Beware of Cabela's Ammo - Herter's 7.62x39 is Corrosive

[W2MC 1,699]

Hello all

 

A "heads-up" for everyone.  I shot my SKS a week and a half ago with several boxes of Cabela's "Herter's" 7.62x39 ammo. The box plainly says "Non-Corrosive".

 

Well, I just picked-up the rifle to clean it, and...you guessed it...RUST!  The chamber, the bolt face, and around the feed area had a nice coating of RUST!

 

So, while I am cleaning the gun (which was PRISTINE, BTW), I email Cabela's - I sent the info below

 

 

 

I have had a problem with your Herter's ammunition; the 7.62x39 I54 gr steel case soft point.

The box plainly states "NON CORROSIVE". that is apparently not true; I shot three boxes of this ammo about a week and a half ago thru my Chinese SKS.

I just went to clean the gun; and found significant rusting/pitting in the chamber, bolt face, and gas system. I had to drive the gas operating rod out of its tube with a hammer and punch.

Before this; the rifle was in pristine condition - I have owned it for years, but I have shot it very sparingly...I do not believe there has been more than 250-500 rounds shot thru this rifle.

I am currently cleaning it to ensure that the rust doesn't go further...but your ammo has caused significant damage to my firearm.

 

 

I then receive this in reply:

 

 

Response Via Email (Scott G.) 08/16/2013 07:53 PM Hello Jon, and Thank you for contacting Cabela's Product Information Department.

Thank you for the email. Even when firing non-corrosive ammunition, it is recommended that your firearm be cleaned after each use. Non-corrosive ammunition, when stored properly, will not corrode in the box. However, any ammunition, when fired, creates fouling that, if not cleaned off of the firearm surfaces can cause degradation of the surfaces.

We appreciate your interest in Cabela's and if we may be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us again. 


Thank you for visiting cabelas.com and come back soon! 

Sincerely,
Scott G.

 

 

WHAT????  "Non-Corrosive" does NOT MEAN that it won't "corrode in the box"!

 

Needless to say, I am NOT HAPPY.  While I decide my next move, I wanted to give everyone a heads-up...BEWARE OF the Russian HERTER'S ammo...apparently it "will not corrode in the box", but it WILL CORRODE YOUR RIFLE!!!

 

 

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Thanks! I did get a bunch of that stuff but have not used it yet.

[bear0311 0]

"However, any ammunition, when fired, creates fouling that, if not cleaned off of the firearm surfaces can cause degradation of the surfaces"

 

Says it all right there bud. Sucks about the firearm but no matter what ammunition you are firing you should clean the weapon. Why wait a week and a half to clean a firearm?

[Clintoon Eastwood 2]

I've shot the herters 223 hp a whole bunch and I see no corrosion.  I also bought it from cabelas. All the friends I shoot with from this forum know damn well I dont clean any of my toys.  I hope my Ar isnt rusted. Damn you herters. 

[Melgamatic 66]

Sucks about the firearm but no matter what ammunition you are firing you should clean the weapon. Why wait a week and a half to clean a firearm?

 

I shoot 1000's of rounds in various expensive handguns between firings, and have never had any rust.  My H&K HK45 only gets cleaned every month or so, and my M9A1 almost never gets cleaned.  They shoot great, never any malfunctions (at all).  I clean them when I have time, but they don't ever look particularly dirty.

 

I used to clean every rifle after every trip, but realized that a) nothing bad happened if I didn't clean them every time, b) a barrel that has no fouling doesn't need brushing, and c) it's a waste of time for me.  I have a lot of very expensive rifles, they are all in perfect condition, but there is no reason to obsessively clean them every outing...

 

And, none of them ever have any corrosion.

[W2MC 1,699]

"However, any ammunition, when fired, creates fouling that, if not cleaned off of the firearm surfaces can cause degradation of the surfaces"

 

Says it all right there bud. Sucks about the firearm but no matter what ammunition you are firing you should clean the weapon. Why wait a week and a half to clean a firearm?

