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Gunnz

AR Poll- AR Newb with no Clue

Build or Buy?  

57 members have voted

  1. 1. Build my own AR or buy?

    • Build my own AR
      35
    • Buy an entry level AR (m&p15)
      23


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Build it....

 

Get exactly what you want... Not sure what you want? Use cheap take off parts that are used.... Then upgrade....

Agree with Vlad. I like to buy cheaper entry points and then upgrade them so I learn the weapons platform. But...an AR for home defense? Little long to bring up quick and around corners just an FYI.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

 

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But...an AR for home defense? Little long to bring up quick and around corners just an FYI.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Balderdash, FYI.

 

I can clear a structure just as fast and more efficiently with an AR than a pistol or shotgun and I do so regularly.

 

Additionally, the AR platform offer superior ballistics, both in regards to terminal ballistics on target and in reduced penetration of domestic construction material when compared to a pistol or shotgun.

 

If ARs were so slow to clear corners why does every high speed direct action unit who has CQB/FISHing as a primary mission focus use an AR as a primary weapon?

 

 

That said, based on the OPs statements I recommend buying a complete AR for the first one. Once you are comfortable with the platform - build away!

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Instant gratification. :)

 

Based on his statements, he is hesitant - bordering on reluctant - to build one himself, and he doesn't know what he wants. So, IMO he should buy a bare bones model, learn what he likes and what he wants to do with it, then upgrade to fill that role or build a second rifle to fill that role.

 

S&W is the only non mil-spec AR I would recommend BTW, and for the price of a sport ~$600 he can't go wrong.

 

I usually tell people to build their own rifle and have helped a lot of my friends do so. In this case, I just don't think it is the way to go.

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well as much as I respect your opinion I completely and totally disagree... 

 

my fiance and I were talking about building guns last night.. and I told her the first time I ever held an AR15 in a gun store the kid working the counter told me if I wanted one to just build it because it would be a lot cheaper.. I nodded in agreement as he explained about lower parts kits.. triggers and all that.. but in my head? I thought quietly to myself yeah right.. build a gun so I can blow myself up... several months to a year later I bought my M&P15.. decent gun.. no real issues.. I then started to parts shop.. and really get an understanding of the gun... and the very first thing I really learned.. I should have listened to that kid.. because everything he told me was the truth.. 

 

so now.. every time this question is asked.. I think back to that day.. and the regret I ultimately felt when I realized just how easy they are to work on.. 

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well as much as I respect your opinion I completely and totally disagree... 

 

my fiance and I were talking about building guns last night.. and I told her the first time I ever held an AR15 in a gun store the kid working the counter told me if I wanted one to just build it because it would be a lot cheaper.. I nodded in agreement as he explained about lower parts kits.. triggers and all that.. but in my head? I thought quietly to myself yeah right.. build a gun so I can blow myself up... several months to a year later I bought my M&P15.. decent gun.. no real issues.. I then started to parts shop.. and really get an understanding of the gun... and the very first thing I really learned.. I should have listened to that kid.. because everything he told me was the truth.. 

 

so now.. every time this question is asked.. I think back to that day.. and the regret I ultimately felt when I realized just how easy they are to work on..

 

Personally, I agree with your opinion here 110%. Building an AR is stupid easy and the best way to get onto ARs regardless of price... Like I said, 98% of the time my answer is "I will show you what to buy and you can build your own. I will help you of you gut stuck".

 

But...... In this particular instance it is not.

 

Some people are too lazy to build their own, and want to just walk into a shop and buy a rifle.

 

Some people are so mechanically inept they can break a ball bearing and have no business being around tools.

 

Some people are WECSOG graduates and can take a bunch of perfectly good parts and build a peice of junk

 

Some people get so overwhelmed by the choices out there they just give up.

 

Some people subscribe to the "parts is parts" philosophy and try to build the cheapest gun they can, then wonder why it doesn't run.

 

Some people have no business building a firearm and should just buy their rifles.

 

Based on the OPs own posts - not having tools, unsure of his ability, uncomfortable with the platform - I think he would get more out of buying his first rifle and learning how it operates while cleaning, inspecting, shooting it. When he is comfortable, then he can think about building one.

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Balderdash, FYI.

 

I can clear a structure just as fast and more efficiently with an AR than a pistol or shotgun and I do so regularly.

 

Additionally, the AR platform offer superior ballistics, both in regards to terminal ballistics on target and in reduced penetration of domestic construction material when compared to a pistol or shotgun.

 

If ARs were so slow to clear corners why does every high speed direct action unit who has CQB/FISHing as a primary mission focus use an AR as a primary weapon?

 

 

That said, based on the OPs statements I recommend buying a complete AR for the first one. Once you are comfortable with the platform - build away!

 

First, no military teams use an "AR." They would use an M16/M4.  Sure we could say I'm splitting hairs but since we all scream holier than thou at the anti's for messing up the terms I'm going to hold you to the same standard.  

