Magazine rebuild kits

[iCARRY 0]

Paul, you are such a tease!!!

[vladtepes 1,060]

 to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm

 

This is the part of the law that I am going to focus on for the moment --  A bag of magazine parts, although still a magazine, is not capable of feeding a semi auto firearm

 

I can easily stick more than 15 .22 rimfire shells into my 7 round .45 acp mag -- so it is capable of holding more than 15 rounds --  it is not capable of feeding those rounds into a firearm -- same as a bag of disassembled parts

 

 

Could you imagine how much money would be spent arguing this in court??

 

again.. you are missing the point.. you don't get to pick and choose parts of the law to follow.. 

 

the magazine parts go together to form a large capacity magazine as defined by NJ law... 

you cant argue that its a fact.. 

so the question remains does taking the mag apart satisfy the law... 

 

I say it does not because the law says non permanent modification does not satisfy the law..

 

if you want to follow JUST the part you are focused on you could load up a 30 round mag... or a 100 round drum.. then.. just put a piece of duct tape over the top of it.. OR even just a magpul mag cover.. the mag at that moment can no longer continuously feed more than 15 rounds... the mag in that state is not a mag because it can't feed a gun? you could have to remove the cover for it to work... so you are safe right?

 

the point is one final time..

the law says

 

a large capacity mag is illegal in every instance

UNLESS

it is permanently modified to no longer be a large capacity magazine..

 

putting tape over the top

putting a magpul cover over the top

disassemble

 

are ALL the same.. they are temporary conditions that do not allow the mag to function..  but have no relevance as to the mags legality.. 

[PK90 3,570]

It can't get any clearer than that.

[Heavyopp 167]

It can't get any clearer than that.

 

I have to agree on that one...

[raz-0 1,259]

Here's the truth. The law is worded poorly. 

 

Neither owners, police, nor the state know what counts on any given day or at any given moment. Even a 15 round factory .40 mag may reliably feed more than 15 orunds of 9mm into a 9mm handgun. Much like every other NJ law about guns, they do not start from the assumption that you are allowed to exercise your 2a rights. They start form the assumption that you do not, and grant exceptions. You are not allowed ot have any magazine unless they meet the exception of being unable to continuously feed 15 rounds or less into a semi automatic firearm. This means you can be busted for ANY magazine of ANY capacity, and be required to present an affirmative defense. 

 

SOme people think that saying you need to tools to alter it is a reasonable defense. Some think that needing tools and spare parts is a reasonable defense. The reality is you are guessing what a judge or jury will see as reasonable. If I were a DA I could argue that anyone in possession of more than one 10 round magazine and a tig welder had constructive intent to fabricate a high capacity magazine. Would the judge or jury buy it? 

 

Not being welded up to a second magazine body is a temporary condition. Not having factory designed dimples milled out is a temporary condition. In fact, given the laws of thermodynamics, everything is a temporary condition. The federal AWB was just as poorly written, and the way to deal with that form the BATFE's point of view was to bless designs. THe bushmaster 10 round magazine could easily be converted to 14-15 rounds. With a coping saw, a drill, and some gorilla glue. After the federal AWB sunset, a lot of folks did just that. You could convert to 16 rounds or more, but you'd need to start fabricating parts. The BATFE declared it permanent. Reality declared it temporary. Unlike federal practice, the state law has no process by which to assure a law abiding buyer that they are actually abiding by the law. Not for a 5 round mag, not 7, not 10, and not 15. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Here's the truth. The law is worded poorly. 

 

Neither owners, police, nor the state know what counts on any given day or at any given moment. Even a 15 round factory .40 mag may reliably feed more than 15 orunds of 9mm into a 9mm handgun. Much like every other NJ law about guns, they do not start from the assumption that you are allowed to exercise your 2a rights. They start form the assumption that you do not, and grant exceptions. You are not allowed ot have any magazine unless they meet the exception of being unable to continuously feed 15 rounds or less into a semi automatic firearm. This means you can be busted for ANY magazine of ANY capacity, and be required to present an affirmative defense. 

 

SOme people think that saying you need to tools to alter it is a reasonable defense. Some think that needing tools and spare parts is a reasonable defense. The reality is you are guessing what a judge or jury will see as reasonable. If I were a DA I could argue that anyone in possession of more than one 10 round magazine and a tig welder had constructive intent to fabricate a high capacity magazine. Would the judge or jury buy it? 

