No FID needed to handle gun at gun store!

[Respect2A 0]

Of course its a mutual respect thing, they can make any rule in their shop before they show me a gun, and of course I can always take my buisness else where.

Bingo.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

...or is totally new to guns. Why turn them off?

...Or is a transplant here from another state and wants a pellet gun to get rid of a groundhog and is told that a pellet gun is a real firearm under NJ law. Said transplant then goes through the ($$$ & time) FPID and P2P process to be legal and only uses said pellet gun for one shot.

 

Could you imagine any other retail outlet asking for credentials before showing you a product?

Like showing a car dealer your drivers license?

[halbautomatisch 60]

^^^^This is what is wrong with the world. People caving in like this. First of all, "codes", as a mandatory "requirement" are a bunch of crap.

However, that is a different argument. Assuming that you agree with "codes", and there enforcement (which I don't- but not important here), then if you are truly certain that you build it to code, then you stick to your guns. The inspector has no right to make it up as he sees fit. If he "harasses" you on other things because of it, you report him/fight him on that too. 

 

When you just "give-in", or "go-along-to-get-along", you not only surrender your own rights, but you are then an accomplice in that inspector's later trampling of other's rights. When you acquiesce, or give a bully what they want, they keep coming back for more, and it encourages them to do it to others as well. When you stand up to a bully, even if it means taking a punch, you can stop that bully in their tracks. Too many people are, selfishly, only concerned with the immediate consequences for them,without considering the bigger picture or just the plain "right and wrongness" of things. This is why gun rights are under attack. Too many people are not personally concerned with owning a gun, so they just don't care. It doesn't effect them,or so they think.

 

People who say "you can't fight city hall" should be ashamed of themselves. It is disrespectful of themselves, their fellow citizens, and everything this country is SUPPOSED to be.

I can admire your idealistic thoughts, and believe me, I would like nothing more than to stick it up the "Man's" a$$ when they pull this crap.

 

However, based on your response, you obviously have never tried to do any of this. Because if you had, you would know that doing so is pissing in the wind. Fighting the bureaucracy is not going to work because it's not an even fight. The people involved on their side are getting paid to fight you, are not held accountable for what they do or whether they win or lose and have waaaaay more resources than you will ever have. "They" are the 800 pound gorilla in the fight that will smash you like an ant.

 

I was once on a job where we were replacing an existing landscape tie retaining with a segmental retaining wall (interlocking blocks). This wall was about 3' high at it's highest point. Most towns don't require permits for these type of walls below 4" in height so we didn't get a permit for it. The building inspector showed up at a house just up the street where a different contractor had gotten some permits for what he was doing. After the inspector was done there he came to our job site and wanted to know why we didn't have a permit for the wall and told my guys to stop working on it. When I called his office and spoke to him he told me I needed a permit, I asked him at what height wall is a permit necessary. He said "well, I go two and a half feet", which translates to: "I'm going to make up whatever I want". Now at this point I have to make a decision, do you try to fight this? Which would involve paying a lawyer and probably going to court several months and THOUSANDS of dollars later and in the mean time your not working, your not getting paid by your customer, your employees are not working so they're going to get a job with some else. OR  do you give them the $120 dollars they wanted for the permit (which I can recoup from the customer anyway) and get back to working right away? It's not a hard business decision to make, I need to eat and so do my employees, and since your efforts to to fight city hall will not change ANYTHING, why put yourself though that? The inspector will not lose his job, it's not even going to stop him from pulling the same BS on the next person he comes across. It's legalized extortion, it's wrong, but that's the way it is.

 

If you really want to effect change, run for Mayor/Governor and then you can have some meaningful ability to do something if you get elected.

[Newtonian 453]

 

Like showing a car dealer your drivers license?

You don't need a DL to touch the car, open the door, or sit inside.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Dave, without making this a cop thrashing thread, I understand you completely.

I've experienced some of the SP create laws/rules on the fly. Seen it with my own eyes. So my thought's, "if you create crap on the fly, then put your pen where your mouth is".... Let the burden of proof fall on them.

 

Either way, this whole thing was made into a mountain from a mole hill. In other words, who gives a crap. If you feel slighted because you are requested to produce a card, oh well.... Get over it. It's not the worse thing we are up against. Waste the energy elsewhere where needed.

