Hypothetical Home Defense Question

[ironman27 0]

I have a firearms  license and a legally owned handgun.  My wife does not have a license.  Say someone breaks into my home and she is home alone and she shoots the intruder with my gun.  Is she in violation of the law? 

[O-gre 7]

Why? There is NO registration in NJ and if she is not disqualified I don't see anything in the law that would prevent her from defending herself.

[ogfarmer 138]

I think yes because she unlawfully has access to the firearm

[mikeyjones 88]

If she has no FID and the HG PPP is in the husbands name......illegal transfer?

If you bring a buddy to the range and he shoots your gun without an fid, is that an illegal transfer?

[greatgunstatenj 32]

I think yes because she unlawfully has access to the firearm

How is it unlawful access, she isn't a minor?

[ogfarmer 138]

because you are not there and she doesnt have a fid and the hg is in your name

[djg0770 481]

Look, you can worry about the law or you can worry about your wife's (and in my case kids) life/lives.

 

I'd rather take my chances w the law than w a shitbag.

 

Further, IF the DA charged, I'd be on the phone to all of the media outlets.

[vladtepes 1,060]

because you are not there and she doesnt have a fid and the hg is in your name

 

 

please site the law that supports that....

 

 

I say she is not in violation of the law for the following reason..

 

 

 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a

fixed location.

 

think about the following situation....

 

an intruder breaking in and tries to kill you.. you wrestle the (stolen) gun away from him and shoot him... technically.. illegal since the lawful owner is not present... 

an intruder breaks in... you wrestle away his sawed off shotgun.. illegal to own in NJ.. going to jail for having it in your possession?

 

if you act to save your life in an emergency crisis situation.. and it is an otherwise clean shoot.. you will not be charged.. IMO

[bravozulu14 0]

I'm surprised a question this basic hasn't already been answered by a lawyer at some point in NJ's history.  There is no case to answer this question on the books?

[djg0770 481]

I'm surprised a question this basic hasn't already been answered by a lawyer at some point in NJ's history. There is no case to answer this question on the books?

In order for there to be a case, some douche bag DA would have to actually charge someone and then follow through with a full trial you see... DAs tend to be "politically sensitive".

[ryan_j 0]

Joe Biden's advice would apply here - "get a shotgun"

 

My wife has her FID card. 

[ryan_j 0]

I'm surprised a question this basic hasn't already been answered by a lawyer at some point in NJ's history.  There is no case to answer this question on the books?

 

Evan Nappen's opinion I believe is that even letting your spouse touch one of your firearms in your home is an illegal transfer.

 

But at a target range, or hunting, no problem.

 

The bigger problem is that none of the exemptions for NJ firearm possession apply to lawful self defense. It's not an exempted use. So it would basically be up to the mercy of the court.

 

But in our case I am hoping that the judge seeing that my wife defending 3 small kids would at least play in her favor, IF we ever have to deal with a HD/SD situation (I hope we NEVER have to). 

[tj462nj 32]

 

 

it would be considered an illegal transfer of a firearm. a firearm, whether handgun or long gun, can only be owned by 1 person at a  time, and only used by someone else under the owners direct supervision at a range

[ReadDude 0]

Evan Nappen's Book "New Jersey Gun Law Guide", 2009 Edition, on Page 59 in the section entitled, "Exemptions for Possession: Residence or Land Owned or Possessed" asks and answers the following question:

 

May a firearm be temporarily transferred to one's spouse, adult family members or adult friends while at one's residence or on land owned or possessed?

 

His answer is "No, there are no provisions in NJ law for temporary transfer of firearms to an adult at one's residence [...]. However temporary transfers may be made to minors pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-6.1 [...]"

 

Mr. Nappen seems to be on the side of No. Now, my belief is that make sure the spouse has a NJ FID and a buys a pistol to show the she is not prohibited, then leave it to the courts and good sense, sigh.