 

Not being welded up to a second magazine body is a temporary condition. Not having factory designed dimples milled out is a temporary condition. In fact, given the laws of thermodynamics, everything is a temporary condition. The federal AWB was just as poorly written, and the way to deal with that form the BATFE's point of view was to bless designs. THe bushmaster 10 round magazine could easily be converted to 14-15 rounds. With a coping saw, a drill, and some gorilla glue. After the federal AWB sunset, a lot of folks did just that. You could convert to 16 rounds or more, but you'd need to start fabricating parts. The BATFE declared it permanent. Reality declared it temporary. Unlike federal practice, the state law has no process by which to assure a law abiding buyer that they are actually abiding by the law. Not for a 5 round mag, not 7, not 10, and not 15. 

 

 

while I agree with you in spirit I strongly disagree in practice... 

[raz-0 1,259]

while I agree with you in spirit I strongly disagree in practice...

Why? I never said magazine rebuild kits are safe. What I said is you will be stuck mounting an affirmative defense.

 

I would not like to mount an affirmative defense on a rivet.

 

But also take a 15 round factory cz mag. Break a follower leg or grind them down and it will hold 16.

 

Your set of rules are probably more defensible, but they still don't make it safe from being screwed with. Gun owners exist in NJ at their peril.

 

That leaves precedent. We know a dowel jammed in the mag doesn't cut it as sarco got jammed up for that. To the best of my knowledge they haven't gone after the riveting dealers. If the law were as clear cut as you claim, it wouldn't have taken until 2007 to go after sarco.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[halbautomatisch 60]

again.. you are missing the point.. you don't get to pick and choose parts of the law to follow.. 

 

the magazine parts go together to form a large capacity magazine as defined by NJ law... 

you cant argue that its a fact.. 

so the question remains does taking the mag apart satisfy the law... 

 

I say it does not because the law says non permanent modification does not satisfy the law..

 

if you want to follow JUST the part you are focused on you could load up a 30 round mag... or a 100 round drum.. then.. just put a piece of duct tape over the top of it.. OR even just a magpul mag cover.. the mag at that moment can no longer continuously feed more than 15 rounds... the mag in that state is not a mag because it can't feed a gun? you could have to remove the cover for it to work... so you are safe right?

 

the point is one final time..

the law says

 

a large capacity mag is illegal in every instance

UNLESS

it is permanently modified to no longer be a large capacity magazine..

 

putting tape over the top

putting a magpul cover over the top

disassemble

 

are ALL the same.. they are temporary conditions that do not allow the mag to function..  but have no relevance as to the mags legality.. 

Where in the actual LAW (as in 2C:) does it say that mags need to be permanently blocked to be no longer considered "large capacity magazines"?

[PK90 3,570]

Where in the actual LAW (as in 2C:) does it say that mags need to be permanently blocked to be no longer considered "large capacity magazines"?

 

It is in the Administrative Code that dealers must abide by.

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine."

[Heavyopp 167]

 permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition 

 

With enough time, nothing is permanently altered

 

 

 to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm

 

It's also interesting how they drop this part when defining permanently altered

 

 

It's definitely not as clear cut as one would like

[vladtepes 1,060]

 permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition 

 

With enough time, nothing is permanently altered

 

 

 to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm

 

It's also interesting how they drop this part when defining permanently altered

 

 

It's definitely not as clear cut as one would like

 

 

if you think about NJ it is really not as confusing as it seems...

 

the wording was never intended to allow you to buy altered mags.. the intention was to ban ALL large cap mags.. in an ideal universe large capacity mags would no longer exist to them..

but they knew people would freak out.. since people already owned large cap mags..

so the reason it addresses that is so it allows people to get compliant with what they had.. and ideally moving forward only buying factory complaint mags..

 

this has not occurred in practice.. as modified mags are common place... but I am pretty confident the intention was to stick with mags that from the manufacturer were compliant.. 

if you look at everything in that mindset... it all becomes far more clear..

