1LtCAP 4,259 Posted November 20, 2013 whatever it takes. and I know this sounds funny, but so long as we can get you and as many people possible rejected by some court within the state. Otherwise, we stay where we are stagnant, not advancing. FORWARD, never look back. I wish we had a thermometer somewhere on the home page of this website to keep track, and all board members should submit their rejection letters to see the thermometer going up, up, up. Let the world know how tyrannical and arbitrary NJ politics are. it's an irrefutable, visual representation of our rights being denied, and a clear anecdote proving that "may issue" is a total, arbitrary joke that is only reserved for connected individuals. well, what i did, was go to the nj state pd page, and downloaded them. i'm going to wait to see if they give one to mom when she drops my stuff off tomorrow. just for the helluv it, i might also get my florida non-resident first.... also....the lady i talked to there was ULTRA NICE to me. she was more than just professional. she was nice and understanding too, and seemed to agree with what we want, understanding that the laws here are effed up. she's a pleasure to deal with, and i truly think she is just a messenger, not a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted November 20, 2013 I think that you will have to turn in the application personally, and not your mommy, as a warrants check and credential verification will have to be done on you at the time of submittal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1LtCAP 4,259 Posted November 20, 2013 I think that you will have to turn in the application personally, and not your mommy, as a warrants check and credential verification will have to be done on you at the time of submittal. no. i checked. mom stayed up here with me all summer, and after a jan.2014 trip to florida, she's coming back, and i'm stuck with her. that's not a bad thing. i work stupid hours here at the shop, and i work alone. it's very difficult for me to get out of here. upon talking to them at the pd, they've said that i can have her run the stuff down there, but that i still have to go there in person to pick up the p2p's. i have to close the shop for that unfortunately. i pay for her shooting lessons, and anything she asks for, so she doesn't mind running errands for me. i(like a good son) take advantage of her willingness to run those errands. now, when i file my application to carry........THAT i'm pretty sure i have to run down to the pd personally. i'd love to wait till nj2as is ready to do something.....and i will......till i've gotten my florida non-resident carry permit. if they've not done something by then, then i'll be filing my carry application. under reason, i'm simply going to quote the 2nd i think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luso 6 Posted November 22, 2013 Who has gotten reaction from somebody within a 2a group about this idea? Anyone noticing a pattern yet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BD104X 1 Posted November 22, 2013 I plan to move forward with it and apply myself. If anybody knows of anyplace who does the required qualification in the Monmouth county area, I'm all ears. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted November 22, 2013 Several posts in this thread have referred to 'qualification' as a requirement for a permit to carry a handgun. Where is this requirement codified? The application itself does not call for it, and 2C:58-4 only says "...the applicant demonstrates that he is not subject to any of the disabilities setforth in 2C:58-3c., that he is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns, and that he has a justifiable need to carry a handgun." There is no mention of formal training or qualification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted November 22, 2013 I'm pretty sure there is live fire qualification involved with the weapon one intends to carry. I'm unclear on whether that happens before or after the application is approved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted November 22, 2013 Thanx OGG. I'd like to see where that's promulgated in a law or regulation. It can't just be word of mouth. There's nothing about that on the NJSP web site either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted November 22, 2013 All I could find was this: Firearm Safety Training New Jersey requires that applicants for a permit to carry a handgun demonstrate a “thorough familiarity” with the safe handling and use of handguns, as evidenced by:10 Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission;11 Submission of the applicant’s most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings, administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or Passage of any test of New Jersey’s laws governing the use of force, administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor Which I got from here: http://smartgunlaws.org/concealed-weapons-permitting-in-new-jersey/ I can't tell from that whether each is a requirement, or if any one satisfies the requirement. Guessing from the way NJ operates, I would guess it's the former. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted November 22, 2013 OK, I found it. It's in the administrative code. Note that on the actual application, there's nowhere to enter the information as requested in the portion I have underlined below. I also love d (1.). Here they tell you if you have no 'urgent necessity' to carry a handgun, you won't. So if you're a future Knockout Game victim, you'll just have to take your lumps. If they don't kill you the first time, we may issue you a permit. I don't call that the definition of a 'may issue' state. I call that a 'demonstrated victim' state. 