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"Mental health" bill, now law. Clarification?

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I believe it is really only an issue if you were treated by a State hospital or facility.  The State does not have access to your private doctor's medical records.

 

Yes they do.  Remember obamacare?  All medical records are now in a central database.

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Yes they do.  Remember obamacare?  All medical records are now in a central database.

 

HIPPA laws protect any records not dealing with involuntary commitment or adjudication as a mental defective.  That's how it works, NJ law can't trump federal law.  Additionally, in regard to sharing of medical records under Obamacare, it's a matter of not signing up for the government program.  http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/obamacare-will-share-your-private-medical-records-with-government-bureaucrats/

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HIPPA laws protect any records not dealing with involuntary commitment or adjudication as a mental defective.  That's how it works, NJ law can't trump federal law.  Additionally, in regard to sharing of medical records under Obamacare, it's a matter of not signing up for the government program.  http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/obamacare-will-share-your-private-medical-records-with-government-bureaucrats/

 

It doesn't matter if you sign up for the government program.  I am under my employers insurance policy and for the last 2 years my doctor no longer uses paper files, everything is online now.

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HIPPA laws protect any records not dealing with involuntary commitment or adjudication as a mental defective.  That's how it works, NJ law can't trump federal law.  Additionally, in regard to sharing of medical records under Obamacare, it's a matter of not signing up for the government program.  http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/obamacare-will-share-your-private-medical-records-with-government-bureaucrats/

 

I pray what you and kman say is true. There are others who are saying that NJ will in fact violate HIPAA to do this.

 

But you are right, NJ cannot turmp Federal law.

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It doesn't matter if you sign up for the government program.  I am under my employers insurance policy and for the last 2 years my doctor no longer uses paper files, everything is online now.

 

Just because your doctor's office uses electronic files doesn't mean they're "online" or centrally managed or shared. 

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It doesn't matter if you sign up for the government program.  I am under my employers insurance policy and for the last 2 years my doctor no longer uses paper files, everything is online now.

 

There's a difference between having your records on you doctor's computer and them being released to the government.  Here's a quote from another article on the matter: 

 

"A new 253-page Obamacare rule issued late Friday requires state, federal and local agencies as well as health insurers to swap the protected personal health information of anybody seeking to join the new health care program that will be enforced by the Internal Revenue Service.  Protected health information, or PHI, is highly protected under federal law, but the latest ruling from the Department of Health and Human Services allows agencies to trade the information to verify that Obamacare applicants are getting the minimum amount of health insurance coverage they need from the health 'exchanges.'"

 

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/all-da-king-s-men/all-da-king-s-men-1.297964/speaking-of-privacy-what-about-obamacare-1.406797

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You guys keep living in a dream world, don't forget who is in the white house.  The moment your medical records make it to a central database, as have already are, the government will use them anyway they want, legal or not.  And the records are not on my doctors personal computer, the first time I saw this I asked her about it.  She told me they now had to enter all medical information into a central database for the purpose of insurance filing as well as make the information available for other medical instituion that you might visit in the future, basically eliminating the need for one doctor to fax medical records to another.

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You guys keep living in a dream world, don't forget who is in the white house.  The moment your medical records make it to a central database, as have already are, the government will use them anyway they want, legal or not.  And the records are not on my doctors personal computer, the first time I saw this I asked her about it.  She told me they now had to enter all medical information into a central database for the purpose of insurance filing as well as make the information available for other medical instituion that you might visit in the future, basically eliminating the need for one doctor to fax medical records to another.

 

Yes, more doctor's are putting records on a database in order to work with insurers and other doctors, but it is not related to Obamacare and it is not a government database.

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Wait a minute. I thought there were people here clamoring for tightening mental health checks after Newtown? Do I detect a bit of buyer's remorse? I friggin told you so.

 

yup. naive. 

 

And people already reporting on FB that they are running into this roadblock.... for example.... FID denied because as a minor was voluntarily committed and diagnosed with ADD.  And this was happening BEFORE the law was signed...  this was already in place, classic progressive fascist BS.

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Here is the bill:

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2012/Bills/A4000/3717_R2.HTM

 

The bill is essentially an amendment of an earlier enacted statute, so the new stuff is in brackets and underlined.

 

It is very vague.  It basically 1) adds an exception to the confidentiality of mental health records (to allow them to be transmitted to the NICS system), 2) says that the records the state does have shall be transmitted to NICS, and 3) says that the NJ Attorney General needs to work with the Superintendent of the State Police and the Administrative Office of the Courts to determine who is barred under federal or state law from possessing firearms, and transmit that to the NICS system.

 

So it is very very vague.  I wonder what, if anything, NICS is going to be able to do with (2) above - a huge stack of miscellaneous records.  Are they going to comb through them and try and find names?

