Drilling a Brake

[bhunted 887]

I was being facetious...

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk 2 Pro

[Sharrie*1 1]

Thanks guys for the great comments.

 

I am using a drill press not a hand held drill. I do not want to try jb weld, especially now that I have the beginnings of a hole drilled thru the brake.

 

Also, thanks to the guys with shops that suggested that I send the brake to you. As a last resort I will do this. The truth is my son and I are doing a father/son build and I would love to be able to complete this with him.

 

Question remixer: The carbide bit you spoke about; is this a solid carbide drill or a carbide tipped masonry drill?

 

Thanks again!

[Sharrie*1 1]

Sorry double post...having a heck of a time with the site tonight.

[Shane45 807]

Solid

[remixer 1,645]

Thanks guys for the great comments.

 

I am using a drill press not a hand held drill. I do not want to try jb weld, especially now that I have the beginnings of a hole drilled thru the brake.

 

Also, thanks to the guys with shops that suggested that I send the brake to you. As a last resort I will do this. The truth is my son and I are doing a father/son build and I would love to be able to complete this with him.

 

Question remixer: The carbide bit you spoke about; is this a solid carbide drill or a carbide tipped masonry drill?

 

Thanks again!

Solid

 

If u wanna stop by I will just punch a hole in the brake for you then u can finish it

[remixer 1,645]

OK, I stand corrected. Then someone else is misinformed and that I will get corrected quick-fast-not-slow and get back to yaz. Becayse this whole thing is BS... Who gives a crap how it's held on as long as it cannot be removed with tools.

I'm going to really dig into this deeper...

 

I would say the authorities care lol .

 

You can dig but since nj does not specify the method if making a threaded barrel not threaded we refer to the ATF regulations and they are specific

 

That not to say it does not make sense but it's the rules

 

Btw. A pinned and welded brake can be removed But it destroys the threads hence

Not threaded anymore so I ident recommend people test the strengths of there brakes lol

[checko 180]

I don't doubt it. Clarify though... Isn't the whole point is not to be able to unscrew it on the fly and add a suppressor? If the thought is that weld/pin means the barrel will be destroyed, then yes. If it means someone will pin it to stop the owner from removing it and adding something illegal themselves, thats a bad excuse. May not be as easy as cutting down a shotgun barrel, but cutting an AR barrel off, recrown, rethreaded and made suppressor friendly. All this does is protect the ffl and put the weight on the owner.

 

My opinion, it should be good enough as long as it cannot be changed -easily-..... But that's just me..

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

In think the idea behind it is so that there is never an opportunity for a suppressor to be attached, not to make it particularly difficult. Thats why they want a "permanently attached muzzle device".

 

Yeah, I know it's fairly easy to acquire a threaded barrel and suppressor and assemble it to an existing ar upper, especially if you don't really care about committing a crime, but the people who make these laws are not exactly armorers.

 

[bhunted 887]

In think the idea behind it is so that there is never an opportunity for a suppressor to be attached, not to make it particularly difficult. Thats why they want a "permanently attached muzzle device".Yeah, I know it's fairly easy to acquire a threaded barrel and suppressor and assemble it to an existing ar upper, especially if you don't really care about committing a crime, but the people who make these laws are not exactly armorers.

Nor have brains. You can destroy the threads, yadda yadda... But cut it clean and rethread and you got a fresh barrel minus an inch or two...

 

Anyone have a link handy to the atf ruling regarding not using jb weld... Be much appreciated.

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk 2 Pro

[bhunted 887]

OK, I found a copy of the ATF letter from 1998 that describes the method, etc...

 

This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask
about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms.

A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which
is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature
silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees
Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of
measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the
circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around
the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose.

A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension
permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on
a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle.
Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension
which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would
still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic
assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section
921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable
method for permanently attaching a muzzle device.

[bhunted 887]

OK, with that being said.... I have 3 observations to speak of...

