Time to start a new gun group in NJ???

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

Well said. Hopefully this puts to bed the "mole" and saboteur theories. I have been a dues paying member since the beginning and wish the group success but would like to see a change at the top too. Perhaps Frank's duties need to be divided and another position created. I don't think all of his tirades can be blamed on overwork though.

 

Guys and gals

 

I am an original founding board member of the nj2as. I like most of the board put everything aside to make the nj2as a success and not turn into just another group saying that they wanted to do something but never did. I probably know more than anybody what frank has gone through and the sacrifices he has made to lead the nj2as. No one in this world is perfect. No body. Every org ionization in the world will have people that join that disagree with what the group is doing or the direction they are moving. Front the beginning the nj2as board made it clear what our goals were going to be. We would start small (OEC) and climb the ladder from there. I personally think the board and all the members and volunteers have done a hell of a job so far with OEC. I got pistol permits this week from toms river who used to have extra paper work but thanks to our group no longer does. We said we would start attacking the smaller issues because we did have groups like the ANJRPC fighting the bigger battles. We put this all out there and the majority of the group/members agreed that it made sense. Every penny that comes into this organization is either put towards lawyers, pamphlets, meetings or whatever else is needed. No one gets a paycheck and no one ever expects too. I need everyone here to sit back and think about what has gone on the last few days. Really think about it. Should have it went down like that? Of course not, but it did. We all have to swallow our pride and move forward. The NJ2AS is not going anywhere. If anyone wants to distance themselves to start a new group to attack other angles we are all for that. We have always said that. If you don't agree with what we stand for or what our immediate plans are than you need to basically agree to disagree. We are already so far behind in our second amendment rights it is sickening. As for putting someone else at the top that could and may happen one day but not now in my book. I am behind frank 100%. We need to be. It's like a marriage so far. For better or worse. Don't give up now guys. That's all I ask.

 

Ps. I write this from North Carolina as I flew Down here for business today. If we stick together and can make nj like nc it will be a miracle!

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1LtCAP 4,262]

I am posting my story only.  I am not speaking for anyone nor any group.

 

I am an NJ2AS member. 

I have volunteered for NJ2AS functions.

I was at and spoke before every committee meeting this past year.

I was at and spoke at many community meetings re: 2A last year.

I have donated $ to various NJ2AS requests for projects.

At the suggestion of NJ2AS, I ran for office last year.

At every shooting event I was at, I let people know about the candidates from all districts.

I was a member of the "Twitter Army" or whatever for NJ2AS.

I appreciate the work that NJ2AS has done (Project compliance, the buses to the state house, etc)

 

I have the following concerns (brief summary)

Frank's attitude towards members of NJ2AS

Lack of direction, planning and follow through of NJ2AS Leadership Committee projects

 

 

Background complete, here is my story.

 

NJ2AS suggested to members we become candidates.  I took the bull by the horns and did so.  Whenever I asked for guidance or help in the process, I received little to none.  I was told to go through the motions, figure it out, share my experiences and give them a report, so the next batch of candidates could have success.  This was my first inkling that the board did not make plans, that they got ideas and went forward.

 

I got my ass handed to me, but I did my part.

 

At some point in time later, it was suggested that we all go out and get the paperwork for CCW.  Then, when the time was ripe, we strike!  But again, nothing came of that project.

 

I had several interactions with Frank in person, and made several suggestions.  Each was met with "oh yeah, we were already going to do that."  Possible, but not likely.  If anyone has video from the first demonstration, at some point in time, Frank makes mention of all the females that were present.  Back up 1 minute.  You will see me talking to Frank.  I suggested he mention the women present, and was told "I was already going to do that"  1 minute later, he makes the comment.  Something similar happened at a different meeting and another item re: procedural stuff had the same outcome.  Now either Frank and I are on the exact same wavelength, or I was being dismissed and my idea used.  To be clear, I was not looking for him to give me credit, but "That's a good idea" is much better than "Oh yeah, I was already going to do that", which seems like a stretch that all 3 times we spoke, it happened.

 

So these things, put me in a position of removing myself from NJ2AS FB page, 6 months ago.  Still an active member, but not so motivated.

 

About 2 months ago, I posted something, not really sure, on a FB page (not NJ2AS) and Frank immediately and angrily and publicly attacked me, my involvement, cursed me out, etc.  First reaction.  No discussion, nothing rational, just an attack.