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

 

 

John,

 

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

You and I are on the same page Bro!  I put a lot of my efforts into educating the Public--like yesterday at Colliers Mills Wild Outdoor Expo--when I took my Possibles Bag and my uncased Percussion 10 ga. double and walked through the crowd to the Shotgun Station run by the NJDEP.  As soon as the Lead Instructor saw me, he had the crowd waiting to shoot gather round and listen and watch as I had a Boy volunteer to help me load the scattergun.  I explained all of the steps required, then asked the boy to put-on muffs and follow me to the firing line, and he capped my nipples.  TWO dead clay birds later everyone clapped and I thanked them all for their time and invited them all to shoot a Black Powder blank with me at the Historical Encampment I was part of.  Then I walked back through the entire crowd (to the farthest point from the Shotgun Area, near the event's entrance) with the gun on my shoulder to the Encampment!  And said hello to several armed Officers along the way!  NOBODY chased me, cuffed me or gave me a beat-down.  They just waved and said hello!  And NOBODY asked to see my NJFID or my Hunting License.  Sometimes leading by example is the best way to not be a "Chicken-SH!T!" lol! 

 

Hope to see you again soon at "Cafe Anthony" my friend!

 

Dave

[Karatenurse 11]

I read a few years back, how a guy walked into a small gun store somewhere down south I think it was. He then asked to see a Glock and proceeded to pull out a loaded magazine from his pocket, loaded the gun and was going to rob the store. Lucky for the sales clerk he was armed and was able to prevent the guy from causing any harm with no shots fired.  The clerk held the guy untill the police came. When asked how he got the magazine, his reply was anyone can by magazines and ammo, it was just getting access to the gun that was his problem. I think he had some mental issues going on as well.

 

Bill

[carguy3j 0]

I can admire your idealistic thoughts, and believe me, I would like nothing more than to stick it up the "Man's" a$$ when they pull this crap.

 

However, based on your response, you obviously have never tried to do any of this. Because if you had, you would know that doing so is pissing in the wind. Fighting the bureaucracy is not going to work because it's not an even fight. The people involved on their side are getting paid to fight you, are not held accountable for what they do or whether they win or lose and have waaaaay more resources than you will ever have. "They" are the 800 pound gorilla in the fight that will smash you like an ant.

 

I was once on a job where we were replacing an existing landscape tie retaining with a segmental retaining wall (interlocking blocks). This wall was about 3' high at it's highest point. Most towns don't require permits for these type of walls below 4" in height so we didn't get a permit for it. The building inspector showed up at a house just up the street where a different contractor had gotten some permits for what he was doing. After the inspector was done there he came to our job site and wanted to know why we didn't have a permit for the wall and told my guys to stop working on it. When I called his office and spoke to him he told me I needed a permit, I asked him at what height wall is a permit necessary. He said "well, I go two and a half feet", which translates to: "I'm going to make up whatever I want". Now at this point I have to make a decision, do you try to fight this? Which would involve paying a lawyer and probably going to court several months and THOUSANDS of dollars later and in the mean time your not working, your not getting paid by your customer, your employees are not working so they're going to get a job with some else. OR  do you give them the $120 dollars they wanted for the permit (which I can recoup from the customer anyway) and get back to working right away? It's not a hard business decision to make, I need to eat and so do my employees, and since your efforts to to fight city hall will not change ANYTHING, why put yourself though that? The inspector will not lose his job, it's not even going to stop him from pulling the same BS on the next person he comes across. It's legalized extortion, it's wrong, but that's the way it is.

 

If you really want to effect change, run for Mayor/Governor and then you can have some meaningful ability to do something if you get elected.

Actually, your assumption would be incorrect. I have had numerous situations with town "officials" over zoning/codes/etc.... It has cost me probably a couple thousand dollars in fines, it eventually cost me the house I was renting, and a new situation, elsewhere is now likely to put me out on the street soon. Still, I know I am in the moral right, if not the "legal" one. (The " " are because I consider zoning/property maintenance "codes" to be mostly unconstitutional, and therefor null and void).