 

1) 1100 degrees can be accomplished with silver solder paste with flux and nothing less that a torch using nothing less than MAPP Gas... (holding torch on barrel too long will ruin it)

2) Welding at least 1/2 half is simply a shody way and fine if you do not care about aestetics. (this can be circumvented just as easy by grinding away the weld with a cutting wheel such as a dremel)

3) No where does it say -pinning- and -welding- in the manner most common around here to be legal or acceptable. (???)

 

I see only 2 methods acceptable. Unless there are definitive laws depicted in the ATF rulings, I see no reason for pinning to be legal either. Please elaborate. I'm interested and curious as well.

'What Say You'...?

[alowerlevel 77]

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/60147-blind-pinning-and-welding-comp/#entry770246

[remixer 1,645]

see below

[remixer 1,645]

I see only 2 methods acceptable. Unless there are definitive laws depicted in the ATF rulings, I see no reason for pinning to be legal either. Please elaborate. I'm interested and curious as well.

 

'What Say You'...?

 

I say nothing but the ATF says

 

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

 

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to

the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of

attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver

soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod

into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the

furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and

measured.

 

'What Say You'...?

 

 

Pin and Weld, Silver Solder and welding are acceptable. JB weld is not. That letter you posted is useless in your argument of using JB weld.  Silver Solder has a melting point double that of JBweld.

 

I'm not sure how your are using this letter to prove your argument as its completely voids it.

 

I wont even bother continuing this conversion as its going no place. Simple if you use JB weld to attach a muzzle brake you do so at your own risk but DONT tell others its acceptable as you are incorrect, Your bad info can possibly ruin someones life.

[bhunted 887]

Thanks... I just spent 30 mins searching the atf site for that damn manual...

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/60147-blind-pinning-and-welding-comp/#entry770246

[bhunted 887]

I'm not trying to prove anything. I already admitted to being corrected and wrong. (See post #25 in this thread),
 

That letter was not to prove JB Weld use at all. No where did it mention it. That was a letter from the ATF to an FFL holder which somewhat sunstantiates the partial ruling. I had problems finding ATF info... (Thanks alowerlevel)...

 

Now that I have all the data I need, I will go out and correct the offenders in the field... Okedokee?

 

Thanks for everyone's input...

 

I say nothing but the ATF says

 

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

 

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.

 

'What Say You'...?

 

 

Pin and Weld, Silver Solder and welding are acceptable. JB weld is not. That letter you posted is useless in your argument of using JB weld.  Silver Solder has a melting point double that of JBweld.

 

I'm not sure how your are using this letter to prove your argument as its completely voids it.

 

I wont even bother continuing this conversion as its going no place. Simple if you use JB weld to attach a muzzle brake you do so at your own risk but DONT tell others its acceptable as you are incorrect, Your bad info can possibly ruin someones life.

[remixer 1,645]

 

Now that I have all the data I need, I will go out and correct the offenders in the field... Okedokee?

 

Thanks for everyone's input...

 

Excellent idea don't forget to check their magazines

[bhunted 887]

Especially Playboy and Penthouse and a few others... (Just kidding)...

 

Don't get me started on Mags... That's a whole other argument.

[Barms 98]

I am not challenging any I the FFLs here I am just asking a question. The above ATF procedure looks like it in a context for determining how a brake is attached for compliance for barrel "measurement". But if you have a 16" barrel the measurement test doesn't apply.

 

So then aren't we back to what guidance was given for just the threaded issue? Please I'm not challenging just asking a reasonable question to ATF language. I like this dialogue

[remixer 1,645]

Hi,

 

that is true, Its the only ruling we have in regards to making a threaded muzzle device into a permanent part of the barrel.  So if a 14.5 inch barrel is 16" when a muzzle device is added and permanently attached then a 16" barrel with a threaded end is no long threaded when a muzzle device is permanently attached

 

NJ has no state ruling so we refer back to the ATF regs. 

 

I also enjoy the dialogue even though it had been debated over and over

 

PLEASE DONT CALL the AG and ask he will only rule it illegal and write it into law

[bhunted 887]

My head hurts. My build has a 16" threaded barrel with a Troy Claymore on it. Now it's about 18"... Boy this gets tedious...