13:54-2.4 Application for a permit to carry a handgun (a) Every person applying for a permit to carry a handgun shall furnish such information and particulars as set forth in the application form designated SP 642. The application shall be signed by the applicant under oath and shall be endorsed by three reputable persons who have known the applicant for at least three years preceding the date of application, and who shall also certify thereon that the applicant is a person of good moral character and behavior. Applications can be obtained at police departments and State Police stations. (b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns may be evidenced by: 1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j; 2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; 3. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or 4. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor. © Where available, the information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s). In the absence of, or in addition to (b) 1 through 4 above, the applicant shall provide any other available and accurate information which may evidence his or her proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms, including most recent handgun qualification scores and whether he or she utilized the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry, courses attended in the safe handling and use of firearms, and extent of knowledge, however gained, of this State's laws pertaining to the use of force in the defense of person and property. (d) Each application form shall also be accompanied by a written certification of need which shall be under oath and which: 1. In the case of a private citizen shall specify in detail the urgent necessity for self-protection, as evidenced by specific threats or previous attacks which demonstrate a special danger to the applicant's life that cannot be avoided by means other than by issuance of a permit to carry a handgun. Where possible the applicant shall corroborate the existence of any specific threats or previous attacks by reference to reports of such incidents to the appropriate law enforcement agencies; or (continues with security guard info) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luso 6 Posted November 22, 2013 Need any more proof that now is the time????? This guy chose not to be a victim http://www.wilx.com/news/featured/headlines/Dangerous-Game---Point-em-Out-Knock-em-Out-231443411.html?device=phone&device=tablet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luso 6 Posted November 22, 2013 If everyone carried, these absurd knockout games never would have even started. We need a few more of these punks that are assaulting and even killing innocent people catching a bullet before they all learn their lesson. Instead they know every pedestrian in NJ is defenseless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,766 Posted November 22, 2013 Too bad! We all have to take it and can't do much about it. Hell, according to the courts, even if we had international terrorists after us, we have to take it! WTF... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted November 23, 2013 The Knockout "Game" is just one more reason that we feel threatened, and perceive a justifiable need to protect ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,766 Posted November 24, 2013 Tell it to the judge. ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luso 6 Posted November 26, 2013 So has anyone gotten feedback from any nj groups? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 26, 2013 why not spend the $35 and join NJ2AS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
louu 399 Posted November 26, 2013 I'm going to go to the meeting on the 3rd to see what they are all about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 26, 2013 Louu, thats a great thing to hear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luso 6 Posted November 27, 2013 Who says I'm not already a member? The question isn't paying arbitrary dues, it's doing something with that money that advances our freedoms. And I'm not singling out an organization, I'm curious, beyond the contact I've had, what reactions other people are having, in hopes that these orgs understand that this is something everyone wants And if they don't agree, what better alternative they might suggest to achieve this goal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 27, 2013 They do alot, with the money we donate or pay dues with. As I said numerous times in this thread that they (NJ2AS) have a process that they are doing and things are being discussed endlessly daily. Goto the meeting on Dec 3 and find out whats happening and discuss this topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 30, 2013 Here is Official Statement from NJ2AS regarding the CCW proccess: *** NEW JERSEY CARRY PERMITS - WHAT NEXT?If you want to participate in the discussion of how to proceed with efforts to change New Jersey's Carry Permit Application Process, you need to show up at the December third meeting of the NJ2AS to be held at the Knights of Columbus in Toms River.BE PART OF THE SOLUTION!!!Details of the meeting can be found at the link below:http://nj2as.com/EVENTS?eventId=781940&EventViewMode=EventDetails BTW: You do not need to be a member to attend so please come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frank Jack Fiamingo 58 Posted November 30, 2013 NJ2AS asked members to all pick up Carry applications several months ago and I figured there would be a day when a thousand people would all apply en masse with a standard and uniform letter. Nothing ever came of it. Too bad, the state's defense in the 3rd Circuit carry case - which we lost - was that they already approve almost 95% of applicants. They failed to mention that only 800 armed guards apply every year because everyone else is intimidated by having to check "I was denied" on the firearms application for the rest of their lives. This is far from a dead issue, but it makes sense to have a definite plan in mind before we forge ahead with the idea of mass submission. The question we haven't been able to answer adequately is - What Next? I don't think it is enough just to annoy anyone. Our ultimate goal is to succeed in removing the obstacles imposed by the