Stores that require an FID to handle a gun?

[boo 6]

Can people PM me with stores that require an FID to handle a gun, citing state law? If you have the name of the owner, it would be even better. I spoke with the BATFE and NJSP to confirm that there's no such law, and I'm working with Frank to get letters out to those FFLs to 1) educate them and 2)encourage them to stop the practice.

 

Edited to remove store names. In no way do I want to be seen as bashing them.

 

Edited again: 

 

To clarify, this project is my idea and I am doing all of the work without the use of NJ2AS resources, other than advice and guidance. In any event, this definitely takes a back seat to dealing with the new slew of anti-gun legislation.

[ogfarmer 138]

its not law, but many stores have their own policies.

[Heavyopp 167]

How about Dicks? -- I doubt you'll change their mind regardless of the law

[Steve_G 34]

I have never had a store say it was law, store policy at many lgs.

[boo 6]

I can understand if it's just a matter of store policy, it's their business and they're of course free to run it as they see fit. But I have a feeling this store policy is the result of a misunderstanding of state law. I encountered a number of stores while waiting for my FID where the person behind the counter had no problem spending time with me and would have gladly shown me a gun except for their understanding that state law prohibited it. Not only is practice an inconvenience to FID holders that don't want to risk losing it by carrying it everywhere, but I think it discourages new gun owners and reinforces a "taboo" perception of guns. If anything is going to change in NJ it's going to be from increased gun ownership. While I don't have any control over making the process "easier", I want to help make firearms more approachable by the general public.

 

I was visiting California in December and wandered into an LGS and asked about a rifle. I wasn't really interested in holding it, bu the guy behind the counter practically forced it into hand without my even asking! While I have no illusion that it's going to change the gun landscape in NJ overight, I think that kind of attitude among gun stores might help make a subtle shift towards increased gun ownership.  

 

And as far as Dicks, while I'd at least like to try and send them a letter, I'm not going to hold my breath on them.

[SgtToadette 59]

I think it's a policy designed to ensure that only people who can buy a gun at that time can handle a gun. Purely a business driven policy, granted a dumb one because it alienates potential customers unnecessarily.

[mikka1 2]

I think it's a policy designed to ensure that only people who can buy a gun at that time can handle a gun. Purely a business driven policy, granted a dumb one because it alienates potential customers unnecessarily.

 

I actually came to several gun stores and told a person at the counter upfront that I was NOT going to buy any firearms that day, because ... (my permits are not ready, OGAM has not passed, I'm without a car that day etc). This has never caused any troubles and everyone was always very helpful. I even remember telling a guy at HG Easton that I would be unable to buy handguns in PA anyway - this hasn't stopped him from a nice chat with me and showing me (and giving to handle) some of the handguns.

People is key IMO.

I suppose it is quite clear - say NO to handling firearms by a person today, he will NOT come back when he decides to buy. No surprises here, I think.

[ogfarmer 138]

I also think that it helps shops distinguish who eligible to buy and whose wasting their time while others are waiting.

 

 

 

I know a few shops that have their own store policies and will share with you via PM rather than post their names here because I don't want it to be misconstrued as if I was bashing them, because many read these forums.

[PK90 3,469]

boo,

How about also addressing the issue about having a DL and FPID matching. There is no such law. In fact, the NJSP FIU will tell you that. The FPID does not become invalid if you move.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

[boo 6]

I also think that it helps shops distinguish who eligible to buy and whose wasting their time while others are waiting.

 

 

 

I know a few shops that have their own store policies and will share with you via PM rather than post their names here because I don't want it to be misconstrued as if I was bashing them, because many read these forums.

 

All I can do is ask. Also, I followed your lead on removing store names. I also don't want to be seen as bashing them. In fact, I'm going to be picking up an M&P Shield from one of them shortly!

 

boo, How about also addressing the issue about having a DL and FPID matching. There is no such law. In fact, the NJSP FIU will tell you that. The FPID does not become invalid if you move. Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

This might call for another an entire LGS communcation piece on addressing common misperceptions. Something to keep in mind, thanks.

[SgtToadette 59]

I actually came to several gun stores and told a person at the counter upfront that I was NOT going to buy any firearms that day, because ... (my permits are not ready, OGAM has not passed, I'm without a car that day etc). This has never caused any troubles and everyone was always very helpful. I even remember telling a guy at HG Easton that I would be unable to buy handguns in PA anyway - this hasn't stopped him from a nice chat with me and showing me (and giving to handle) some of the handguns.