[remixer 1,645]

My head hurts. My build has a 16" threaded barrel with a Troy Claymore on it. Now it's about 18"... Boy this gets tedious... Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

 

[bhunted 887]

Now let's see... If I take a dowel and shove it up the AGs *bleep* and measure the difference between his ears, we'd find that his pecker was permanently attached to his face using JB Snot!

 

Whoop! Time for another beer!

[JoeTK37 8]

 

Now that I have all the data I need, I will go out and correct the offenders in the field... Okedokee?

 

Thanks for everyone's input...

Care to elaborate on which FFL's may be offending locally for those who have had work done and may now be "compromised"?

[remixer 1,645]

he was joking

[Shane45 807]

On the topic of FFL faux pas, let me just put this out there. Be carefull who you choose for compliance work or who you buy from. NO I will not name names because I did not buy the rifle myself from the FFL nor was I present when it was puchased. But I have had several rifles come through the door with:

 

Brakes pinned upside down.

Brakes pinned but didnt penetrate the barrel at all.

Stocks pinned bayo shaved, but no pinny pin in the brake! Missed a step

Flash hiders pinned.

 

Inspect your purchase/work performed as best as you can!!!

[remixer 1,645]

On the topic of FFL faux pas, let me just put this out there. Be carefull who you choose for compliance work or who you buy from. NO I will not name names because I did not buy the rifle myself from the FFL nor was I present when it was puchased. But I have had several rifles come through the door with:

 

Brakes pinned upside down.

Brakes pinned but didnt penetrate the barrel at all.

Stocks pinned bayo shaved, but no pinny pin in the brake! Missed a step

Flash hiders pinned.

 

Inspect your purchase/work performed as best as you can!!!

 

Im innocent of at least 3 of those offenses   Only kidding.

 

But its a good point. I have seen things some FFL's do which are questionable at best.

that being said.

 

If you have a question about your brake being pinned the last thing you want to do it try and remove it.  The brake will still come off with force but will destroy the threads while your doing it. If in doubt ask the FFL before you leave.

[Shane45 807]

Good point remixer, I probably should have included a dont try this at home statement

[raz-0 1,259]

OK, with that being said.... I have 3 observations to speak of...

 

1) 1100 degrees can be accomplished with silver solder paste with flux and nothing less that a torch using nothing less than MAPP Gas... (holding torch on barrel too long will ruin it)

2) Welding at least 1/2 half is simply a shody way and fine if you do not care about aestetics. (this can be circumvented just as easy by grinding away the weld with a cutting wheel such as a dremel)

3) No where does it say -pinning- and -welding- in the manner most common around here to be legal or acceptable. (???)

 

I see only 2 methods acceptable. Unless there are definitive laws depicted in the ATF rulings, I see no reason for pinning to be legal either. Please elaborate. I'm interested and curious as well.

'What Say You'...?

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

 

pinning and welding. Section 2.1.3

[Sharrie*1 1]

Ok all,

 

We have 2 conversations going on here...I am cool with that, but I am still interested in getting my brake legally attached.

 

So, I ordered a solid carbide drill bit. I is scheduled for delivery on Monday. When I am drilling with this bit, I should use heavy pressure on the drill press and lots of oil, correct?

[Shane45 807]

DO NOT USE HEAVY PRESSURE. It will be a bad day if you snap a carbide bit in a half drilled hole. Unless you have a buddy with a wire EDM . Honestly, I would take up some of the offers that have been made. It may seem a simple thing to High Temp Silver Solder or punch holes in things. But the reality is experience and feel mean a ton when doing things like this. Hell I dont silver solder and I play with heats up in the 2600 to 3000 degree range because I know I dont have the experience and feel for that particuler pursuit. And if not done right, the risk for ruining other peoples property is high. Same with punching through brakes and in to barrels. Seen enough holes punched right through the brake and barrel by supposed gunsmiths to be able to say this work is not for everyone. Do people that arent gunsmiths do it? Sure! But how many bung it up and you never hear about it. And in the end does their work look like this?