 

I did successfully get my prior town to leave me alone for a while, when I made it clear that I was ready and willing to fight them, all the way to the supreme court, to have their an ordinance declared unconstitutional, as well as promising to make it my mission in life to sue the town out of existence, as well as every official and cop that ever participated in the unlawful and immoral enforcement of those un-constitutional "laws", for civil rights violations. I gave them specific examples of how I could prove that my activity/possessions were protected by the first amendment. I must have said something that got their attention, as they left me alone for a while. Eventually, they found some other avenue to come at me again,but not over that one. I think I made it clear that they should move on and find an easier target, and they did for a while. If I'd had a decent job and money, I would still be fighting, and eventually I would have beat them. One day, when I am financially able, I still want to go back and pick that fight again, and finish it. To me, the ultimate victory would be standing in the municipal building parking lot, with a Sheriff seizing police patrol cars and other official vehicles and equipment (except for fire and ambulance) to satisfy a judgement against the town.........to see zoning/code enforcement officials being escorted out of their former place of employment as all the furniture and computers are carried out, the lights shut off, and the doors padlocked. Oh to dream......

 

Anyway, in the situation you referenced, I would have politely, but firmly asked what the actual ordinance/code says, which spells out the height at which a permit is required. If he can't produce it or it doesn't exist, or it says the 4ft you mentioned,  then any "summons" issued would be thrown out. Again, I would have politely, but firmly pointed that out to him, and reminded him that he does not the authority to decide where "he goes" with it. I would immediately send my employees back to finish the job, and ask the inspector to not harass the workers on my job site. I would further point out to him that, without an ordinance to back up his 2-/12ft, he is knowingly abusing his official position, and any further discussion on the matter, any further attempts to shut down this job site on this basis, as well any future improper or "revenge"/"payback" type behavior in the future will constitute harassment, and will be met with a civil suit against him. In the future, I'm sure he'll never do you any favors, but you should be able to ensure that he can't make you do things beyond the letter of the law. 

Also, in this instance, you fighting back may very well end his routine practice of making this up as he goes. Once he realizes that he could get himself in a lot of trouble, he just might be more careful to stay within the boundaries of the law.

[Newtonian 453]

Well here's a question. Will your local PD even issue you a permit if you have never applied for an FID card?

Does not make sense that someone would have a permit and not have an FID card. After all you will never be able to buy any handgun ammo in NJ without one.

 

Hold on. I just applied for a permit. On the right side, about 1/3 of the way from the top, it asked for your FID #. What purpose does a purchase card have if not to "permit" you to purchase??

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Hold on. I just applied for a permit. On the right side, about 1/3 of the way from the top, it asked for your FID #. What purpose does a purchase card have if not to "permit" you to purchase??

 

It also PERMITS you to carry a long gun stowed unloaded in the vehicle (i.e.: a sedan's trunk).  This magic NJFID need not be on your person to do so.

 

Those without their FID are supposed to travel "to and from" the exempted locations ONLY!  Just like we currently have to do while transporting hand guns.

 

Those WITH their NJFID can drive-around all year with an unloaded long gun in their trunk, so long as they don't go onto School property or a Military Installation (like the Navy Yard!)

 

Does THIS clear it all up for you?

 

Dave

[Newtonian 453]

It also PERMITS you to carry a long gun stowed unloaded in the vehicle (i.e.: a sedan's trunk).  This magic NJFID need not be on your person to do so.

 

Those without their FID are supposed to travel "to and from" the exempted locations ONLY!  Just like we currently have to do while transporting hand guns.

 

Those WITH their NJFID can drive-around all year with an unloaded long gun in their trunk, so long as they don't go onto School property or a Military Installation (like the Navy Yard!)

 

Does THIS clear it all up for you?

 

Dave

Dave,

 

The fact that they ask for the # is significant. I can understand someone assuming otherwise, but no need to get hyperbolic. I was only asking a question. No need to scream at me. Unless you were joking. Har-har.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Since I'm an "Old Fudd", my NJFID says "permission is hereby granted to purchase and carry rifles and shotguns".  They omitted the wording on your card but kept the same law on the books (about "carrying" in your vehicle).  I wasn't "screaming" (didn't use all caps), merely trying to save another 3 pages of needless BS that would completely hijack the OP's thread..........

 

Gun stores that KNOW the laws are to be rewarded with customers.  Chicken Littles, not so much.............