three branches of NJ government on the right to carry. The question is always how best to accomplish that goal. We will be meeting this coming month on Dec 3 in Toms River to discuss this subject. We would appreciate your participation. We will CONTINUE this discussion as we have meetings throughout the state moving them to different locations each month. The details of these meetings can be obtained from our webstie www.nj2as.com. I realize that it seems like forever that we have been waiting to exercise what SHOULD be an obvious right. Unfortunately, the state of NJ has taken a relatively hard-nosed position on this for so long, it has become embedded in the political culture. We have to find a way to overcome this misguided bias *OR* win in the courts. So far, seeking redress in the courts has not been very fruitful, so I think we all need to go back to the drawing board. If you want to share your ideas on how to proceed, please attend the meeting on Dec. 3 or one of the subsequent meetings. This will remain a topic for consideration until it has been resolved in our favor. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 30, 2013 Thank you Frank for you hard work! Thank you Frank for coming here and commenting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted November 30, 2013 Great to see that NJ2AS is giving this issue serious consideration! I would love to make it to this meeting, but it's going to be rough on a work night. (FWIW, I've been a member for a couple of years, but as noted, I'm not on Facebook, so I remain somewhat in the dark on these matters.) Thanks for joining in here Frank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ogfarmer 138 Posted November 30, 2013 Old glock guy, you can make a anonymous acct and only use it to moniter what happening. Its more of a up to the minute discussion on a lot of 2A topics. I personally hate FB but have a acct just for these reasons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frank Jack Fiamingo 58 Posted November 30, 2013 Who says I'm not already a member? The question isn't paying arbitrary dues, it's doing something with that money that advances our freedoms. And I'm not singling out an organization, I'm curious, beyond the contact I've had, what reactions other people are having, in hopes that these orgs understand that this is something everyone wants And if they don't agree, what better alternative they might suggest to achieve this goal Yes, it is completely understood that we all want the option to protect and defend our lives, or families, our neighborhoods, our communities our state and our nation, if necessary. The problem we face is how can we overcome the unreasonable bias that has become DEEPLY embedded in the political culture of our state. You will not see me pretending to have the answer. That is why I am looking for your help. I am not begging for money, I would rather have a winning idea *ANY* day. The question is HOW do we remove these obstacles imposed by the three beranches of NJ government? Perhaps together we can come up with an approach that works for NJ. Anyone who thinks that the NJ2AS is not open to workable ideas has not been paying attention. So, come and participate. You don't have to be a member to attend our meetings. You just have to be sincerely interested in furthering the mission of removing the obstacles to our natural human right to keep and bear arms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frank Jack Fiamingo 58 Posted November 30, 2013 Thank you Frank for coming here and commenting! I apologize for taking so long. The NJ2AS has grown so rapidly that it has been extremely difficult to participate in all our Facebook Groups, Twitter, our website and still have time to post here. I have been looking for an "APP" that would consolidate some of this so that I could somehow participate in all the venues that have an interest in RKBA. Nothing so far. If someone has a suggestion, please let me know. I realize there are some significant advantages to "forum" like environments over "Facebook", especially in being able to track and participate in different "threads". That is damn near IMPOSSIBLE on Facebook. The more people we have participating, the faster stuff gets pushed to the bottom. It would be GREAT if there were something that had the "reach" of Facebook and Twitter, but the thread tracking and search capabilities of a forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frank Jack Fiamingo 58 Posted November 30, 2013 I'm going to go to the meeting on the 3rd to see what they are all about. Please do! If I can make a suggestion, come with the idea of contributing your ideas. The thing that will help make the NJ2AS work even better is an infusion of new ideas from people who are passionate about their rights. We welcome everyone and how you will bring your ideas with you. The NJ2AS is an all-volunteer organization. No one gets paid for their participation, so every dime goes back into moving the mission forward. Of course, along with this approach comes the reality that we are all amateurs trying the best we can to have an impact. Thos of you who happen to be particularly politicallly asutute can be a HUGE help as can those who have good organizational skills or other talents. In any event, we look forward to meeting you. The Dec 3 mweeting should be a good meeting to attend since we plan to quickly review our progress so far, discuss our goals for the future and encourgae an interactive discussion of how to approach the most pressing issues including these ridiculous delays we are all facing when applying for FIDs and P2Ps, and of course - CARRY! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Se9 0 Posted December 1, 2013 Good to hear I will not be able to attend the meeting but this is a course we must take why don't we put the burdon of what is exactly justifiable need back in the states hands and explain to the people the criteria they must meet to ccw in NJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites