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NJ2AS CARRY LICENSE APPLICATION SUBMISSION PROJECT (CLASP)

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is there any place that has more info as to what the actual end goal is here.  its asking a lot for everyone to volunteer to get denied and have to submit that on future applications without giving us an idea of the end goal or plan to get to that goal.  not that im trying to be a scrooge, i just would like to know what it is we are working to accomplish here

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The amounts of denials that will ensue will be grounds to sue the state proving we are essentially a "NO ISSUE" state rather then a "MAY ISSUE" state that we claim to be....  

 

Exactly!  The state maintains that it is currently approving more than 95% of applications (because most of us don't bother to apply), so there is no problem.  We hope to expose that narrative for the fraud that it is, as 67gtonut explains.

 

I believe it is important that EVERYONE on this board get involved with this project.  This is a rare opportunity to fight for one of the rights that has been taken from us.  Most of our political and legislative efforts have been to slow the creep of ever more restrictive anti-gun legislation, as the noose tightens further around us.   The worst that can happen is that you will be required to state on future applications that the state deemed that you did not have justified need (or that the state did not feel that your life is worth defending, if you would like to express it a bit more harshly).

 

If anyone would like more information about this plan, I would suggest reading through this thread:

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/62769-nj-ccw-question/

 

From that same thread, I really like this explanation of "justifiable need" provided by CMJeepster:

 

"Since the decision in Warren v. District of Columbia (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) holds that police do not have a duty to provide police services to individuals, I choose to exercise my inherent human right of self-defense by keeping and bearing arms as guaranteed to me by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and confirmed by District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)."

 

Mods, can we put this thread someplace where it has greater visibility?  We need as many people involved with this as possible.

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After denial. we have to check that we have been denied for every permit app. will this affect our ability to get more permits after being denied?

 

I asked Albert Almeida, who is the guy who was on GFH radio a few weeks ago talking about his denial. He basically owns apartments in Newark and one of the tenants threatened him so he applied for a carry permit and was denied by his PD. He had no problems applying for more pistol purchase permits.

 

I am going to apply once I complete the qualification. I already took NRA basic and I'm going to see what else the state requires.

 

As for justifiable need I'm going to write a book. I'm going to cite the Heller decision and also cite a number of shootings and other violent crime. I'm also going to cite where off duty LEOs were successful in defending themselves. I'm going to cite that I have carry permits in other states and they trust me to carry. I'm going all in. No reason to just sit back. 

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I asked Albert Almeida, who is the guy who was on GFH radio a few weeks ago talking about his denial. He basically owns apartments in Newark and one of the tenants threatened him so he applied for a carry permit and was denied by his PD. He had no problems applying for more pistol purchase permits.

 

I am going to apply once I complete the qualification. I already took NRA basic and I'm going to see what else the state requires.

 

As for justifiable need I'm going to write a book. I'm going to cite the Heller decision and also cite a number of shootings and other violent crime. I'm also going to cite where off duty LEOs were successful in defending themselves. I'm going to cite that I have carry permits in other states and they trust me to carry. I'm going all in. No reason to just sit back.

Nice!

 

 

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I'm not sure I see the positive outcome either.

It's already been said that nj doesn't accept "it's my constitutional right" as justifiable need.

I would tend to think most here don't have issues and want to carry as a result of their 2a rights which I agree with. I just don't see the + outcome you guys see out of this.

I'll get the forms and fill them out though.

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The plus side here is that we all become a statistic of denial, and the approval rate plummets. They cite the 94% approval rate as a reason to leave the current system in place. If that number fell to say, 0.5% there is a higher chance of change happening. I'm all in for this as I plan on moving out of NJ in the next few years anyway. If I'm asked why I was denied I'll just refer to "those commies in Jersey"

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I'm not sure I see the positive outcome either.

 

It's already been said that nj doesn't accept "it's my constitutional right" as justifiable need.

 

I would tend to think most here don't have issues and want to carry as a result of their 2a rights which I agree with. I just don't see the + outcome you guys see out of this.

 

I'll get the forms and fill them out though.

It may not work, but at least we are doing SOMETHING. I'm glad to see we are finally moving to an offense strategy instead of defensive. Until I come across a better idea, I'm all for this one.

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Ryan please pm me when you come up with a thorough justifiable need. I'd like something to base mine off of. I'm checking to see which courses I have to take as well. I'm signed up and committed to seeing this through till the end.

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With all of the easier laws to challenge why CCW. The State even admits that it takes a deficit for pistol permits and that they are antiquated. The AWB, the one gun a month. Isn't there easier ways to flex muscles than CCW? Wouldn't the resources be better off spent elsewhere?

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I am of that opinion as well, but when you look at the gains in 2A rights that have been made in the last 20 years, especially in terms of court victories (illinois),  and likely SCOTUS cases in the near future, CCW reform seems to be a higher probablility of success, even in NJ.  Which message works better? The fact that 40+ states have CCW readily obtainable either thru no permitting or a relatively painless (compared to NJ) permitting process, and they have NOT seen a bloodbath, and are examples to point to, or  the SCARY guns libs hate? As far as the OGAM & P2P reform, that well has been poisoned by Sweeney's vetoed bill that would force a renewal requirement & tie to NJDL. "fixing' that wil result in a net loss, IMHO

 

 

With all of the easier laws to challenge why CCW. The State even admits that it takes a deficit for pistol permits and that they are antiquated. The AWB, the one gun a month. Isn't there easier ways to flex muscles than CCW? Wouldn't the resources be better off spent elsewhere?

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What are people putting for reason?

 

"Each person applying for a Permit to Carry and Handgun must supply a letter of need, specific in content, as to why they have a need to carry a firearm in the State of New Jersey. If this application is employment-related, then your employer must supply this letter. List the reason for this application:"

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Gura was granted an extension to file with SCOTUS on Drake v. Filko (or whatever it's called now). That should be in their hands in January and in committee this winter to decide if they'll hear the appeal. The NJ state high court is going to hear the carry case argued by Nappan. Does anyone know if CLASP is an effort independent of these?

Let's say 50 people actually go through with CLASP and we have 50 bonified denied applications. Short of a Federal judge telling NJ to supply stats for 2014, (court of appeals made that request last year) what makes anyone think that can happen again? Let's say we get our stats and approval percentages drop to 80%. Then what?

I'm trying to see the upside for this just like everyone else.

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To answer the question of training required:  This is the law:

 

13:54-2.4 Application for a permit to carry a handgun

(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns may be evidenced by:

1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
3. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
4. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor. © Where available, the information in (b) above shall beaccompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s). In the absence of, or in addition to (b)1 through 4 above, the applicant shall provide any other available
and accurate information which may evidence his or her proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms, including most recent handgun qualification scores and whether he or she utilized the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry, courses attended in the safe handling and use of firearms, and extent of knowledge, however gained, of this State's laws pertaining to the use of force in the defense of person and property.

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For the record, there is no 'space provided therefor on the application form' for the applicant to indicate relevant information to 'demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns' on form SP-642 - Application For Permit To Carry A Handgun.

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To answer the question of training required: This is the law:

 

13:54-2.4 Application for a permit to carry a handgun

 

...

 

 

Ok so where to get those? I have NRA first steps, 3 other state CCWs and IDPA classification. But no "test scores" etc.

 

 

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Ok so where to get those? I have NRA first steps, 3 other state CCWs and IDPA classification. But no "test scores" etc.

 

I too have a NRA first steps certificate, does this satisfy the NJ requirement for the CCW permit?  It worked for FL.  As did my hunting license.

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There is no "state appeals court".  That decision was rendered by an intermediate appellate court for Essex county. The Pantano case will be heard by the NJ Supreme Court (and we will lose there as well).

 

I'm amazed that people don't see the benefit of doing this.  Lack of CCW is the number 1 problem with NJ gun laws.  Yes the permit process and delay is annoying, but we can still buy firearms.  Yes the AWB is annoying but we can still buy AR-15s even if they don't have flash hiders or collapsible stock.  The inability to obtain a CCW completely forecloses the possibility of armed defense outside the home AND exposes everyone transporting a handgun to a possible 7 year prison sentence at the whim of the local PD and judge (see, for reference, the case of Brian Aitken).  So yes, CCW is far and away the number 1 problem in NJ.

 

As for what will be accomplished, if enough people apply state - wide this WILL get the attention of the State Police, possibly the state AG, and just maybe the Governor and certain assembly people.  It just MIGHT give the governor cover if he ever were inclined to relax the justifiable need requirement through administrative action (which I believe he could do).  It just MIGHT be useful in briefing if the Drake case makes it to Scotus.  It just MIGHT be one additional pressure point if a federal carry reciprocity bill is passed; such a bill would most certainly cause our legislators to get their collective panties in a twist and just maybe someone would stand up and point out how ridiculous it is for out of staters but not qualified in state residents to carry.

 

As things stand now, the state of NJ STILL has gun owners running scared and thankful for whatever crumbs they are tossed.  Widespread CCW applications will send the message that people are no longer taking this crap lying down.

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You have a point but not with Brian Aitken. I will never believe his bs story. What about the illegal mags? If he was moving from one placd in NJ to another, he has no reason to have over 15 rounders.

 

It's not about the crumbs. In the end, it's the effort. I'd the outcome, worth the effort. At least in my opinion. The outcome will be a denial. So is it worth my effort.

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I don’t want to discourage anyone from participating and at the risk of sounding skeptical unless there is a clear cut strategy in play here (that is not being revealed) I don’t see how ultimately ending up with a denial will be a useful outcome. In my view the state is big on past practices and precedents so unless the law and/or existing ccw policy has changed I’m on the sidelines for this one unless new information comes to light.

