved people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikelets456 78 Posted August 7, 2013 Are you kidding me? Do me a favor... the next time you have such an incredibly stupid idea such as this one, keep it to yourself. Unbelievable.The irony of this, is the shooter was an Obama voter...he voted for bigger government ...irony. Anyway, what he did was stupid but i can attest townships can and do push the tyranny button quite often. A lot of these people are pushing the envelope and I hate to say it, they only listen to power. However, this stupid act will make more laws, more restrictions and push us further into a corner. People are fed up with the government bullying, taxing and making our lives a living hell whenever we want to do something to OUR property. Keep pushing and we push back. Btw, it sounds as if this has been going on for 20 plus years of township bullying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites