Electronic nics requiring social security #

[mikeyjones 88]

I bought a gun recently from FSS and they were using the new online nics check. I've never had to put my ssn on any form before. The employees there wouldn't let me proceed without giving up my ssn. They said it's a required field on the electronic form. Anyone have any insight into this? If this is the case, I may be buying all my firearms from private parties. Not generally the tin foil type but I don't like giving out more info than necessary.

[Blacksmythe 71]

Damn they already ask for all of that shit when yo do the FID and P2P. What the hell is the SBI for then.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

I think that is the most abused item out there. Nobody is supposed to use that except for employment.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

..What the hell is the SBI for then.

Criminals, gun owners and school teachers

 

Wait ... is there a difference??

[SFDevine7 0]

Just got an electronic NICS check done by Plumstead on Wednesday. no ssn

[lunker 274]

It was always optional on the form you fill out.

[ryan_j 0]

What do they need SSN for? Are they going to tie my social security benefits to how many guns I own?

[Cmor1701d 0]

It's needed for the special ammo allowance the NRA is lobbying for as an add on to SSI.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I think that is the most abused item out there. Nobody is supposed to use that except for employment.

You are correct but your ssn has become your national ID number. They have used it for everything for over 40 years. You are not going to undo all that with protest.

[mikeyjones 88]

Just got an electronic NICS check done by Plumstead on Wednesday. no ssn

I have always refused to give out when asked in the past. This time they convinced me that it was "required". Good to know it'll still work without it.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[djg0770 481]

What do they need SSN for? Are they going to tie my social security benefits to how many guns I own?

Actually they use it to distinguish Shawn T Moore the felon from Shawn T Moore the FFL.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

My SSN is the only thing that's got me released from jail before. So it does help sometimes

[nuclearheli 40]

While it is a field on the form marked "required" it is not. The form gets processed normally without it. Probably marked that way by unknowing programmers as required but later found not to be. I guess somebody forgot to remove the asterisk.

 

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Actually they use it to distinguish Shawn T Moore the felon from Shawn T Moore the FFL.

 

Precisely.  If it helps distinguish you from someone else with a name close to yours that has a bad criminal history, it's well worth the intrusion.  I will provide mine on FID/P2P's and the 4473.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

What do they need SSN for? Are they going to tie my social security benefits to how many guns I own?

They ask for your SSN as a secondary identifier in case there are more than one person registered with the same name.

It is voluntary on both the State & federal level applications.

[mikeyjones 88]

While it is a field on the form marked "required" it is not. The form gets processed normally without it. Probably marked that way by unknowing programmers as required but later found not to be. I guess somebody forgot to remove the asterisk.

I will point that out next time I go to FSS. It really irks me when gun store employees don't know wtf they're talking about and pass it off as law.

[raz-0 1,259]

You are correct but your ssn has become your national ID number. They have used it for everything for over 40 years. You are not going to undo all that with protest.

Actually you can. There is federal law about what it can and can't be used for lawsuits work. About a year into my tenure at rutgers as a student, they got their ass handed to them regarding use of ssn as student Id numbers.

 

The same laws are why the ssn is optional on nics.

[lunker 274]

Actually you can. There is federal law about what it can and can't be used for lawsuits work. About a year into my tenure at rutgers as a student, they got their ass handed to them regarding use of ssn as student Id numbers.

 

The same laws are why the ssn is optional on nics.

That happened my freshman year at Rutgers, 1987. My SSN was my student id. I would check the wall in the Chemistry hall. Test Scores were listed by SSN. Midway through the year, we all got new numbers.

[Hops 0]

Not mandatory and it says so on the form. Picked up a gun last week and did not use my ssn.

[TheDon 3]

They simply need to enter "Not Provided" as the SSN and you are good to go. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

Actually you can. There is federal law about what it can and can't be used for lawsuits work. About a year into my tenure at rutgers as a student, they got their ass handed to them regarding use of ssn as student Id numbers.

 

The same laws are why the ssn is optional on nics.

There are a lot of things its use is permitted however.

 

Okay let me know when its all straightened out.

 

A lot of this protest with SSN started when identity theft became more prevalent. However its pretty easy to find out a SSN from overt sources if you know how.