 

The big thing here is (3) above.  The NJSP, NJAG and NJ Court Administrative Office is going to get together and comb the medical records and grab names and submit them to NICS.  This could turn into a huge dump of names.  If these records lack social security numbers or driver license numbers, a lot of people are going to have their names added to the NICS banned list because they have the same name as someone appearing in one of these records.

 

The statute doesn't say how far back they are going to go, and how specifically the records have to ID the person beyond simple name.  No indication that they need to identify a SS number or DL number, or anything else.  There is no standard in the bill as to how definitely someone has to be identified by the records, or whether they were committed by a judge or sought treatment on a voluntary basis, whether they were actually staying at the place or just an outpatient, or anything really.  This could just turn out to be one huge dump of names into the NICS system.

 

Doesn't look like private psychologist records would be affected here though.  It only addresses people getting help in a "noncorrectional instutiton under Title 30 of the Revised Statutes" which I believe are NJ State psychiatric facilities.

 

 

Quoting because this is the most cogent summary of the situation. The only thing to add is if it does wind up creating a bunch of false positive denials, you can appeal at the federal level, and the federal laws about what counts have not changed. It'll probably be a huge PITA though if this snags you. 

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Just because your doctor's office uses electronic files doesn't mean they're "online" or centrally managed or shared. 

Yes and no... Currently the whole EMR (electronic medical records) issue is a giant cluster f@ck, of many different competing incompatible systems. Doctor A. may have your records in THEIR electronic database, but for now, it is unlikely that that database can communicate with Dr B.'s office (unless they bought the same software, and wanted/paid for the ability to communicate), or any hospital, the government,etc... Hell, half the time they aren't able to electronically submit bills to the insurance companies, because of various "glitches". HOWEVER, as "Obamacare" ramps up, and Medicare "meaningful use" (of EMR) regulations kick in, all of these medical providers will be FORCED to make their systems compatible, or face the loss of eligibility to collect payment from Medicare. Of course, private insurers often model their reimbursement policies around Medicare as well. In addition, beyond any insurance issue, the whole "medical home" concept that is being pushed, pretty much requires/depends on the seamless transfer of medical records between various providers involved in your care. So, it IS coming, one way or another. Its just a matter of how long it takes for everybody to "play nice" with each other.

 

 

I pray what you and kman say is true. There are others who are saying that NJ will in fact violate HIPAA to do this.

 

But you are right, NJ cannot turmp Federal law.

When I first heard Christie signed this bill, and I saw people mentioning HIPPA, I breathed a sigh of relief. I figured someone WOULD sue the state on those grounds and get this bill overturned. Then I thought a little more. The forms one signs when applying for a FIPD WAIVE your HIPPA rights. From NJSP form SP-066 (Mental Health Consent form):

 

"I, __________________________________________________ am aware of my rights under N.J.S.A. 30:4-24.3, and the

Health Insurance Portability and Insurance Accountability Act (HIPAA), 45 C.F.R. 164.50, and consent to the disclosure of
my mental health records to the Chief of Police and the Superintendent of State Police, or their designees, for the purpose of
verifying my firearms permit application and my fitness to own a firearm under N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3. I understand that copies
of this authorization shall be considered sufficient authorization for the release of records."
 
The "out" for them to give the records to feds/NICS system is the portion I highlighted in red. We're screwed. It would seem that Orwell is becoming less of a fiction writer, and more of a prophet of the future.........

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Yes and no... Currently the whole EMR (electronic medical records) issue is a giant cluster f@ck, of many different competing incompatible systems. Doctor A. may have your records in THEIR electronic database, but for now, it is unlikely that that database can communicate with Dr B.'s office (unless they bought the same software, and wanted/paid for the ability to communicate), or any hospital, the government,etc... Hell, half the time they aren't able to electronically submit bills to the insurance companies, because of various "glitches". HOWEVER, as "Obamacare" ramps up, and Medicare "meaningful use" (of EMR) regulations kick in, all of these medical providers will be FORCED to make their systems compatible, or face the loss of eligibility to collect payment from Medicare. Of course, private insurers often model their reimbursement policies around Medicare as well. In addition, beyond any insurance issue, the whole "medical home" concept that is being pushed, pretty much requires/depends on the seamless transfer of medical records between various providers involved in your care. So, it IS coming, one way or another. Its just a matter of how long it takes for everybody to "play nice" with each other.

Agreed.. right now EMR is a very loose set of disjointed systems.  Obamacare will require in some cases, recommend/extort in others greater integration if it moves forward.  Combine that with the NSA/internet spy thing and nobody should feel comfortable with this type of thing.  That may be in doubt, however.. seems some of the efforts to repeal/modify Obamacare have been gaining traction lately...not that I'm holding my breath.