 

"large cap mags are banned you cant have them PERIOD"

"if a large cap mag is permanently altered to no longer be a large cap mag then it is no longer a large cap mag and thus legal"

 

the intention is not to stop you from making a 700 round mag out of sheet metal (which if done would obviously still be illegal)

the intention has not much to do with what you MIGHT build...

the intention is instead just to ban large cap mags.. as large capacity mag is defined.. 

[halbautomatisch 60]

It is in the Administrative Code that dealers must abide by.

Right..........and how many people (as in individuals, not licensed companies) have been charged criminally with violating the Administrative Code?

[halbautomatisch 60]

if you think about NJ it is really not as confusing as it seems...

 

the wording was never intended to allow you to buy altered mags.. the intention was to ban ALL large cap mags.. in an ideal universe large capacity mags would no longer exist to them..

but they knew people would freak out.. since people already owned large cap mags..

so the reason it addresses that is so it allows people to get compliant with what they had.. and ideally moving forward only buying factory complaint mags..

 

this has not occurred in practice.. as modified mags are common place... but I am pretty confident the intention was to stick with mags that from the manufacturer were compliant.. 

if you look at everything in that mindset... it all becomes far more clear..

 

"large cap mags are banned you cant have them PERIOD"

"if a large cap mag is permanently altered to no longer be a large cap mag then it is no longer a large cap mag and thus legal"

 

the intention is not to stop you from making a 700 round mag out of sheet metal (which if done would obviously still be illegal)

the intention has not much to do with what you MIGHT build...

the intention is instead just to ban large cap mags.. as large capacity mag is defined.. 

Sure there intent was to ban all "large capacity magazines", however the statute was poorly written and doesn't specify whether or not mags need to be permanently blocked or not. 

 

It's obvious that "they" intended to ban all AK type firearms, but because the statute is poorly written, so MAK 90's and other AK pattern rifles are not banned even though that was their intent.

 

IMO it is legal to possess an unassembled large cap mag "parts kit", but I would not recommend anyone do so because even if it is legal, I wouldn't put it past a prosecutor to charge someone and run them through the mill. Even if you were cleared of all charges, you life will be ruined by the time you are exonerated.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Sure there intent was to ban all "large capacity magazines", however the statute was poorly written and doesn't specify whether or not mags need to be permanently blocked or not. 

 

It's obvious that "they" intended to ban all AK type firearms, but because the statute is poorly written, so MAK 90's and other AK pattern rifles are not banned even though that was their intent.

 

IMO it is legal to possess an unassembled large cap mag "parts kit", but I would not recommend anyone do so because even if it is legal, I wouldn't put it past a prosecutor to charge someone and run them through the mill. Even if you were cleared of all charges, you life will be ruined by the time you are exonerated.

 

how do you know AK type guns are NOT banned... see thats just the thing... its like the whole M1 carbine thing... dealers sold a variant in NJ.. the gov looked into it and all of the sudden made those guns get returned... and there was NO evil feature issue.. 

 

and if your argument is accurate... buy a bunch of 30 round AR mags... load them up... and then put mag covers on them or even just a piece of tape...would that be legal?

there is NO difference.. and I guarantee you go to jail.. magazines come apart for cleaning.. simply taking the follower out of a 100 round drum does not make it legal... 

 

your assertion that a magazine is not a magazine when it is disassembled is not an accurate one... it is still a magazine.... 

[vladtepes 1,060]

this is what you get under 2c

 

y. "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm.

 

this makes 15 round 40 S&W Glock magazines illegal.... because it has the capability of feeding more than 15 rounds of 9mm.. you may not put 9mm in it.. but it still has that capability.. 

it also makes a magazine kit illegal.. because that is capable of holding more than 15 rounds to be fed... in the sense that the word capable does not mean ready it means having the potential... there is nothing stopping the mag from being put back together and used as a large cap mag.. so in the literal definition... it is certainly capable.. since it merely has the potential.. and that is all that is required by law to be illegal.. 

 

 

 

ca•pa•bil•i•ty (ˌkeɪ pəˈbɪl ɪ ti) 

n., pl. -ties.

1. the quality of being capable; capacity; ability.

2. the ability to undergo or be affected by a given treatment or action.

3. Usu., capabilities. qualities, abilities, features, etc., that can be used or developed; potential.

[PK90 3,570]

I believe that the "temporary/permanent" thing came about because people were just sticking blocks in magazines and someone questioned the legality. The NJ Attorney General (NJAG) issued a directive to dealers stating that a "temporary" block was okay to comply with the law. Great!