 

I asked him to call my cell, so we could talk.  He called my cell, cursed me out, minimized my participation, compared which one of us has done more (he has, no doubt, but what does that matter?).  He then hung up on me.

 

I managed to get a phone call in with him where I was allowed to speak.  I brought up my concerns and his response was something along these lines: "Oh you are one of those people who needs everything handed to you on a silver platter.  You have accomplished nothing in life and never will."  So by asking the organization that suggested I run for office for some guidance, I am looking for everything on a silver platter?  I won't go into life accomplishments, that is silly.

 

Sweet.

 

So I still stayed a member, and was even less likely to be engaged.

 

Fast forward to this past week and I became aware of a page called "Banned by NJ2A$$hole" which I immediately knew who they were talking about.  Let's be perfectly clear on this.  The page is NOT anti NJ2AS.  It specifically attracted me because of the target of the ire expressed there.  No one on that page is anti 2A, anti NJ2AS as an organization or is looking to splinter nor bring down NJ2AS.  I am confident that ALL of us want a better, stronger NJ2AS.  We just feel the group and position have outgrown Frank.

 

 

Again, to be perfectly clear, I don't know nor do I care about the story behind Ron and Frank.  I really could not care less, beyond the point that another member was diminished and attacked by our president for putting forth a dissenting opinion, as I was.  As the group grew and conversations flew, it became clear that a good number of people have been on the receiving end of this.  And to a person it appears that the attacks were based solely on disagreeing with an idea or thought put forth by NJ2AS.

 

I have been kicked off the Twitter Army, because if you don't agree with Frank, you don't agree with NJ2AS and are trying to fracture the group.  And as a punishment for trying to fracture the group, the NJ2AS has decided to fracture the group.  Sound logic, huh?

 

I emailed with Frank and expressed my concerns with his actions.  His replies all centered around NJ2AS and how little I have accomplished, blah blah.  But the most telling thing about these interactions is that it is clear to me that Frank believes he IS NJ2AS.  He is not.  He has put in the most work.  It is the organization he founded.  But the members are NJ2AS.  It is clear that the group is his private fiefdom.

 

I made the wall of shame, Anthony Mills!

 

So long story short, I was heavily involved, grew weary of the directionless actions of the executive committee and was attacked by the president multiple times.  My response was to pull back from my involvement, and join a FB group of like minded people.

 

For that, I am vilified.  OK.  Sounds good.

 

I am moving to PA.  I will still be a member of NJ2AS and send in my $.  I care deeply about all of our rights.  I want success in NJ.  If I can help, I will.  But I will not be cursed at, insulted and diminished for simply putting forth a differing opinion by a man who leads a group that is supposed to care about all our rights.

 

Flame away.

i was already on the fence as to whether or not i was gonna renew due to harvey elder, and that stupid chit he put up. then all this crap came along, and has me falling on the non-renewal side. now hearing how hard you worked, only to be dismissed like a rodent......that's got me just about off the fence. i'll join other groups that respect their members.

[brocglock23 4]

Millisan 1 said: NJ2AS suggested to members we become candidates.  I took the bull by the horns and did so.  Whenever I asked for guidance or help in the process, I received little to none.  I was told to go through the motions, figure it out, share my experiences and give them a report, so the next batch of candidates could have success.  This was my first inkling that the board did not make plans, that they got ideas and went forward.

 

So if Millsan was encourage to run for a political office by the NJ2AS why wouldn't he expect some guidance along the way. Shane, your post seems to be the same issue people have with Frank. Kinda ballsy to comment like that to a fellow member who is trying his best in the 2A fight and taking a suggestion that NJ2AS shared with him to run for political office. Just my opinion but this doesn't seem like a good way to get and/or keep members. Also sounds like you are encouraging people to reach for the brass rings while you guys are busting their balls because they reach them without a stool.

 

 

Millsan, your post is the poster child of what I'm talking about. If you need your hand held to lead your project, your not the guy! Plain and simple. I absolutely, without a doubt, will bet the farm on the fact that every idea you gave has been given 20 times over at a minimum.

It startles me how easy people must think these endeavors are. I fully admit I am not up to speed on any current NJ2AS internal activity as I took a leave of abscence about a year ago. ANd I have no clue what the current nonsence is about. But as a founding board member, I obviously still carry the torch.

But some of you seem to be dying to fan the flames like a bunch of kids sitting on the sidelines yelling fight, fight, fight to egg on the two kids in the center that may never have fought at all. Its pathetic!

Do any of you realise that Anthony is/was PART OF THE NJ2AS leadership? As in a member of the board? Trust me all these people have each others cell on speed dial. So in my humble opinion, intervention is not needed by anyone outside the circle. Frankly you should all just leave them alone and let people cool off!

[millsan1 3]

Millsan, your post is the poster child of what I'm talking about. If you need your hand held to lead your project, your not the guy! Plain and simple.

 

 

I absolutely, without a doubt, will bet the farm on the fact that every idea you gave has been given 20 times over at a minimum.

 

 

 

Two points:

 

1 - Yes, you are right.  If one is not ready to lead a project, you are not the guy.  I totally agree.  This wasn't my project.  This was the NJ2AS project.  I was a volunteer.  When I say I asked for help, I am talking about the basics.  What forms to fill out, etc.  Not deep planning for a successful campaign.

 

I put forth this analogy:

NJ2AS - We are building a house and need volunteers.

Me- I'll help

 

Next day, I show up with my hammer and saw and toolbelt.

 

NJ2AS - OK where are the architectural drawings and permits?

Me- um........

 

2 - So you are saying that Frank was giving a speech, I noticed he had not mentioned women, I suggest he mention women, he tells me "yeah, I was going to do that" and that this had been gone over 20 times in a meeting? 

 

We were at another meeting and I mention to Frank that when we go to the rally, we shouldn't wear camo and such, and he says "yeah, I as just gonna mention that" is another item that had been gone over 20 times?

 

I think you owe me a farm.

[millsan1 3]

The CCW thing was being planned but some people were not happy waiting for the go ahead and kept pressuring so Frank finally said go ahead, but since your not letting us totally figure this out then we take no responsibility. I do believe some of them have begun the process.

 

Again, makes my point.  The project was being planned, but the first steps had been released.  Which makes it no plan.

 

NJ2AS had an IDEA.  They had not yet made a plan, had an end goal, established milestones nor had a concrete path to success, but they told members to go out and start.

 

Analogy:

 

Dad: Hey kids, lets all go out and get ice cream!

Kids: Yeah! and they pile into the car.

 

Dad sits in the house and starts trying to figure out if there are any ice cream stands open, if the cars is running, if he has the money for ice cream and if ice cream is really what he wants his family to have.

 

Kids get anxious and pester dad.  Dad says "FINE!  GO GET ICE CREAM YOURSELF!  Don't you have any patience?"

[jonfoxx 4]

Wow.  My renewal date is January 16.  What shall I do?  Who do I believe?  While I've not always agreed with everything NJ2AS has done or proposed, its just sad to see all of this develop like it has... I REALLY belived in the cause and the organizations intentions. 

 

HOWEVER, seeing how most of this has all played out through Facebook, and I am anti-Facebook and believe it is a social CANCER, it sure makes sense WHY it is happening.

 

A few facts in considering my renewal.

 

1.  NJ2AS has its own website.

2.  NJ2AS has my email from my membership.

3.  NJ2AS has its own section on this forum.

4.  NJ2AS has a Facebook account (and now anti-NJ2AS accounts)

 

1b.  NJ2AS has not posted any kind of statment regarding all of this BS on their website.

2b.  NJ2AS has not sent an email statement regarding all of this BS to my email.

3b.  NJ2AS has not posted a statement in their very own section of this forum.

4b.  NJ2AS has way too much BS going on over on the ol' Facebook.

 

I guess that I'll see what happens overnight, I'm sure there will be another 4-5 pages to read in the morning.  But I sure wish something was sent directly to the members and not have everyone else trying to inform everyone...

[Shane45 807]

Pehaps I misunderstood your post regarding your project. I took you to mean you were leading a project, not a participant. If that is the case, I appologise for my misconception. It sounds like the project leader was "not the guy".

 

On point 2, definitly, no farm needed. I can tell you that these two topics SPECIFICALLY have been covered years ago. Looks to me that it is his polite way of acknowledging you. But when you get up in front of all those people, its not always easy to remember your speach. But there is not a lot of value debating point by point.

 

Ultimately, however, all this public derision and fanning of the flames will not be good for anything.

[Shane45 807]

"I am anti-Facebook and believe it is a social CANCER"

 

I absolutely believe this to be true!!!! I have seen so many family and friend clashes over facebook, workplace issues, misuse etc etc. Yet all of them keep asking me to join and look at me perplexed when I say not no but F NO!

[intercooler 41]

I will help anyone who wants to run for office.  I am an elected official...JUST re-elected official. Although I am a republican, I will help anyone who asks. PM me and I will help you lay out what you need to do and a path to do it.