 

 

 

Then why did the two shotguns sitting next to it NOT corrode?  or the handguns?

I've had guns sit MONTHS without cleaning...without rust.  

 

His answer is BS

[lunker 274]

I shoot 1000's of rounds in various expensive handguns between firings, and have never had any rust.  My H&K HK45 only gets cleaned every month or so, and my M9A1 almost never gets cleaned.  They shoot great, never any malfunctions (at all).  I clean them when I have time, but they don't ever look particularly dirty.

 

I used to clean every rifle after every trip, but realized that a) nothing bad happened if I didn't clean them every time, b) a barrel that has no fouling doesn't need brushing, and c) it's a waste of time for me.  I have a lot of very expensive rifles, they are all in perfect condition, but there is no reason to obsessively clean them every outing...

 

And, none of them ever have any corrosion.

+1. I clean my guns when they are filthy enough to warrant it. No rust.

[bear0311 0]

I shoot 1000's of rounds in various expensive handguns between firings, and have never had any rust.  My H&K HK45 only gets cleaned every month or so, and my M9A1 almost never gets cleaned.  They shoot great, never any malfunctions (at all).  I clean them when I have time, but they don't ever look particularly dirty.

 

I used to clean every rifle after every trip, but realized that a) nothing bad happened if I didn't clean them every time, b) a barrel that has no fouling doesn't need brushing, and c) it's a waste of time for me.  I have a lot of very expensive rifles, they are all in perfect condition, but there is no reason to obsessively clean them every outing...

 

And, none of them ever have any corrosion.

I started shooting and then hunting at a young age. I was brought up to clean my firearms after every use. This became a ritual after each time we hit the field. In the military this mindset was instilled to a greater level. I understand that a dirty weapon will still function but why not clean them if time permits?

[RedBowTies88 41]

I've shot lot's of the .223 from herters and never had an issue . I think it's just rebranded tula anyway.

[matty 810]

Tula headstamp?

[carl_g 568]

That sucks man. I have some of this ammo and I did a lot of research before buying it. The headstamp says Tulammo and everything I have read up to this point says it gtg. I will be careful using it.

[bear0311 0]

Then why did the two shotguns sitting next to it NOT corrode?  or the handguns?

I've had guns sit MONTHS without cleaning...without rust.  

 

His answer is BS

BS? So if your weapon had been cleaned this thread would be nonexistent?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I started shooting and then hunting at a young age. I was brought up to clean my firearms after every use. This became a ritual after each time we hit the field. In the military this mindset was instilled to a greater level. I understand that a dirty weapon will still function but why not clean them if time permits?

 

 

because I typically like to push my guns to failure.. so I understand when they will stop..

 

a clean gun that runs is great.. but a dirty guns that runs is better..

 

 

 

tons of ammo through my ARs with minimal to no cleaning.. still going strong.. they will tell me when they need to be cleaned.. cycle slower.. bolt will drag.. etc.. 

[Damjan 73]

BS? So if your weapon had been cleaned this thread would be nonexistent?

If he shoots non corrosive he doesnt have to clean it right away. That s the whole point of the non corrosive ammo.

 

I say Ivan and Andrei neded primers to finish the order

and substituted primers from the military production line to the "for US Export line"

[Poisontail 0]

It's technically the primer that is corrosive if it effectively is corrosive ammo!

[carl_g 568]

Her's the product description from Cabelas:

Herter's 7.62x39 Rifle Ammunition

Polymer-coated Steel cases with Berdan primers, not-
reloadable. Bullet designations:
FMJ: Full Metal Jacket
HP: Hollow Point
SP: Soft point
Cases: Polymer coated steel
Primers: Non-reloadable, non-corrosive, Berdan primers.
Loaded to C.I.P. standards. The bimetal jacket (copper/steel alloy) on this leadcore
bullet will attract a magnet.