 The most common weapon used in today's military is the M4 however an AR is NOT an M4.  No, it's not the same so please don't say it is.  Combat ranges under 200 yards(which is highly common in Iraq for example) have  smaller impact on terminal effects. Greater than 200? Sure the longer barrel is "better(and this is HIGHLY debateable)" but I'll say it again. Most urban combat is WELL under 200 yards.  Simply put those few inches on a gun(if I recall it's 1.5 total? maybe 2"?) in an urban setting do make a difference and since other weapons in the toolkit are can be used for tossing lead over a longer range the shorter length works perfectly fine.  That's why we have those DMR guys. And besides, he's not even able to buy a shortened version with a collapsible stock so it's not the same thing as what the teams are currently using.

 

To act like an AR is the best home defense weapon he can buy is bit over the top. I know we have tons of AR fanboys on here but here's some food for thought.

 

http://defensetech.org/2007/03/26/special-forces-say-no-to-m4-barrel/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ar_disgrace.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/replacing-the-m16-five-lethal-candidates/6/

 

Just want to shoot some paper? I still agree with Vlad, build it and learn it so you become comfortable with the weapon system.

 

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Well, since I started this debate let me update everyone....

I picked up an Mp sport model from remixer last week. His price of under 600 was too good to pass up.

Hope I have time to go her out this weekend.

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First, no military teams use an "AR." They would use an M16/M4. Sure we could say I'm splitting hairs but since we all scream holier than thou at the anti's for messing up the terms I'm going to hold you to the same standard.

 

The most common weapon used in today's military is the M4 however an AR is NOT an M4. No, it's not the same so please don't say it is. Combat ranges under 200 yards(which is highly common in Iraq for example) have smaller impact on terminal effects. Greater than 200? Sure the longer barrel is "better(and this is HIGHLY debateable)" but I'll say it again. Most urban combat is WELL under 200 yards. Simply put those few inches on a gun(if I recall it's 1.5 total? maybe 2"?) in an urban setting do make a difference and since other weapons in the toolkit are can be used for tossing lead over a longer range the shorter length works perfectly fine. That's why we have those DMR guys. And besides, he's not even able to buy a shortened version with a collapsible stock so it's not the same thing as what the teams are currently using.

 

To act like an AR is the best home defense weapon he can buy is bit over the top. I know we have tons of AR fanboys on here but here's some food for thought.

 

http://defensetech.org/2007/03/26/special-forces-say-no-to-m4-barrel/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ar_disgrace.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/replacing-the-m16-five-lethal-candidates/6/

 

Just want to shoot some paper? I still agree with Vlad, build it and learn it so you become comfortable with the weapon system.

 

b8106c7ad86869ee6da2bb1b9804b3f0_zps1993

 

First, the M16 FOW is what it is. "Civilian" ARs :rolleyes: are in that family - like it or not. It has the same manual of arms, fires the same cartridge, same ergonomics, same operation cycle and principles, same ammunition feeding device, same BCG. To say otherwise is delving into useless esoteric minutae at best. Oh, and just to pick nits, the Military certainly uses "ARs" if by "AR" you are referring to "Assault Rifle" - a rifle firing a medium cartridge with the ability to fire in full auto/burst.

 

An "M16" - by military designation - is a select fire rifle, chambered in 5.56x45 with a 20" barrel and a rifle length gas system. An M4" is a select fire rifle, chambered in 5.56x45 with a 14.5" barrel and a carbine length gas system first spec'd out by the USMC and finally adopted by the US Army. I can buy the exact same rifle (in either configuration: M16 or M4) from a number of companies, including Colt who manufactures the M16/M4s for the US Government - minus the FA feature feature of course - and other than some cosmetic changes required by NJ an US Army M4 or USMC M16A4 will be the same rifle that I just purchased.

 

Second, what the heck are you talking about? You are all over the place... Iraq, DMRs, combat ranges over/under 200 yards....? None of that is relevant unles you live in a Shopping Mall/Costco and have 200 yard shots in your home. We are talking about FISHing here. CQB, not field engagements. You brought up HD and stated that an AR is "Little long to bring up quick and around corners". I say shenanigans! I am as fast, if not faster, with any of my carbines than anything else. I train regularly for FISHing type jobs and do it operationally on a regular basis. The Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTPs) required are easy and intuitive and the basics can be learned with minimal effort.

 

With the correct TTPs any sized room can be cleared quickly and efficiently with an AR, and with a higher chance of desired results if the situation dictates that I need to go loud. My 14.5" AR (hey, wow, just like an M4!) extends just as far from my body as holding a pistol in an isosceles stance. There are TTPs to quickly negotiate tight corners, small rooms, ladders, stairs, etc with a rifle that will allow me to put 5.56 rounds on target, instead of relying on 12g or a pistol rounds if I have to give someone the bees. I have better control over a slung AR than a pistol for weapon retention and the 5.56x45/.223 has less penetration through sheetrock, wood, and other US domestic building materials. ARs are inherently more accurate, softer recoiling, and allow for faster and more accurate follow up shots than either pistols or gauges.

