civil liability with hollow point ammo

[boo 6]

I was at a LGS yesterday, and I was told that in an otherwise clean HD shooting situation, if I'm using hollow points, I'll always loose a civil case unless the person is also shooting at me with hollow points. He likened it to a car accident situation where if you rear end someone, you'll always be to blame. He then went on to recommend Hornady critical defense because they aren't "legally" hollow point.

 

Now I know civil liability will always be a concern in any shooting situation, but can anyone verify or disagree with this? 

[matty 810]

"I was at a LGS yesterday, and I was told"

 

Unless LGS means Lawyer Guys Shop, I would take anything I hear from someone st a gun shop with huge grains of salt. never have heard of a precedent for civil liability and hollowpoins in an HD situation. Stop worrying so much

[Malsua 1,422]

I have yet to hear of a case that hinged upon the type of ammo used.  Either you are justified or you are not.   Deadly force is deadly force.   The concept that you would lose a civil case because you used slightly more deadly force than an attacker is silly.

[deerpark 83]

In Jersey youre guilty until proven incarcerated. 

 

I sometimes see that critical defense on the shelf.  Whats the difference between it and hollow points?

[DSD1026 48]

Hollow point is "JHP"..    Hornady Critical Defense is "FTX" (Flex Tip eXpanding).  Its not a true hollow point because the opening is smaller and there is some red waxy stuff that plugs the "hollow point"..  real world application, it does virtually the same thing, but its meant not to be listed as a true "hollow point"

 

I always kept JHP in my HD pistol, but i just recently (i.e. Yesterday) got a small box of the Hornady stuff to keep in my gun while its being used as a HD gun..   "just in case"..   i still have a second mag loaded with JHP, but the one IN the gun is the Hornady now.. 

[67gtonut 847]

I have switched over to the Hornady Critical Duty .......   Couple of reasons......

 

Because of this silly state and the "gray" area this ammo falls into...

 

and

 

After reading some test results..... I am very confident in this ammo doing all aspects of what I need it to do in a HD situation

[mcbethr 42]

I use the Hornady Critical Defense.

 

I never intend to get in a shooting, but if I do, I sure as hell want something with the word "Defense" in the title.

[illy 1]

Hornady Critical Defense/Duty in all my handguns. 

 

The polymer insert actually serves a purpose outside of NJ legalities. By filling the cavity with a firm, but pliable material, it prevents any clogging  (by clothes, etc) ensuring consistent expansion once the bullet hit liquid/flesh.

See for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWFbuzX-l8

[Duppie 73]

I also have the critical defense loads available for all my guns simply because in this state you never know. I never saw that vid that Alpo posted but good to know. Thanks.

[Howard 538]

In the people's republic of New Jersey every round you fire has a lawyer attached to it.  There are certain exceptions for most of those fired at a range or in competition, but some of them can have lawyers attached to them also.  Bottom line is it will be highly unlikely that you will not get sued in civil court if you shoot a bad guy in your home as some lawyer somewhere in this state will see it as an opportunity for a pay day.

[siderman 1,137]

I have yet to hear of a case that hinged upon the type of ammo used.  Either you are justified or you are not.   Deadly force is deadly force.   The concept that you would lose a civil case because you used slightly more deadly force than an attacker is silly.

 

 

What he said. Unless someone can post a law that says hp's shall not be used in the home for self defense? Deadly force is deadly force. Besides there is judicial precedent (Aitken judge) that any bullit designed to expand (FTX) is a hp. To say a non-hp is less deadly force is like arguing in court  a .22 is less deadly than a 357- doesnt matter, its the trigger pull that matters.

[TheDon 3]

When asked "why" you use hollow points, NEVER mention stopping power. 