[Vlad G 345]

So corrosives is about primers. I don't care how much ammo you shot in one session, if you have corrosion on the bolt face and feed ramp odds are that isn't from the ammo and/or primer because most of that stuff ends up deposited in the barrel.

 

Odds are what you have here was a moisture issue. Was it wet when you shot? Was your ammo wet? Did you have a lot of moisture in the air depositing in the powder residue?

 

Now what it is interesting is that the chinese SKS's are not fully chromed. The bore is, but the chamber and bolt depends on who made it and when.  I wouldn't leave a in the white chamber or bolt un-oiled, but I would leave a chromed or stainless one

[W2MC 1,699]

So corrosives is about primers. I don't care how much ammo you shot in one session, if you have corrosion on the bolt face and feed ramp odds are that isn't from the ammo and/or primer because most of that stuff ends up deposited in the barrel.

 

------W2MC Actually, no.  All of the corrosion was in a definite pattern where you would expect to find burned powder/primer deposits from firing. As soon as I saw it I knew EXACTLY what it was.  I also had to use a hammer/punch to drive-out the gas operating rod.  I have never had to do that before - it usually just slid-out with little resistance.

 

Odds are what you have here was a moisture issue. Was it wet when you shot? Was your ammo wet? Did you have a lot of moisture in the air depositing in the powder residue?

 

------W2MC No moisture issues were present either during firing or in storage.  The gun was leaning up against the wall in a corner of the room.  There was high humidity during that time (it's August in South Jersey...the humidity was up), but the room was air conditioned; which significantly reduced the humidity.

 

Now what it is interesting is that the chinese SKS's are not fully chromed. The bore is, but the chamber and bolt depends on who made it and when.  I wouldn't leave a in the white chamber or bolt un-oiled, but I would leave a chromed or stainless one

 

------W2MC I know that NOW...the bore is chromed; as is (apparently) the firing pin and several parts of the bolt.  but the chamber/bolt face is either not chromed, or the chrome has worn-off fairly rapidly - there's only been around 250 rounds or so thru this rifle.  If you had asked me before this incident, I would have said the whole thing was chromed, though I was never impressed with the depth or quality of the chrome.

 

See the above for answers...storage/moisture was not an issue

[Vlad G 345]

Moisture is odd.  You really should have had that much corrosive primer compound on the feeding ramps and bolt, it mostly goes down the barrel.  Having shot lots of corrosive ammo in old Mausers, this doesn't really sound to me like a corrosive ammo issue, that mostly shows in the bore, not on the bore and feed ramp.

 

It sounds to me like the gun wasn't oiled very much, it was shot and/or handled in moist conditions and then left unoiled. That can happen with anything. 

[W2MC 1,699]

Vlad...I've owned/shot firearms for 30 years.  I've NEVER had anything like this before.  Its not poor storage, and its not misuse.  And it doesn't explain why I had to drive-out the gas piston from the cylinder after only 60 rounds.

 

I suspect Damjan's post (below) is probably closer to the truth...from what I understand, that's the Russian SOP...

 

"I say Ivan and Andrei neded primers to finish the order 
and substituted primers from the military production line to the "for US Export line" 

[Mikeythumbs 1]

Here's a thought I am not saying the primers didn't cause the problem. Was the day you ahot hot cause I the gun was in the trunk which would make it hot when transported then brought into the airconditioned house. That could caus condisation and if the chrome in the area that rusted was subpar as was stated it might be the cause of the problem. Just putting this out there as another probable cause of the problem

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad...I've owned/shot firearms for 30 years.  I've NEVER had anything like this before.  Its not poor storage, and its not misuse.  And it doesn't explain why I had to drive-out the gas piston from the cylinder after only 60 rounds.

 

Well look, if you are sure you know what the answer is then you can be mad at Cabelas, the Russians, or whatever. Thats fine, if  that is is what you are looking for.