 

These are just some of the reasons why direct action teams, LEO in addition to Military, all currently rely on ARs to complete their missions, and at all boils down to the same basic result - because they flat work.

 

As for your linked articles, get that trash out if here. I don't have the time or the energy to go over how those articles are out of date and out of touch with reality. One quick example - all 3 talked about the HK 416 being the next über-rifle. News flash - the limited number of 416s that were in service with some very special units have since been pulled from their TOE due to reliability issues. How's that for über? Another touted the XCR as a competitor for the next service weapon. Get real. I have yet to see an XCR get through a 2 day carbine class without puking let alone be reliable enough to bet my life on. The M16 FOW has been putting bad guys in the ground since the 1960s and is carried by the best Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, and Sailors out there - including the guys that are so special they could carry anything they want. Even in countries that don't issue the M16/M4 to their regular troops, their SF contingents carry M16/M4 variants.

 

So what is an acceptable tool for HD in your opinion? (Please God, don't say a .45 and a machete...)

 

Well, since I started this debate let me update everyone....

I picked up an Mp sport model from remixer last week. His price of under 600 was too good to pass up.

Hope I have time to go her out this weekend.

Congrats Gunnz! Good luck with it. Learn all you can about it and don't be afraid to tinker with it.

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I didn't quote you simply because it would start getting really realllly long.

 

I also seem to be missing a paragraph where I was talking about the M16 length and the M4 and length in general blablabla. But no biggy.

 

I understand the designations and yes technically they are all "ARs" but people in the military don't call them that which is why I'm probably being overly sensitive. Maybe LE is different(you sound like you're in LEO). But here's what I'm getting at. He's buying a civvy version under NJ laws. He's stuck with using a fixed stock and no selectable fire which is a huge difference to what LE/MIL use. We simply can't compare the two we can only look at what he CAN buy which is going to have a fixed stock. If I'm in a mout setting I want a shorter weapon. I know many many other guys who feel the same way. It's just easier to come around a corner and handle in general. Is this personal preference? Yeah, but its one I've heard over and over for many years.

 

There is nothing wrong with an AR/M16/M4 whatever you want to call it but the version he is buying unfortunately for me has limitations under the NJ laws.

 

If you must know I prefer a replica "Blade" katana and a bow and arrow for home defense.

 

But seriously I think I would grab for my pistol and/or shotgun first. I don't know, maybe muscle memory would force me I to grabbing my AR and then I'd just be a giant hypocrite (won't be the first time).

 

But good choice on the M&P they ate certainly fun!

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

 

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someone here pointed out what is to me, the make or break factor of the whole build vs buy issue...are you mechanically inclined?  if you're not, then you're never going to feel comfortable deciding on what parts to buy, handling all the parts, or be sure of yourself when putting things together.  for that reason alone i would say buy. 

 

and as others have pointed out, once you handle the rifle, shoot it, disassemble it, clean it, etc. you'll have a much better understanding of how everything goes together and works.  then you can put together a custom rifle with the exact parts you want...and you probably will, because who owns just one AR..?  my 2 cents...

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. If I'm in a mout setting I want a shorter weapon. I know many many other guys who feel the same way. It's just easier to come around a corner and handle in general. Is this personal preference? Yeah, but its one I've heard over and over for many years.

 

 

You keep talking about shorter weapons but dont say shorter than what? 20" barreled AR?  Shotgun?

My 14.5" barreled AR is a little under 33" OAL with the stock pinned in the (I think) 2nd click out.  How much shorter are you talking?  Hell even a M4 will only be about 1/4-3/8" shorter than my AR with the stocks on the same notches.

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alowerlevel, I don't get it either....

 

KWGOOD1980, you do realize that you can pin a stock at any length you wish right? So the point about a shorter length of pull you are alluding to is moot. Even so, I keep my stock 1 click out in armor, 2 clicks out slick even when working tight spaces.

 

Also, you keep referring to not having full auto as if that matters for HD/CQB/FISHing. I don't know anyone who is trained in HR or CQB tactics that thinks FA is the way to go. It is about precision and surgical shots, not "firepower". I have FA capability on 2 issued carbines, as do my colleagues and teammates. We never use it in CQB.

 

You also hint that you feel if an AR doesn't have full auto you are better off with a pistol - as if 5.56x45 is only superior to pistol calibers if full auto is a feature? I am not tracking brother.....

 

Yes, FA has a specific role in certain instances, but lacking that capability it isn't a deal breaker that relegates the AR platform to the bottom of the heap. I would take a semi only AR over a FA pistol or subgun all day long to defend my home or to hunt badguys in theirs.

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