[A-Tech 8]

Bull$hit  NJ2AS had NOTHING..I say again typed slowly and in CRAYON So nobody can Misunderstand... NJ2AS, the Leadership Committee. ANY of the Officers, and ESPECIALLY Frank Fiamingo had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING To do with that "Shame Wall" Nonsense.

 

That isn't what I was referring to. I am speaking of his direct responses on Facebook threads long before this whole thing went down. I am speaking of the same things that actually CAUSED Ron's group to start up. 

[matty 810]

Facebook is GAY

[millsan1 3]

What to do, some ask. From my standpoint, I say renew and support. I will. But work with NJ2AS to make the whole better, which I will not. I certainly won't work against but I will not be putting in anywhere near the effort I have in the past.

 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Wojo 98]

Good Luck to the Executive / Leadership Board with their meeting tonight.

 

Just some final thoughts to please keep in mind when the water gets muddy and temper flare.

 

Name calling and belittling people is never a good leadership virtue. The guy needs a class in public relations. There ought to be District Leaders so he isn't mired down with the mentally draining interactions with the drones out there.

 

I wish you luck, but I don't think this old dog is going to change. It is HIS site, HIS page and HIS group. If anyone should question that, even with the best intentions, they are automatically seen as the enemy. The man has issues.

 

Again, the majority of people on Ron's wall are very dedicated to the cause and are, or were, supports of NJ2AS. Most of us have issues with Frank's behavior, NOT the members of the group. Many are disappointed from what appears that the leadership committee is ineffective at reeling Frank in or having any type of input on this crisis. The discord is not the mission, but with the man.

 

Have fun storming the castle -

Scott Watkowski

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I think tonight's meeting will make or break the organization.

[bignic83 0]

I hope it is not already broken.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Nah, if the leadership can pull this together with or without frank it'll show they are strong. If they can it's already over.

[kwadz 11]

My wife has been bugging me to renew her NJ2AS membership and I keep forgetting to do so.  Now would be a good time to offset some of the cancelations.  Also, I'll probably enroll both of my kids as members, too, just to keep the membership strong. 

 

That being said, I have no ill will towards those of you who disagree with Frank and choose to leave, as long as you put your money, time, and efforts towards another group that has 2A freedom as its goal.  I think multiple groups attacking the same laws actually strengthens our fight and intimidates the opposition more than having only a single opponent.  Best of luck and by NO means "good riddance".  Maybe our organizations can appoint "diplomats" who will meet with each other on a regular basis just to keep each group informed about the other groups' projects. 

[Wojo 98]

Tom - Can you find out why the establishment of By-Laws have been postponed, delayed and ignored for over two years?

 

Would it be because Executives would have to be named?

There would be a succession process in place?

He would have to have a balance of power?

There would be a conflict resolution process?

 

No By-Laws for an volunteer organization such as this is highly suspicious.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

I will let bob ring in about by laws because I have been out of the loop. There is nothing suspicious in this group. We can't please everyone and I understand that. But I also know that there will always be a select few who disagree and question everything the group does. It's like that everywhere. Hopefully bob can chime in on the Bylaws for you

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Auto5 0]

.... Every penny that comes into this organization is either put towards lawyers, pamphlets, meetings or whatever else is needed .....

 

Just so you know, this is something that my friends and I have been thinking about.

 

While I don't know how much money is coming in, I have trouble seeing where large amounts of money are going out to.

 

I'm nobody. I don't have time to volunteer these present years. My business. But, I like to do at least the minimum .... which is paying for membership and making additional small contributions. (In addition to letters and phone calls to our elected officials [Visits to their offices in past years])

 

I don't like a couple of the things I've seen in past months, but I still want to help. And, I know there's great people in NJ2AS. However, sometimes I ..... and others I know .... wonder if our money would be better spent elsewhere. Such as to ANJRPC's LSP fund. FF makes me wonder.

 

Good shooting.

[BD104X 1]

I kind of understand what some on here are saying about NJ2AS. I don't believe there is anything shady going on, but I let my original membership run out because all I ever saw was emails asking for volunteers. A few months ago I attended a meeting since it was near my home and I felt that they do more than it initially seemed so I renewed. Although I feel its 35 bucks well spent, I think it would GREATLY HELP their cause if they were more transparent about what they are working on and where the money is going. I also completely understand if someone disagrees with NJ2AS and wants to start their own group - all the power to them, I may even join both - but I don't understand some peoples desire to bash or tear down NJ2AS weather you agree with them or not. Wether you dislike Frank or NJ2AS or not, the more pro-gun groups we NJ gun owners have in our corner the better.