 

Try not giving your SSN when you renew your drivers license and let me know where that gets you.

[nuclearheli 40]

NJ gun stores will again lie to you and state it is required. 

 

Before becoming a NJ Retail Firearm Dealer the retail store I purchased from never required SS#. I never have since I have been in business and a quick check of my ON-Line NJNICS submission form clearly states "optional" under SS#. https://www.plumstedarms.com/index.php/nics_submission_form/. I believe you will find that most do not require SS# and those that do are simply trying to understand what the laws are and how to stay out of trouble. Did you know that NICS is NOT subject to tax? Some stores add tax to NICS because they are receiving incorrect advice from their "professional" accountants who always advise to error on the side of caution. Not because they are trying to lie to you or rip you off.  I don't charge tax on NICS, in fact I don't charge for NICS at all if you purchase from me. That's the simplest way to avoid the tax debate on NICS

 

NJ Gun stores are not the villains here. Most of us are trying to do the right thing and at the same time we try to provide firearms to the public in an extremely difficult environment where simple mistakes could result in significant personal legal problems up to and including jail.  

 

I am a New Jersey Gun Store by definition and in order to have lied to you "again" I need to know when have I lied to you in the first place. Why does everything always have to be a conspiracy on every level?  

 

PM me and I will provide you with a discount coupon code for my on-line store. Maybe after a positive pleasant purchase experience you might be able to trust us. We shoot guns just like you.

[exfed2002 4]

They ask for your SSN as a secondary identifier in case there are more than one person registered with the same name.

It is voluntary on both the State & federal level applications.

Except, of course, if someone has used your SSN as part of their arrest record....................in which case it will flag on NCIC III

[JT Custom Guns 956]

I have issues with giving out my SSN as well.  Recent purchases, gun stores in NJ all ask for it.  So I ordered from distributors online, all they want is my name, cash, and an FFL license to mail the firearm to.  Go figure, only NJ gun stores are requiring this....

 

Just another example of the NJ firearm mentality, where you need to provide your left testicle imprint and rectal exam to purchase a firearm, according to the "all knowing gun store employee". 

 

I take offence to this statement soley based on your lumping ALL 'gun Stores" into one stereotype.

First - Gun Stores in NJ ALL ask for it - this isn't true ,and if you read the 4473 that you are filling out, it clearly says 'Optional"

Second - "So I order from Distributors on line, all they want is name,cash & FFL" - well you would still need to visit the gun store / FFL

for the transfer so how does ordering on line prevent you from being asked for your SSN?

 

I completely understand someone not wanting to give out their SSN. But don't lump every NJ dealership into one pile.

If you don't like a dealer for insisting on the SSN (Which is wrong) then find another but don't bash all of us!

 

I personally have had customers say they don't want to give their SSN  out for the NICS check, o.k. no problem. but the only

time I have ever had a "delayed response" from NICS was for someone who didn't offer it (Not everyone, just the ones that were delayed).

So, if you don't mind the possibility of having to come back in a day or two to p/u your gun, there is no problem. As I said earlier - it is a way

for the NICS unit to discern between two people with the same names; but again it is a voluntary request...............

[remixer 1,645]

I almost neve give the SSN to nics and its never been an issue. Its optional. The only time i would give it if the customer had another family member with a similar name.

 

 

I have issues with giving out my SSN as well.  Recent purchases, gun stores in NJ all ask for it.  So I ordered from distributors online, all they want is my name, cash, and an FFL license to mail the firearm to.  Go figure, only NJ gun stores are requiring this....

 

Just another example of the NJ firearm mentality, where you need to provide your left testicle imprint and rectal exam to purchase a firearm, according to the "all knowing gun store employee". 

 

The SSN is a field on the 4473 form so an online seller "Not distributor" would have no reason to ask you for it.  Using it on the 4473 is an optional field.  Not sure whom you have purchased from and why you had such a bad experience. You should not lump everyone together. We are not all dicks*, Most of us have top notch reputations and you can see that from our board ratings.

 

* DICKS as in the store name not the attitude of the seller . sorry it just fit.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

Yea!

What he said...................... lol

[halbautomatisch 60]

Before becoming a NJ Retail Firearm Dealer the retail store I purchased from never required SS#. I never have since I have been in business and a quick check of my ON-Line NJNICS submission form clearly states "optional" under SS#. https://www.plumstedarms.com/index.php/nics_submission_form/. I believe you will find that most do not require SS# and those that do are simply trying to understand what the laws are and how to stay out of trouble. Did you know that NICS is NOT subject to tax? Some stores add tax to NICS because they are receiving incorrect advice from their "professional" accountants who always advise to error on the side of caution. Not because they are trying to lie to you or rip you off.  I don't charge tax on NICS, in fact I don't charge for NICS at all if you purchase from me. That's the simplest way to avoid the tax debate on NICS

 

NJ Gun stores are not the villains here. Most of us are trying to do the right thing and at the same time we try to provide firearms to the public in an extremely difficult environment where simple mistakes could result in significant personal legal problems up to and including jail.  

 

I am a New Jersey Gun Store by definition and in order to have lied to you "again" I need to know when have I lied to you in the first place. Why does everything always have to be a conspiracy on every level?  

 

PM me and I will provide you with a discount coupon code for my on-line store. Maybe after a positive pleasant purchase experience you might be able to trust us. We shoot guns just like you.

Are you sure a NICS check is not taxable? From what I recall........ I know when the NICS system first went online, none of the dealers were collecting tax on the NICS fee, and then there was some sort of edict from the state that dealers needed to collect tax on the NICS check because it was a service being provided by and paid to a third party company (at that time it was MCI). I don't see any difference now in the fact that you are still paying a third party company to provide this service. Maybe a long time dealer can fill us in on what went down. I would call the Division of Taxation to confirm what you have been told, since you, the business owner, are ultimately responsible to pay for the sales tax if you're wrong. FYI - if you're including the NICS  in the price of the gun, and not breaking it out on the invoice as a separate item, you're in effect collecting tax on the NICS checks anyway.

 

Just asking.........maybe you know something I don't.

[nuclearheli 40]

Are you sure a NICS check is not taxable? From what I recall........ I know when the NICS system first went online, none of the dealers were collecting tax on the NICS fee, and then there was some sort of edict from the state that dealers needed to collect tax on the NICS check because it was a service being provided by and paid to a third party company (at that time it was MCI). I don't see any difference now in the fact that you are still paying a third party company to provide this service. Maybe a long time dealer can fill us in on what went down. I would call the Division of Taxation to confirm what you have been told, since you, the business owner, are ultimately responsible to pay for the sales tax if you're wrong. FYI - if you're including the NICS  in the price of the gun, and not breaking it out on the invoice as a separate item, you're in effect collecting tax on the NICS checks anyway.

 

Just asking.........maybe you know something I don't.

This is the reference you want to read and provide to your tax accountant. Take note of the first four paragraphs specifically.

 

http://www.state.nj....oservices.shtml

 

Specifically collection of information which is not specifically the item being sold is not taxable. When I sell a gun on my web site the gun is the subject of the sale, not the NICS check therefore the gun is subject to tax, not the gathering of information provided by the state needed to complete the sale.

[JT Custom Guns 956]

Just to be clear (and i think this debate should be in another thread) but I tottaly disagree

Plumstead Arms stance on the collection of tax on the NICS check. I guess he believes his

accountants are smarter than anyone. else's.

My accountants actually called the IRS to ask the question and according to the IRS the NICS

check IS taxable - but his post makes it look like he is right and those of us that collect the 

$1.05 in tax are wrong - well that just in NOT the case.

 

I am sure that none of the dealers want to collect any tax, but living in this state it's a necessary 

evil we all have to live with.

If Plumstead arms wants to not collect the tax on NICS - Fine! If they want to bury it in the price of the gun  -fine!

How they run there business is their business; but please don't spout off in a way that makes the other dealers

look like we are doing it wrong just to make yourself look good......

[remixer 1,645]

please don't spout off in a way that makes the other dealers

look like we are doing it wrong just to make yourself look good......

 

Sounds about right to me

 

There are plenty of BAD ffl's in this state but i can tell you from my dealings with the vendors on NJGF for the past year.

 

They are  stand up guys and are not in this to screw or take advantage of any customers. We someones go out of our way to satisfy them even when the task seems impossible.