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/62769-nj-ccw-question/page-2#entry802012

 

Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:21 PM

I'm honestly starting to think you should do it. Waiting for the right time is obviously BS at this point, it's not coming. Somebody just has to get started and then try to get more people on board.

 

We should be doing everything we can to bring attention to this nonsense. If lots of people start applying, it may not change the ruling of a court, but it will change the way people look at the issue. Right now it's a constituency of zero on paper.

 

Further, with nobody applying, nobody is running into interesting little quirks or unconstitutional unfortunate statements and admissions by the legal system that might be actionable. Or damages after being denied, for that matter. With nobody applying very few have standing. One of you guys could hit the discrimination jackpot.

 

Heck, there might be a judge that finally decides this is BS and starts issuing, causing a constitutional crisis or conflict of court rulings.

 

The only thing for sure is nothing will change if nothing changes. And every hope we have hung our hats on has failed. It's been run nearly to completion. What now, wait for more Obama appointed federal judges and whatever nonsense he does on his way out? I think the time is now.

 

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/62769-nj-ccw-question/page-4#entry807016

 

Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:18 PM

I humbly agree. Someone may find standing and/or evidence of additional Constitutional violations that somebody like Gura can use.

 

Keep a copy of everything, take notes, record if you think it is legal and advisable (I don't know).

 

Just don't stick cameras in peoples' faces and act like a d-bag.

 

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/62769-nj-ccw-question/page-6#entry812249

 

Posted 30 November 2013 - 09:03 PM

Obama appointed 40 federal judges on the day the Senate changed the rules for confirming appointments. We have never been stronger than we are today, EVER, and have never been weaker than we will be tomorrow.

 

There is no waiting.

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I will add that the claim that the process is fair and justified and 99.9% of applications are approved (or whatever nonsense) needs to be shoved up the asses of the media with copies of denials as a contrast and the quick point that with 40+ states being shall issue, only 3 really don't issue. And it's never caused a problem anywhere, except in NJ where you and your family are free to be killed at any time.

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The fact that 40+ states have CCW readily obtainable either thru no permitting or a relatively painless (compared to NJ) permitting process, and they have NOT seen a bloodbath, and are examples to point to...

I think it is important to note that although 40+ are shall issue by statute, 47 are really shall issue in practice.

 

There are only 3 that are no issue in practice. I think that is a short and important point to communicate to the media and the ignorant sheep.

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NJ2AS - a couple constructive criticisms.

 

"REGISTRATION PLEDGE - Free

I voluntarily pledge to the other participants of Project CLASP that I intend to fulfill the requirements for, and submit an application to apply for a license to carry a firearm in the state of New Jersey."

 

That's Pennsylvania. In NJ it's a "Permit to Carry a Handgun." What you wrote actually sounds a little closer to an NJ FPID for rifles.

 

Also, the flag is backwards on your eagle. The starfield is supposed to face forward as if you were running with the flag on a staff into battle with the stripes trailing behind. It's just a simple flag etiquette thing, I didn't come up with it.

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I do see some upside for this. Christie is going to seek the nomination to be lead RINO for president. 2A is a major issue in the free states. So the pressure of mass denials of CCW permits would have on his chances of getting the nomination might cause him to act on our behalf.

However this thing should have been done years ago before the last challenge to the justifible need hit the courts. That factored with the case where we used a BB gun as our lead example makes me question putting my faith and spotless record in the hands of this group of people. I do not have faith in them on thinking things out.

So I must ask myself what is the downside to doing this ? Is explaining for the rest of my life to the Govt why I was denied every time I ask for a permit or do a background check the worst of it? Or is there more. Can this denial be used against me in civil or family court.  Will it effect my security clearence ?

Remember you are on your own

 

"The NJ2AS makes absolutely NO PREDICTIONS, PROMISES, or GUARANTEES of any kind nor do we predict, promise or guarantee any specific results whatsoever. We accept NO liability for any problems, costs, or any repercussion associated with your application submission whatsoever. By participating in the project, you are agreeing to accept any potential consequences known or unknown upon yourself. You should do your own research if you are concerned about how applying for a carry license may or may not affect you before you submit. We will not advise you on whether or not to proceed. It is your individual decision."
 

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With all of the easier laws to challenge why CCW. The State even admits that it takes a deficit for pistol permits and that they are antiquated. The AWB, the one gun a month. Isn't there easier ways to flex muscles than CCW? Wouldn't the resources be better off spent elsewhere?

 

This isn't a zero sum game dude.  We can multi-task.  The reason CCW is chosen is that is the most practical application of the RKBA.  We have the RK, now we need the BA.  The other details can get hashed out later.

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With all of the easier laws to challenge why CCW. The State even admits that it takes a deficit for pistol permits and that they are antiquated. The AWB, the one gun a month. Isn't there easier ways to flex muscles than CCW? Wouldn't the resources be better off spent elsewhere?

My feeling is if we win the CCW battle, we effectively win everything else.

 

 

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