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Yes and no... Currently the whole EMR (electronic medical records) issue is a giant cluster f@ck, of many different competing incompatible systems. Doctor A. may have your records in THEIR electronic database, but for now, it is unlikely that that database can communicate with Dr B.'s office (unless they bought the same software, and wanted/paid for the ability to communicate), or any hospital, the government,etc... Hell, half the time they aren't able to electronically submit bills to the insurance companies, because of various "glitches". HOWEVER, as "Obamacare" ramps up, and Medicare "meaningful use" (of EMR) regulations kick in, all of these medical providers will be FORCED to make their systems compatible, or face the loss of eligibility to collect payment from Medicare. Of course, private insurers often model their reimbursement policies around Medicare as well. In addition, beyond any insurance issue, the whole "medical home" concept that is being pushed, pretty much requires/depends on the seamless transfer of medical records between various providers involved in your care. So, it IS coming, one way or another. Its just a matter of how long it takes for everybody to "play nice" with each other.

 

 

When I first heard Christie signed this bill, and I saw people mentioning HIPPA, I breathed a sigh of relief. I figured someone WOULD sue the state on those grounds and get this bill overturned. Then I thought a little more. The forms one signs when applying for a FIPD WAIVE your HIPPA rights. From NJSP form SP-066 (Mental Health Consent form):

 

"I, __________________________________________________ am aware of my rights under N.J.S.A. 30:4-24.3, and the

Health Insurance Portability and Insurance Accountability Act (HIPAA), 45 C.F.R. 164.50, and consent to the disclosure of
my mental health records to the Chief of Police and the Superintendent of State Police, or their designees, for the purpose of
verifying my firearms permit application and my fitness to own a firearm under N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3. I understand that copies
of this authorization shall be considered sufficient authorization for the release of records."
 
The "out" for them to give the records to feds/NICS system is the portion I highlighted in red. We're screwed. It would seem that Orwell is becoming less of a fiction writer, and more of a prophet of the future.........

 

http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/sp-066.pdf

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Ok, so how many members here have been confined for a mental disorder or are habitual drunkard AND cannot get a doctor to certify that you are now sane enough to handle a firearm?

 

PLEASE DON'T ANSWER THAT!

 

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.5 Prerequisites for a permit to purchase handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card

(a) A permit to purchase a handgun, or a firearm purchaser identification card, shall not be issued to any person: . . .

 

3. To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him or her to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms;

. . .

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.6 Exception for physical disability, mental disorder or alcoholism

A permit or identification card may be issued to a person who had previously suffered from a physical defect or disease, or mental disorder, or was an alcoholic if the applicant provides a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that it would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms.

 

Current law seems pretty clear and works other than we currently depend on snail mail reports being sent between the local PD and the county health department(s). If the reporting of a clear mental health record was electronic and instant, P2P COULD be approved much faster.

 

Just playing devil's advocate and presenting another side, so discussion is appreciated, but flaming is not.

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Ok, so how many members here have been confined for a mental disorder or are habitual drunkard AND cannot get a doctor to certify that you are now sane enough to handle a firearm?PLEASE DON'T ANSWER THAT!N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.5 Prerequisites for a permit to purchase handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card(a) A permit to purchase a handgun, or a firearm purchaser identification card, shall not be issued to any person: . . .3. To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him or her to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms;. . .N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.6 Exception for physical disability, mental disorder or alcoholismA permit or identification card may be issued to a person who had previously suffered from a physical defect or disease, or mental disorder, or was an alcoholic if the applicant provides a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that it would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms.Current law seems pretty clear and works other than we currently depend on snail mail reports being sent between the local PD and the county health department(s). If the reporting of a clear mental health record was electronic and instant, P2P COULD be approved much faster. Just playing devil's advocate and presenting another side, so discussion is appreciated, but flaming is not.

As we know, NJ makes the laws vague enough for the LIBERAL judges and scum lawyers to (then) define what it means. Therefore it may take several years for the laws to have a clearer definition. That being said, the mental health check is the bill that concerned the most (terrorist watch list also concerns me).

 

This bill can be abused in so many ways it's scary. From violating HIPPA laws, to home inspections, to massive delays in processing. It will all be justified in the name of safety and always referencing Newtown. If this bill is coupled in with the Sweeny bill it will be a nightmare.

 

I don't we'll get clarity on this bill until a township gets sued, it goes to court and some liberal judge rules that what the township did was justified. Either way, once again law abiders get screwed.

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As we know, NJ makes the laws vague enough for the LIBERAL judges and scum lawyers to (then) define what it means. Therefore it may take several years for the laws to have a clearer definition. That being said, the mental health check is the bill that concerned the most (terrorist watch list also concerns me).