[kman 56]

For all you who said he should have cleaned it anyhow, you overlook that when you shoot corrosive primed ammo you have to clean with water to flush out the salts. Just regular clp or rem oil won't neutralize the corrosive salts - you will still get rust even if you clean with those. Standard operating procedure before noncorrosive ammo came out 60 years ago was literally a water wash of the bore and bolt face and gas system if there is one. So are you saying that you always pour water or windex down the bore or on the bolt face afyer you finish shooting for the day, even when the ammo is marked noncorrosive? I dont do that unless there is a reason-unless i know i am shooting corrosive rounds. Cabelas should apologize and look into it, not brush the customer off. If true this is a big no no by the manufacturer which so happens to be the Russians.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[BlueLineFish 615]

My ammo sits so long it may corrode before I shoot it

[Melgamatic 66]

I felt so guilty today I actually cleaned the two rifles and M9A1 I shot today.  

[Vlad G 345]

For all you who said he should have cleaned it anyhow, you overlook that when you shoot corrosive primed ammo you have to clean with water to flush out the salts. Just regular clp or rem oil won't neutralize the corrosive salts - you will still get rust even if you clean with those. Standard operating procedure before noncorrosive ammo came out 60 years ago was literally a water wash of the bore and bolt face and gas system if there is one.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

First that assumes the a mo was corrosive, secondly, not really. A lot of modern cleaners work fine, I've shot a pile of corrosive ammo and cleaned just fine with modern cleaners.

[W2MC 1,699]

kman, on 17 Aug 2013 - 8:43 PM, said:

For all you who said he should have cleaned it anyhow, you overlook that when you shoot corrosive primed ammo you have to clean with water to flush out the salts. Just regular clp or rem oil won't neutralize the corrosive salts - you will still get rust even if you clean with those. Standard operating procedure before noncorrosive ammo came out 60 years ago was literally a water wash of the bore and bolt face and gas system if there is one. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Vlad G on 17 Aug 2013 9:40 PM, said:

First that assumes the a mo was corrosive, secondly, not really. A lot of modern cleaners work fine, I've shot a pile of corrosive ammo and cleaned just fine with modern cleaners. 

 

 

If I had known I was dealing with corrosive ammo, I would have used hot tap water to flush the corrosives from the rifle.  While some cleaners do go after the corrosive salts, many do not.  Hoppe's #9 and gun oil (rem oil), two of the three 'ingredients' I have/use, do NOT go after the corrosives.  WD-40 (the third I regularly use) MIGHT flush the salts out, but I wouldn't trust it - I would (and did) use it as a flush AFTER the water-to drive as much of the moisture out of the little nooks and crannies of the gun.  

This thread seems to have morphed into cleaning/storage thread; I originally intended it as a warning to all to not believe the box when it says "non-corrosive"...Well, that and I couldn't believe the answer I got out of Cabela's (and I was peeved to find rust on my SKS).  

 

This has inspired me, though...in the last day and a half I have been busily going thru and cleaning all the guns in the house; I'm currently about halfway thru the collection,  So far, no rust on anything else (but a lot of CLEAN guns!).  AND I'm out of rem oil and almost out of Hoppe's.

 

W2MC

 

 

[djg0770 481]

This is not the first time that i have heard of ammo that has been marked non-corrosive and shooters find out later that it is corrosive however it may be a first for Cabela's.

 

I recall (and my memory is often faulty) that Sportsman's Guide advertised some ammo as non-corrosive and shooters found out otherwise.

 

I think The Ivan &Andrei theory is "most plausible".

[Poisontail 0]

Flush the gun with a mild warm solution of soap and water, and clean as normal that's how Larry potter field does it.

[KpdPipes 388]

Herters is Rebranded Tula...I Always assume that ANY Russian-made ammunition is going to cause issues if the firearm isnt cleaned immdeiately.  Between the Primers, and the Incredibly Hydroscopic Fouling and residue.