[OchoBlue 3]

You can buy handgun ammo in NJ with a carry license - any carry license, does not have to be a NJ carry license (yeah, another example where the law and practice diverge).

 

Can you purchase handgun ammo in nj with a utah nonresident ccw license ?

[68chris 20]

I am not sure the above statement by halbauto is correct, although I wish it was.

 

The law reads

 

"" is the holder of and possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun, or a valid permit to carry a handgun and first exhibits such card or permit to the seller, donor, transferor or assignor.""

 

 

 

Since this great state of NJ does not recognize carry permits from any other state, I think that that Utah carry license is not "valid" in NJ.

[mickeyduck 0]

I believe business owners have the right to run their business any way they choose.  If they require you to stand on your head and fart the theme to the Simpson's before you can hold a gun, that's fine with me. 

 

But...unless the shady looking dude behind you has lost his constitutional rights through due process, I think he gets to not only hold a gun but keep and bear one uninfringed, that means without having to have an FID, no matter how shady he may look.  But that's just me.

 

I disagree.  A shady looking dude can ask to see my apples & oranges all he wants if I'm selling fruits. No problem there.  But for goods classified as dangerous, I would ask for an FID to verify that the person is not a felon.  You can't safely give anyone the benefit of the doubt these days, just to avoid hurting a buyer's feelings.  For all you know, some crazy may just show up at your gun store with a loaded mag in his pocket.

[halbautomatisch 60]

I am not sure the above statement by halbauto is correct, although I wish it was.

 

The law reads

 

"" is the holder of and possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun, or a valid permit to carry a handgun and first exhibits such card or permit to the seller, donor, transferor or assignor.""

 

 

 

Since this great state of NJ does not recognize carry permits from any other state, I think that that Utah carry license is not "valid" in NJ.

I suppose the argument could go either way, but the permit is Indeed valid (as in, not expired or revoked), it's just not recognized by NJ. NJ wouldn't have the authority to invalidate an out of state permit, only the authority to refuse to recognize it.  I doubt the authors of that legislation intended to allow out of state CC permits to used to buy  HG ammo, but like a lot of laws in gun NJ, it's poorly written and ambiguous with no case law to guide us.

[68chris 20]

, but like a lot of laws in gun NJ, it's poorly written and ambiguous with no case law to guide us.

so true

[mipafox 438]

Every time I have touched a firearm in NJ I have been asked for an FID or a pistol purchase permit depending on the type of firearm I wanted to see, going back to 1991.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't remember doing it.  I go to the same 3-4 shops and I'm 54 yrs. old and "look" like I know what I'm doing.

 

Maybe wearing my NRA Life Member Patch and Distinguished Expert Pin has something to do with it?  DUNNO........

[djg0770 481]

I was once on a job <snip>

 

your efforts to to fight city hall will not change ANYTHING, why put yourself though that? <snip>

 

Halb, you could and (in my opinion should) file a formal complaint with the DCA about bs non-code "enforcement".  Many inspectors were removed in other towns for equally egregious baloney.  Sometimes the best way to fight city hall is with a bigger city and a bigger hall if you know what I mean.  The state code clearly states that no town may add their own BS to the code.

[Newtonian 453]

 

Also if you have a carry permit you can buy ammo without a FID. 

 

That's like saying if you win $400 million in the lottery you no longer have to work.

[ElmerFudd 0]

Been in Cheyenne's several times and was never asked for it before handling anything. Actually it was before I even had one.

 

That's odd.  I've been asked for my FID just to look at ammo there...  

 

I've actually been asked for an FID at most stores that I've been to, though.  It's frustrating and I want to argue every time but I keep my mouth shut because quite frankly, I usually don't feel like fighting it out and receiving sub-par service.

[ElmerFudd 0]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't remember doing it.  I go to the same 3-4 shops and I'm 54 yrs. old and "look" like I know what I'm doing.

 

Maybe wearing my NRA Life Member Patch and Distinguished Expert Pin has something to do with it?  DUNNO........

 

Probably true.  I'm in my mid-20s, Black, and despite my best efforts to "look like I know what I'm doing", probably only achieve an "interested dabbler" kind of look (though I am a bit of a chameleon).