 

This bill can be abused in so many ways it's scary. From violating HIPPA laws, to home inspections, to massive delays in processing. It will all be justified in the name of safety and always referencing Newtown. If this bill is coupled in with the Sweeny bill it will be a nightmare.

 

I don't we'll get clarity on this bill until a township gets sued, it goes to court and some liberal judge rules that what the township did was justified. Either way, once again law abiders get screwed.

Well, you didn't actually think they were going to pass something that would affect criminals, did you?

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Now that Christie vetoed the rest of the bills (thank God), we must do two things: go on the offensive to expand our 2A rights here in NJ, and figure out what these new laws actually mean.

 

So far I've seen a divide in what people are interpreting of what this new law means. Some believe it violates HIPPA and gains access to our private records, making them known to the federal gov't. Others have said that this law only reports current "public" records to the federal gov't.

 

One member has mentioned how we sign away our HIPPA rights to NJ and its designees when filling out the FID/P2P application, so we're royally screwed. If that were the case, wouldn't NJ have already looked into out private records if that much power was already granted to the state?

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 The only thing to add is if it does wind up creating a bunch of false positive denials, you can appeal at the federal level, and the federal laws about what counts have not changed. It'll probably be a huge PITA though if this snags you. 

 

Ah .. I knew there was a good reason for having an obscure Eastern European name that is unlikely to make it on funny lists unless someone wants to snag me specifically.

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Ah .. I knew there was a good reason for having an obscure Eastern European name that is unlikely to make it on funny lists unless someone wants to snag me specifically.

 

Same. My last name is fairly unique.

 

PS - Damn it, there are two other people in the US with my name, one of them having my same middle initial as well. He's from Mass. and is 60-something, so hopefully he's some nice liberal lapdog that's never done anything bad, lmfao.

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Ah .. I knew there was a good reason for having an obscure Eastern European name that is unlikely to make it on funny lists unless someone wants to snag me specifically.

 

Same here :D 

Besides my ex and my kid, there is only one old (70+) guy with same last name. 

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Now that Christie vetoed the rest of the bills (thank God), we must do two things: go on the offensive to expand our 2A rights here in NJ, and figure out what these new laws actually mean.

 

So far I've seen a divide in what people are interpreting of what this new law means. Some believe it violates HIPPA and gains access to our private records, making them known to the federal gov't. Others have said that this law only reports current "public" records to the federal gov't.

 

One member has mentioned how we sign away our HIPPA rights to NJ and its designees when filling out the FID/P2P application, so we're royally screwed. If that were the case, wouldn't NJ have already looked into out private records if that much power was already granted to the state?

 They always could have looked at private records, legally, as you waived privacy laws by signing the FPID apps. The issue is that up till now, it was impossibly impractical for them to check private records. They were, and still mostly are, too widely scattered among tens of thousands of providers, mainly on yellowing, moldy paper slowly rotting away in some storage basement. However, with advent and growing proliferation of EMR (electronic medical records), as well as Obamacare and various unrelated Medicare regulations, most of your healthcare records will, eventually, be consolidated into a single electronic file. Ostensibly, this is to facilitate continuity of care, among the various providers/specialists on your healthcare "team". For example, no more deadly drug interactions because your orthopedic doctor prescribed something that interacts badly with something your cardiologist has you on, but that the ortho doc is unaware of,etc..... It also helps to eliminate fraudulent and "double" billing, as well as thwarting "drug seekers", as it is easier to see if someone is "doctor shopping".

 

Strictly in terms of health care delivery, a viable and functioning EMR system, with universal compatibility/cross-communication is a very good thing. The problem comes when all that juicy data in one nicely wrapped package is made available to, and used by the government (or other nefarious individuals) for other purposes. Of course, since the government is now involved in administering your health insurance, they will claim to have a legitimate "business" need to access that private health data. This will also make it much easier/simpler/practical for FPID mental health checks to include "private" mental health treatment, as it will eventually all be entered into a standardized system.

 

Don't worry too much about PAST,or even near future, private mental health treatment. First of all, EMR is currently  a disaster wrapped in a kerfuffle, boxed up inside a conundrum, tossed into a steaming pile of crap. There are hundreds, if not thousands of incompatible, buggy "systems", all vying to become "the" standard. Eventually they'll get their act together, and there will be a functioning universal "network", but not yet. Secondly, even if a fully functional network suddenly appeared in every Dr's office in the country tomorrow, and even if every doctor/office/facility magically received full training via mental osmosis, nobody's going to be digitizing all those moldy old records in the basement.

 

So, going forward, keep your problems to yourself.......... Or ask the therapist to take cash under the table, and take no notes. Frisk them for pens/paper before hitting the couch, and for god's sake, use a fake name....... Its probably best to meet them in a back alley, under the cover of darkness.  :blind:

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