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podmannj

Lend gun to my son - is it ok?

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that is an illegal transfer. the only way you transfer a handgun to someone who will take it out of your sight is to transfer using a Pistol Permit.  someone can shoot your gun at a range, but only with you in their presence. you are responsible for the gun at all times.

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For a long gun, you might want to consider filling out a Certificate of Eligibility transferring it to your son. And hold on to your original COE from when you purchased it or it was transferred to you. Think of it as being transferred back and forth between you two depending on who wants to use it. Since the paperwork is never filed anywhere, you don't have to notify the state of these transfers.

 

Unfortunately, handguns are a whole different ball of wax.

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2C:58-3.1. Temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58- 3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifle or shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location. A transfer under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and may be made for a set fee or an hourly charge. The firearm shall be handled and used by the person to whom it is temporarily transferred only in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the legal owner of the firearm, the dealer who transferred the firearm or any other person competent to supervise the handling and use of firearms and authorized to act for that purpose by the legal owner or licensed dealer. The legal owner of the firearm or the licensed dealer shall be on the premises or the property of the firing range during the entire time that the firearm is in the possession of the person to whom it is temporarily
transferred. The term "legal owner" as used in this subsection means a natural person and does not include an organization, commercial enterprise, or a licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or dealer of firearms.

b. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer and disposition of firearms, a legal owner of a shotgun or a rifle may temporarily transfer that firearm to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card. The person to whom a shotgun or rifle is temporarily transferred by the legal owner may receive, possess, carry and use that shotgun or rifle in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purposes of hunting if the transfer is made in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State, the shotgun or rifle is legal and appropriate for hunting and the person to whom the firearm is temporarily transferred possesses a valid license to hunt with a firearm, and a valid rifle permit if the firearm is a rifle, obtained in accordance with the provisions of chapter 3 of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes. The transfer of a firearm under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and no fee shall be charged for the transfer. The legal owner of the firearm which is temporarily transferred shall remain in the actual presence or in the vicinity of the person to whom it was transferred during the entire time that the firearm is in that person's possession. The term "legal owner" as used in this subsection means a natural person and does not include an organization, commercial enterprise, or a licensed manufacturer, wholesaler or dealer of firearms.

c. No firearm shall be temporarily transferred or received under the provisions of subsections a. or b. of this section for the purposes described in section 1 of P.L.1983, c.229 (C.2C:39-14).

d. An owner or dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any person pursuant to the provisions of this section if the owner or dealer knows the person does not meet the qualifications set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3 for obtaining or holding a firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit. A person shall not receive, possess, carry or use a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this section if the person knows he does not meet the qualifications set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3 for obtaining or holding a firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit.

2C:58-3.2. Temporary transfer of firearm for training purposes

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary, a person who is certified as an instructor in the use, handling and maintenance of firearms by the Police Training Commission, the Division of Fish, Game and Wildlife and the State Park Service in the Department of Environmental Protection, the Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United States Department of the Army or by a recognized rifle or pistol association that certifies instructors may transfer a firearm temporarily in accordance with the terms of this section to a person participating in a training course for the use, handling and maintenance of firearms by the Police Training Commission, the Division of Fish, Game and Wildlife, the Director of Civilian Marksmanship or by a recognized rifle or pistol association that certifies instructors. The person to whom a firearm is transferred by a certified instructor in accordance with the terms of this section may receive, possess, carry and use the firearm temporarily during the sessions of the course for the purpose
of training and participating in the course.

b. A transfer of a firearm under this section may be made only if:

(1) the transfer is made upon a firearms range or, if the firearm is unloaded, in an area designated and appropriate for the training;

(2) the transfer is made during the sessions of the firearms course for the sole purpose of participating in the course;

(3) the transfer is made for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period; and

(4) the transferred firearm is used and handled only in the actual presence and under the direct supervision of the instructor.

c. The transfer permitted by this section may be made whether or not the person participating in the course holds a firearms license, firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit. However, an instructor shall not knowingly transfer a firearm under the terms of this section to a person who does not meet the qualifications set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:58-3 for obtaining or holding a firearms purchaser identification card or a handgun purchase permit, and a person who knows that he does not meet such qualifications shall not receive the transferred firearm under the terms of this section.

d. No firearm shall be transferred or received under the provisions of this section for purposes described in section 1 of P.L.1983, c.229 (C.2C:39-14).

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http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/29389-read-before-posting-nj-gun-law-faq/

Vlad took the time to make this and it's a great source of info and I'm sure I'm guilty of posting some stuff without looking but I think people should really read this from time to time and try to stay familiar where to find things. If there is a question then sure of course bring it up but I found this within 2 minutes of opening the post.