[aguilar64 9]

We usually ask for the FID to prevent tire kickers from asking to see every gun on the shelves. I believe every store has their own policies.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Halb, you could and (in my opinion should) file a formal complaint with the DCA about bs non-code "enforcement".  Many inspectors were removed in other towns for equally egregious baloney.  Sometimes the best way to fight city hall is with a bigger city and a bigger hall if you know what I mean.  The state code clearly states that no town may add their own BS to the code.

 I was not aware of that, I was under the impression they could tweek the uniform code to adapt to local conditions. I'll have to keep that in mind. As for this incident, that was a few years back and that guy is probably gone by now anyway.

[mipafox 438]

&nbsp;

I disagree. &nbsp;A shady looking dude can ask to see my apples &amp; oranges all he wants if I'm selling fruits. No problem there. &nbsp;But for goods classified as dangerous, I would ask for an FID to verify that the person is not a felon. &nbsp;You can't safely give anyone the benefit of the doubt these days, just to avoid hurting a buyer's feelings. &nbsp;For all you know, some crazy may just show up at your gun store with a loaded mag in his pocket.

&nbsp;

 

Happens all the time in PA or the rest of America where nobody asks for a "gun permit" to show a gun.

 

Not.

 

That was a really stupid Jersey thing to say. You people are your own worst enemies, and thank goodness you can't vote in other states.

 

 

 

 

We usually ask for the FID to prevent tire kickers from asking to see every gun on the shelves. I believe every store has their own policies.

 

 

Now THAT makes a lot of sense in Jersey, where the majority of people can't even buy a gun and there is a credential required for the sale.

[mickeyduck 0]

&nbsp;&nbsp;

 

Happens all the time in PA or the rest of America where nobody asks for a "gun permit" to show a gun.

 

Not.

 

That was a really stupid Jersey thing to say. You people are your own worst enemies, and thank goodness you can't vote in other states.

 

   

 

Now THAT makes a lot of sense in Jersey, where the majority of people can't even buy a gun and there is a credential required for the sale.

 

You're a real pal. Thanks for making all of us feel better about living in NJ.  I guess we're not as enlightened as you are.  

[mipafox 438]

&amp;nbsp;

You're a real pal. Thanks for making all of us feel better about living in NJ. &amp;nbsp;I guess we're not as enlightened as you are. &amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp;

 

Good point. I apologize for my bad manners, but you scare the shit out of me, and a lot of other people as well. I don't mean that as further insult, I just gotta shoot straight with you here because this is not an esoteric discussion.

 

Almost nowhere in the nation does anybody need any sort of ID to handle a gun, and certainly no sort of permit to buy one. So, when I hear this kind of talk, I know that people that are paranoid about guns to the point of being anti to the rest of us don't stay put, they move and they breed.

 

Do you think anybody in America wants to hear you say nobody should be able to handle a gun in a gun shop without some sort of gun permit because they haven't proven to you they aren't a felon in advance? You think that only scares me? Think about it from the perspective of America.

[PK90 3,570]

Do you think anybody in America wants to hear you say nobody should be able to handle a gun in a gun shop without some sort of gun permit because they haven't proven to you they aren't a felon in advance? You think that only scares me? Think about it from the perspective of America.

I agree 100%

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[gunguy1960 2]

Shop can do what it wants, fine by me, but a shop pushed my button when I wanted to leave a deposit on a thousand plus used gun and the guy wanted my card, which I didnt bring because I knew I wasnt buying or handling that day, so I said just forget the sale, this in a shop where I spent 5-10k every year. Havent been back since.

[jeffsolo 1]

                Peter I want to thank you for a voice of reason on this and other urban legends.  I have dealt with some very "learned" close friends spewing the loaded mag transport, illegal hollow points, and FID requirements for some time now.

                The problem of misinformation exists not only with our firearms owners and businesspeople, but with the people who enforce the laws themselves.  And yes, I know there's no excuse for this, but it's out there.  Whether it's done to err on the side of caution or to show absolute authority or just plain ignorance I can only speculate.

               I'm just trying to avoid possible arrest and confiscation of my weapons.  You're just trying to stay in business. I thank you for promulgating the truth by posting on this forum.

 

 

                                                                                                                        Jeff