[maintenanceguy 510]

The group definitely needs to work on their communications with members.  If anything is happening, it's not relayed to the group, unless you frequent their Facebook page and I know most members do not.

[intercooler 41]

facebook = control.

[mipafox 438]

Millisan 1 said: NJ2AS suggested to members we become candidates.  I took the bull by the horns and did so.  Whenever I asked for guidance or help in the process, I received little to none.  I was told to go through the motions, figure it out, share my experiences and give them a report, so the next batch of candidates could have success.  This was my first inkling that the board did not make plans, that they got ideas and went forward.

 

So if Millsan was encourage to run for a political office by the NJ2AS why wouldn't he expect some guidance along the way. Shane, your post seems to be the same issue people have with Frank. Kinda ballsy to comment like that to a fellow member who is trying his best in the 2A fight and taking a suggestion that NJ2AS shared with him to run for political office. Just my opinion but this doesn't seem like a good way to get and/or keep members. Also sounds like you are encouraging people to reach for the brass rings while you guys are busting their balls because they reach them without a stool.

That's the way I have done it.

 

NJ2AS is a fledgling organization with a number of people doing the best they can (some representing here) and a few people pulling the heavy load. It's not Carl Rove, an organization of paid political consultants, and $40 million dollars.

 

Sounds to me like they were completely honest about it. Stumble through it, try to learn, you'll probably mess up but you can educate the next generation. That's brutally honest. It's also the way every damn thing gets started.

 

There's a lot of complaints in this thread that sound really valid, but that one is pretty damn lame.

 

I guess I should have assumed that gaining RKBA in NJ would be as simple as one guy handing me a coloring book and staying within the lines. Boom! CCW. Or, perhaps, connect the dots.

[brocglock23 4]

That's the way I have done it.

 

NJ2AS is a fledgling organization with a number of people doing the best they can (some representing here) and a few people pulling the heavy load. It's not Carl Rove, an organization of paid political consultants, and $40 million dollars.

 

Sounds to me like they were completely honest about it. Stumble through it, try to learn, you'll probably mess up but you can educate the next generation. That's brutally honest. It's also the way every damn thing gets started.

 

There's a lot of complaints in this thread that sound really valid, but that one is pretty damn lame.

 

I guess I should have assumed that gaining RKBA in NJ would be as simple as one guy handing me a coloring book and staying within the lines. Boom! CCW. Or, perhaps, connect the dots.

I can understand what you are saying regarding the power the NJ2AS has. But to belittle an individual trying to help the cause is not productive to said cause. We will have to disagree on this one.

[mipafox 438]

I can understand what you are saying regarding the power the NJ2AS has. But to belittle an individual trying to help the cause is not productive to said cause. We will have to disagree on this one.

No, you have to agree that you stop putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

[brocglock23 4]

No, you have to agree that you stop putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

That's the way your comment came off to me. Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. My bad. I still disagree with you.

[lunker 274]

Just got this e-mail from the "banned" Facebook group. I don't know anymore than you do:

 

WOW !!!! Latest news is that no less then 4 to 5 members of the " Leadership Team" have resigned within the last hour. They developed and put forward a very well thought out proposal to stop the losses, get back on track and still have Frank in a participatory role. Apparently Frank still refuses to accept any level of responsibility, blames it all on snapping due to being overworked and under helped, see's no need for him to step aside and, since there were no official bylaws in place, there really was no mechanism available to force the change. So, in light of the news today of the deluge of Anti Gun laws poised for the NJ Legislature this session , many even worse then those proposed last year, the Leader of the " Premier GrassRoots Org in the State has seen fit to put his ego ahead of the needs and RIGHTS of the membership of his club and the Citizens of the State of NJ

 

 

[matty 810]

Pretty obvious now to me---the NJ2AS 'bashers' or from whoever set up this alleged facebook anti- NJ2AS page are in league with the Cryans, Weinbergs and Fulops of the state. They have joined the Enemy.

[lunker 274]

Pretty obvious now to me---the NJ2AS 'bashers' or from whoever set up this alleged facebook anti- NJ2AS page are in league with the Cryans, Weinbergs and Fulops of the state. They have joined the Enemy.

Matt, I know you're not a Facebook guy so you can't go check for yourself, but I have to disagree.