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just found it, pretty in depth link, thanks vlad

 

"It is unlawful to sell, give, transfer, assign, or otherwise dispose of, or receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire a handgun unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver, or holder is licensed as a dealer under New Jersey law or has first secured a Permit to Purchase a handgun."

 

its just that i remember reading something that made me think this didnt apply to the op's question.

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This:

It is unlawful to knowingly have in your possession a:
1. Handgun, including any antique handgun, without first obtaining a Permit to Carry. No distinction is drawn between carrying openly or concealed.
2. Rifle or shotgun without first obtaining a FID card. It is Illegal to carry a loaded shotgun or rifle in any vehicle

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a
fixed location.

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The rule:

2C:39-5. Unlawful possession of weapons 2C:39-5. 

 

 

b. Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S. 2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

c. Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S. 2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

d. Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

 

 

 

The exemptions:

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

f. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

(2)A person carrying a firearm or knife in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purpose of hunting, target practice or fishing, provided that the firearm or knife is legal and appropriate for hunting or fishing purposes in this State and he has in his possession a valid hunting license, or, with respect to fresh water fishing, a valid fishing license;

(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:

(a)Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided the person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license; or

(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

 

 

I am not sure if you can or not, it is certainly open for interpretation. 

What if it is a gun that is kept in the safe at home and any legal, of age, not prohibited person family member can use it for one of the legal exemptions listed above without asking permission from any other family member.

To further my argument that the op's son may be able to bring gun to the range, they reference the word "any" gun in subsection E in the above exemption. They could have said firearm owned by him, but did not. They certainly spoke about the "land" being owned by him, so they did indeed take into account ownership thoughts, just not in regards to the firearm.

 

I would argue that the family member taking the gun to the range is not a transfer, and thus, does not fall under the transfer rules and laws;  section E in the exemption clearly reads any firearm.

 

 

Thoughts??

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I would argue that the family member taking the gun to the range is not a transfer, and thus, does not fall under the transfer rules and laws; section E in the exemption clearly reads any firearm.

 

Thoughts??"

 

You'd be wrong. Anyone other than the owner taking possession of the firearm is a transfer. There's no "family" member exception.

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Add to that: the only way this even becomes an issue for the parties involved is if the transferee has contact with law enforcement on his way to/from the range, that contract escalates to the point that they're searching the car and, having become aware of the gun, start to question his ownership of same.

 

At that point, do you really want to be relying on "the statute is kinda vague"?

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You are probably correct since 58 was obviously written after 39.

That, and the fact the 58 starts off with "Notwithstanding" as it's first word, would be the kiss of death for my exemption E defense.

All well, at least I'm trying to think outside the box a little bit. These overlapping rules and laws and constant revisions don't help much.

Damn shame you can't lend your 21 year old son your handgun in this state. Damn shame.

Thinking outside the box will probably get you before a judge.

And you will not get a contradictory statement on that comment from me. It really is a shame.

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hey, how did you get that ? I edited it out, lol :no:

 

I edited it because after re-reading, I have had a change of mind.

 

I think the original 39-5 "E" exemption stands as written.

I also think the 58, written later, does not apply or trump 39-5 in any way.

 

Here is why:

 

2C:58-3.1. Temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58- 3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2,

 

It addresses, and more importantly the first word, "Notwithstanding" applies to and only specifically 39-9, 58-3 only.

There is no mention of 39-5 anywhere, hence the original 39-5 stands and is unchanged or challenged in an way by the new 58.

I would say again, I do not see the boy going to the range with the fathers gun as a transfer, temporary or otherwise.

 

When a son takes dad's car to the movies and brings it home when done, that is not a transfer either.

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One question that it would be nice to see answered is if there is any example of someone in NJ transferring a gun to two people jointly, or to a corporation that has multiple officers or shareholders, like they do with Title II firearms (federally registered machine guns and such) in free states.

 

Joint ownership of property is pretty settled under the law with regard to ordinary objects.  So how is it that in NJ you can't execute a transfer conveying an indivisible interest to two or more people, or to a company?

 

Now if anyone has an answer to that, I'd be all ears.

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if a word is not clearly defined by a law then its common accepted definition applies.. 

 

 

 


1
a :  to convey from one person, place, or situation to another:  moveshift

 

the reason that you can temporarily transfer a car from one individual to another without transferring the vehicle in the sense of transferring the title is because the law does not state that you are not allowed to do that...

 

the reason that you can not do that with firearms is because the law does not allow it... in fact it specifically disallows it....

 

transfer means exactly what transfer means.. moving from one person to the other...

claiming that you are not transferring because it is a spouse.. or child.. is an argument you will lose... because your relationship to the person is not a qualifier to the law... 

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