[ReadDude 0]

Ironically, the reading of this quote by Nappen also makes target shooting someone else's pistol at a private property illegal as well. You can only legally do that at a licensed range.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

IMHO Post #11 covers it pretty well.  ANY firearm.  Perp comes into my home with a MP-5.  I hit him with my baseball bat.  I take his MP-5.  He lunges for me after being warned.  I pump half a mag into the Dirtbag.  PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I WANT THE COPS TO ARREST ME FOR HAVING A FULL AUTO!  I'd be an instant millionaire, sorta like the first guy to get PREGNANT!  

[Worn_Holster 2]

I do not believe that a "license" is a requirement for firearm ownership, if you are referring to an FID card. As a NJ resident that moved here from another state, my firearms were my property and they moved here with me; no need to license myself or register them. I have an FID now because it is proof to an LE officer that I have been subjected to a backgroud investigation should I ever be stopped while I am transporting, or if I wish to purchase a firearm or ammunition. If you or your wife were to use a firearm in self defense, you would be put under the scrutiny of the NJ criminal justice system and you would have to justify your actions. You can't just be scared and shoot someone. You will need to articulate your justification to use deadly force including the victims ability, opportunity, and intent to harm you to avoid being charge with a crime.

I am no lawyer, so contact one like Evan Nappan for more information if you deem it necessary, although some have already mentioned what he might say.

 

I guess that you could also ask yourself, "Would you rather be in trouble or dead?"

[Worn_Holster 2]

Would the courts charge and convict a woman from justifiably defending herself in her own home from an armed thug, regardless with what instrument she uses? I would say not, but this is New Jersey....

[GRIZ 3,369]

I'm surprised a question this basic hasn't already been answered by a lawyer at some point in NJ's history.  There is no case to answer this question on the books?

The reason there is no case on the books is because people don't get charged with using someone else's firearm if its a good shoot. Prosecuting someone under such circumstances is not a case prosecutors want to deal with. A prosecutor does not want to see in the papers,

 

"Mrs Jones saved the her life and her children's when she used Mr Jones handgun to shoot a chainsaw wielding killer who cut his way through their frontdoor. The suspect was (enter whatever disposition you want). When Mr Jones arrived home both he andMrs Jones were arrested for an illegal firearms transfer. They are being held on $20,000 bond."

[gunguy1960 2]

Prosecutors are lazy, they would do anything to not bring a woman before a jury, let alone one in fear of her life, in her own house. Teach her all you can and let the plea bargaining prosecutor be the last of your concerns.

[Duppie 73]

Evan Nappen's Book "New Jersey Gun Law Guide", 2009 Edition, on Page 59 in the section entitled, "Exemptions for Possession: Residence or Land Owned or Possessed" asks and answers the following question:

 

May a firearm be temporarily transferred to one's spouse, adult family members or adult friends while at one's residence or on land owned or possessed?

 

His answer is "No, there are no provisions in NJ law for temporary transfer of firearms to an adult at one's residence [...]. However temporary transfers may be made to minors pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-6.1 [...]"

 

Mr. Nappen seems to be on the side of No. Now, my belief is that make sure the spouse has a NJ FID and a buys a pistol to show the she is not prohibited, then leave it to the courts and good sense, sigh.

 

I would rather she defended her and my life with a "Nappen endorsed" illegal transfer,deal with the courts at a later date alive and well than have our relatives morn our deaths resolute in the fact we followed the letter of the law until the very end.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

No mandatory registration.  War relic from WW2 passed-down now for two generations.  In the house, loaded and ready.  Perp breaks in has weapon lunges at you, so you shoot him with Grandpa's .45 Colt ACP.  You're only 20 years old.  2 two the chest because Dad taught you well. YOU'RE ALIVE and the Perp goes out on a platter to the Morgue.  Cops come and "do their thing".  They see and photograph Perp's weapon laying next to where he dropped.  They find Perp's prints on a screwdriver laying outside near where the break-in occurred.  Door frame all beat to hell with screwdriver marks.  DA says it's a clean shoot.  You're 20 years old and you killed a man with a weapon that isn't registered to ANYONE!  Then you try to be normal after sleepless nights and throwing up every time you see blood.