I use HP ammo for safety reasons.  I believe there is less of a risk to my family from over penetration and going through walls.  I believe that is the same reason why law enforcement uses hollow point. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Hollow point is "JHP"..    Hornady Critical Defense is "FTX" (Flex Tip eXpanding).  Its not a true hollow point because the opening is smaller and there is some red waxy stuff that plugs the "hollow point"..  real world application, it does virtually the same thing, but its meant not to be listed as a true "hollow point"

 

I always kept JHP in my HD pistol, but i just recently (i.e. Yesterday) got a small box of the Hornady stuff to keep in my gun while its being used as a HD gun..   "just in case"..   i still have a second mag loaded with JHP, but the one IN the gun is the Hornady now.. 

 

Did you test your new self-defense ammo to see if it reliably feeds YESTERDAY as well??  Did you do it for BOTH mags?  Not trying to nit-pick, but there have been cases reported at local ranges where some of this new "non HP ammo" has not fed well in semi-autos.  Wheelgun owners need not have this particular worry....

 

Rule of thumb is fire at least a box and split it up into every mag you own.  And see if it cycles using weak hand only technique, because if for any reason you're strong hand is disabled (shot, broken, crushed or otherwise unavailable) you'll still want your semi-auto to function.  Often, Shootists like myself will drop-in a slightly lighter spring to ensure effective cycling in a gunfight, thus preventing the dreaded jam of "limp-wristing".  Sometimes all it takes is a 2 pound difference in the recoil spring.  We also practice weak-hand only shooting techniques...

 

Relying on untested ammo is NOT someplace you wanna be in a gunfight........

 

Dave

[DSD1026 48]

Did you test your new self-defense ammo to see if it reliably feeds YESTERDAY as well??  Did you do it for BOTH mags?  Not trying to nit-pick, but there have been cases reported at local ranges where some of this new "non HP ammo" has not fed well in semi-autos.  Wheelgun owners need not have this particular worry....

 

Rule of thumb is fire at least a box and split it up into every mag you own.  And see if it cycles using weak hand only technique, because if for any reason you're strong hand is disabled (shot, broken, crushed or otherwise unavailable) you'll still want your semi-auto to function.  Often, Shootists like myself will drop-in a slightly lighter spring to ensure effective cycling in a gunfight, thus preventing the dreaded jam of "limp-wristing".  Sometimes all it takes is a 2 pound difference in the recoil spring.  We also practice weak-hand only shooting techniques...

 

Relying on untested ammo is NOT someplace you wanna be in a gunfight........

 

Dave

of course not.  I simply loaded my mag with it last night (i have the other mag with my regular JHP, which i know fires fine)..  havent been able to get to the range since 6pm last night..  (?)..  besides, my main HD gun is my shotgun (which i know works with the ammo its loaded with).. the pistol is there in case i cant get to that, but since they are right next to each other, that isnt likely.. 

 

FYI - i actually have already put a 2 lb lighter recoil spring in my semi auto...  i typically shoot lighter loads, so that helps it...  the heavier factory spring was one of the reasons I was getting FTE's (along with the extractor, which was replaced)

 

my upstairs HD gun is a snubbie, so i wouldn't have that worry...  i will eventually get some Hornady for that, but for now, that has JHP in it as well...

[illy 1]

I run a box of every HD ammo I plan to load through each gun that it'll be loaded in, always.

I even do it in the wheel guns, mainly to check POI.

[boo 6]

Thanks all. That stuff sure is expense at more than $1/round! I'll run a box or two to make sure it works and go with that.

[ogfarmer 138]

ouch.. I see it on Cabelas for .84 a round

 

I paid about .54 a round. 50 rounds for $27 at a LGS

 

I have run this thru all my HG's and keep two mags for each on hand. I have never had a FTF or FTE.

[67gtonut 847]

sgammo.com has the Hornaday stuff at a decent price

[Joeyd6 0]

When deadly force is justified, the method used is NOT an issue.  Not in NJ, NY or any other state.  You can drown them hit with a  frying pan, use a pen, a Swiss Army Knife, run them over with a car, rock to the head, etc....  The method used has no bearing on a civil suit.  