 

Then another NJAG re-examined this and declared that magazines needed to be "permanently altered". They issued another directive contradicting the first. Nothing had changed, just another person's opinion.

 

Can someone find the first directive? Pizza Bob?

[mipafox 438]

Ship all that crap to my house. My UPS and Fedex guys both started wearing weight belts a few years ago anyway. I cut a plywood shape to cover my big dining room table for people that are going to work with mags and metal stuff and I have folding tables if it gets busy. For whatever Jersey people do with their stuff, as long as it doesn't involve taking off your pants or any weird stuff.

 

I'll make coffee and Taylor Ham and egg sandwiches.

[Heavyopp 167]

 

your assertion that a magazine is not a magazine when it is disassembled is not an accurate one... it is still a magazine.... 

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing this part --  It is still a magazine -- but it does fail to feed ammunition at this point -- One could certainly argue that it does not fit the large cap mag description

 

It's a far cry from having a loaded, complete, functioning magazine with a piece of tape on it or a dust cap --  You have an assembled magazine with something added to it to stop it's feeding abilities, temporarily

 

Disassembled must be assembled 1st -- nowhere in the law does it say how long it must take --  In it's disassembled state it will in no way feed ammunition

 

I would bet you would win in court but it's not a bet I am willing to take

[PK90 3,570]

In that case, I can cut the barrel of my SxS Shotgun to 14", then disassemble it. Kewl.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Capability is not an immediate state... Capacity implies something simply has the potential... A disassembled mag still has the potential to do that...

 

And there is NO legal difference between the following..

 

A disassembled 30 round mag

A fully loaded mag with duct tape over it...

 

Neither in their present state have the ability to work

Yet they both posess the potential do do so...

They are identical by the simple wording of the law...

 

The admin code at least sheds a little more light on the stance of the state... And their stance is what has been said a thousand times over... A large capacity mag is only allowed if it is no longer a large capacity mag...

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

.

[Heavyopp 167]

In that case, I can cut the barrel of my SxS Shotgun to 14", then disassemble it. Kewl.

 

I'm not sure what it says for a sawed off shotgun but in the case of an assault rifle the statute specifically states having the parts on hand to assemble an assault rifle constitutes an assault rifle -- does not say that for a magazine

[PK90 3,570]

Does not say that for a shotgun. That was my point.

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk

 

 

[petros600 12]

I think PK90 and  Vladtepes should start charging a consultation fees for the advises they provide to our members here.

[Heavyopp 167]

Does not say that for a shotgun. That was my point.

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk

 

Say I took that sawed off shotgun,  pulled and disposed of the firing pins, and hung it over the fireplace as a piece of art

 

Non functioning, hunk of wood and steel artwork  --   Legal or Not??? -- in your opinion of course

[PK90 3,570]

Not

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk

 

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Say I took that sawed off shotgun,  pulled and disposed of the firing pins, and hung it over the fireplace as a piece of art

 

Non functioning, hunk of wood and steel artwork  --   Legal or Not??? -- in your opinion of course

 

to jail you would go... 

 

 

 

n. "Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition.

 

o. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

a sawed off shotgun with no firing pin was still a shotgun at one time by definition...

definition states that a sawed off shotgun is any shotgun with too short of a barrel OR overall length.. 

this refers us back to shotgun definition.. 

 

the ONLY way around that would MAYBE be to deactivate the firearm.. and I am not familiar with that law... deactivating a firearm to my knowledge involves some pretty absurd steps.. that (to no surprise) renders the gun permanently inoperable.. permanently within reason.. like concrete down the barrel (or something ridiculous like that)... 

[Heavyopp 167]

 

 

the ONLY way around that would MAYBE be to deactivate the firearm.. and I am not familiar with that law... deactivating a firearm to my knowledge involves some pretty absurd steps.. that (to no surprise) renders the gun permanently inoperable.. permanently within reason.. like concrete down the barrel (or something ridiculous like that)... 

 

I think I've read before, a milled slot in a reciever destroying the mounting points of the internals, like on a dummy 30 cal machine gun kit

 

 

Was just a question...