 

Is THAT real enough for you people???????

[GRIZ 3,369]

Prosecutors are lazy, they would do anything to not bring a woman before a jury, let alone one in fear of her life, in her own house. Teach her all you can and let the plea bargaining prosecutor be the last of your concerns.

I wouldn't say prosecutors are lazy. Most in NJ are pretty busy. That's the reason there are so many plea bargains and things like PTI. Otherwise, the court system would be backed up for years.

 

IF this were a violation it doesn't serve any purpose of justice to prosecute such a case. A lot of people talk about jury nullification but prosecutor nullification is much more common.

[ryan_j 0]

Ironically, the reading of this quote by Nappen also makes target shooting someone else's pistol at a private property illegal as well. You can only legally do that at a licensed range.

 

I have to re-read the laws but I think you can actually use any place for target practice if you're a member of a rifle or pistol club that sends names to the state police every year. 

[ReadDude 0]

I have to re-read the laws but I think you can actually use any place for target practice if you're a member of a rifle or pistol club that sends names to the state police every year. 

Nappan says the transfer for target practice can only happen at a licensed target range

 

Reading the section below, instruction can be anywhere :-) This is actually pretty crazy law!

 

But, the for instruction, the transferor must be an licensed instructor as defined below.

 

Relevant section of 2C:58-3.1.

 

Temporary transfer of firearms

     1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifleor shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

[45Doll 5,877]

In my opinion, Vlad T. is right. And so is Evan Nappen. Because they are addressing two different legal issues.

 

Vlad correctly quotes 2C:39-6. e, which major section is titled "Exemptions". Exemptions to what? In the case of section e, exemptions specifically to 'subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5'.

 

What do 'subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5' deal with? The section is titled "Unlawful possession of weapons'. Sub-sections b, c and d deal with Handguns, Rifles and shotguns, and Other weapons.

 

So Vlad's point, which I agree with, is that the phrase "any gun" in the exemption exempts you from having the FID card as specified in 39-5 b, c, and d. You can't be charged in your own house with illegal possession of 'any gun'.

 

What is DOESN'T do is exempt you from any other section of NJ gun law. Specifically, it doesn't exempt you or your spouse from anything in 2C-58, which includes all the mumbo jumbo about 'transfers'. Evan Nappen's point is that a spouse could be charged on a transfer violation under 2C-58.

 

I specifically asked Nappen in the class at GFH if any spouse had ever been charged in NJ in this manner. He was not aware of any such case. Then again, there might not really have been one. Yet.

 

This topic reveals the most disturbing aspect of NJ gun law: internal inconsistencies in the law itself. If it were up to me I'd burn all of 2C:39 and 58.

 

Side note: can you guess why my wife's pistols are FDE, and not black like mine?

[Pythagoras 2]

OP: You probably know by now how stupid, vague, and convoluted the NJ laws are. As others above have said, it is possible she may TECHNICALLY be in violation of the law.

 

But look at it this way: If your wife is threatened by deadly force and needs to use a handgun to defend herself, it is definitely a "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" type of situation.

[Jon 264]

Look, you can worry about the law or you can worry about your wife's (and in my case kids) life/lives.

 

I'd rather take my chances w the law than w a shitbag.

 

Further, IF the DA charged, I'd be on the phone to all of the media outlets.

 

 

Why the thread continued past this post I will never understand. Too many people afraid of their own shadow.

[Pythagoras 2]

Why the thread continued past this post I will never understand. Too many people afraid of their own shadow.

This^

 

Be careful, be smart, don't go looking for trouble....but carry on, darn it!

[CMJeepster 2,778]

But look at it this way: If your wife is threatened by deadly force and needs to use a handgun to defend herself, it is definitely a "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" type of situation.

 

I'd rather attend her trial than her funeral.