 

Albeit a civil case has a much lower burden of proof for a judgment, it is still about the death, not tool used. 

[illy 1]

aim surplus had boxes of 25 for about $17-18.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Wait, so if someone breaks into my house, I not only need to cower in a corner and determine if he's armed; but now I need to check his bullets as well?

[boo 6]

Wait, so if someone breaks into my house, I not only need to cower in a corner and determine if he's armed; but now I need to check his bullets as well?

 

heh, that's what he was saying. I'd literally have to ask the person what kind of bullets they were shooting at me. The exception, however, was if I was LEO.

[Turbotezza 1]

What he said. Unless someone can post a law that says hp's shall not be used in the home for self defense? Deadly force is deadly force. Besides there is judicial precedent (Aitken judge) that any bullit designed to expand (FTX) is a hp. To say a non-hp is less deadly force is like arguing in court  a .22 is less deadly than a 357- doesnt matter, its the trigger pull that matters.

When it comes to firearms and ammo in NJ, the law tells what you can do with something. If it isn't specifically mentioned, you can't do/use/posses it. In the case of hollowpoints, you can possess it at home and use it at the range and that's it.

[mipafox 438]

How many states have laws against hollowpoints?

 

What percentage of police don't carry hollowpoints?

[carl_g 568]

for 9mm, Are you guys running the critical defense of the critical duty (which is +P)?

[Michael2013 56]

Hornady Critical Defense/Duty in all my handguns. 

 

The polymer insert actually serves a purpose outside of NJ legalities. By filling the cavity with a firm, but pliable material, it prevents any clogging  (by clothes, etc) ensuring consistent expansion once the bullet hit liquid/flesh.

 

See for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWFbuzX-l8

 

Yep, same thing, same reason...

 

for 9mm, Are you guys running the critical defense of the critical duty (which is +P)?

In my case - critical defense.

[Spartiati 63]

I was at a LGS yesterday, and I was told that in an otherwise clean HD shooting situation, if I'm using hollow points, I'll always loose a civil case unless the person is also shooting at me with hollow points. He likened it to a car accident situation where if you rear end someone, you'll always be to blame. He then went on to recommend Hornady critical defense because they aren't "legally" hollow point.

 

Now I know civil liability will always be a concern in any shooting situation, but can anyone verify or disagree with this?

 

I don't see the validity in his argument "when you hit someone from behind you are automatically at fault"... If this logic was correct it wouldn't matter what ammo you use, you would automatically be guilty of muder if you defend yourself and kill someone with a gun. Now if you were automatically at fault if you hit someone from behind in a blue car I might buy it.

 

More gun shop BS.

[Spartiati 63]

When it comes to firearms and ammo in NJ, the law tells what you can do with something. If it isn't specifically mentioned, you can't do/use/posses it. In the case of hollowpoints, you can possess it at home and use it at the range and that's it.

The law doesn't specifically say you can use round nose in self defense so you can't use that either?? Not sure I buy that.

[Handyman 5,682]

When asked "why" you use hollow points, NEVER mention stopping power. 

I use HP ammo for safety reasons.  I believe there is less of a risk to my family from over penetration and going through walls.  I believe that is the same reason why law enforcement uses hollow point. 

 

This has always been my reasoning too. It is astonishing to me that for some reason HPs are regarded as more evil. I know living in an apartment I would hope all the neighbors used them!

 

Won't a ballistic vest theoretically work better against an HP too?

[mcbethr 42]

Won't a ballistic vest theoretically work better against an HP too?

 

I think so.  Considering the HP bullet is supposed to puff up its spending some if its energy in the expansion process as opposed to penetrating the vest.  If I'm shooting at people with vests on... oh I hope the world never comes to that.

 

You see a justified shooting once in a while on NJ.com . Nobody ever seems to be prosecuted for hollow point or ball ammunition either way.  Like I said, I just like the word "defense" on the box.