People is key IMO.

I suppose it is quite clear - say NO to handling firearms by a person today, he will NOT come back when he decides to buy. No surprises here, I think.

 

I agree. That's the difference between a good shop and a bad shop. If I don't feel welcome simply being in the store, I'm sure as hell not going to feel welcome giving them more than a few Benjamins at any point in the future.

[Krdshrk 3,332]

Stores can have their own policies - It's not going to change a thing.

[mikka1 2]

Just an idea that was in the air for me for quite some time (but I am not sure you will have either willingness or ability to try to change anything) - everyone knows that many online stores don't sell random stuff to NJ residents. Good stores explain this (or at least try to explain) by vague legislative practices in restrictive states and at least are more or less open for a dialogue (remember recent example of a topic raised by remixer on AimSurplus and attempts to help them to obtain some clarification from NJ officials). Nonetheless there are stores out there that just outright lie on their websites. The most recent example I ran into was Gander Mountain. If you try to look up any handgun caliber ammo, you'll get the following warning:

 

Local and/or state laws prohibit the shipment of handgun ammunition to AK, CT, DC, HI, MA, NJ, Chicago IL, Cincinnati OH, Los Angeles CA, Oakland CA, and San Francisco CA.

 

IANAL, but as far as I know it's pure and unprecedented lie that can potentially confuse people and make them think that all other stores shipping ammo to NJ are breaking the law which in fact is not true!!! Again, I don't work at the AG office, but to the best of my knowledge, unlike some other localities mentioned, NJ simply DOES NOT have a law / regulation or whatever they could call it either on state or any local level that would prohibit online stores to ship ammo to NJ.

I would be much more comfortable seeing a warning: "According to our policy we do not ship to NJ" instead of lying to people and referring to some unicorn laws.

 

On the other hand, this would most likely not change anything anyway, as Krdshrk correctly mentioned...

[RUTGERS95 835]

boo, How about also addressing the issue about having a DL and FPID matching. There is no such law. In fact, the NJSP FIU will tell you that. The FPID does not become invalid if you move. Sent from an undisclosed location.

I did not know this actually......thanks for posting this

[Sell682 1]

I am one that believes it should be policy to present an FiD card, because I want to ensure those fondling guns can purchase them.

[boo 6]

In that case, a flimsy yellow piece of cardboard really isn't sufficient proof to establish eligibility. Maybe it should be an endorsement on your drivers license that needs to be renewed every few years. And while we're at it, FTF long gun transactions should require an FFL transfer so a NICS can be run. Maybe you should write to your state senator about that...

 

Again, my point is not to tell NJ FFLs how to run their business. If they choose to implement polices that are contrary to those of all the other states, then it's their business and they can do as they wish. I understand the practice has been going for some time, and they aren't going to be receptive to change just like that. My target are the FFLs that are bending over backwards to comply with non-existent laws, and the letter will include contacts at the NJSP and BATF where they can confirm for themselves. If the FFLs tell me to go f- myself and mind my own business, then so be it. I just know that the frustration is still fresh in my mind, and I've rewarded FFLs that didn't have the policy with repeat business (RTSP especially comes to mind). I realize this isn't the preeminent issue facing gun owners in NJ, but I can't do anything about P2P delays or CCW, so I'm just trying to do what little contribution I can.

[HBecwithFn7 287]

In that case, a flimsy yellow piece of cardboard really isn't sufficient proof to establish eligibility. Maybe it should be an endorsement on your drivers license that needs to be renewed every few years.

 

The drivers license (or State ID) is *the* premiere form of ID for just about *everything* these days. I believe it has even surpassed the "US Passport" for that purpose. Almost everyone seeks it as a form of ID.

 

Point being, I wouldn't want some of the people "seeking it" to know (via "endorsement") that I'm a firearms owner.  Employers, banks, professional agencies that offer "certification credentials" (i.e. when you show up to take the credential exam),  lots of entities. I'd prefer the separate FID. That way, only those who "need to know," can know. And, if the process weren't so onerous (i.e. bureaucracy of PDs), I'd be OK with renewing them every 4 or so years, just like the drivers license.

[Respect2A 0]

I am one that believes it should be policy to present an FiD card, because I want to ensure those fondling guns can purchase them.

Yes because nobody ever shops and even buys a firearm while they are waiting up to 6 months for their FID card and permits...

 

Let me add that in your scenario they couldn't handle an unloaded firearm under the eye of an employee without their FID card but could then move 5 steps to the right and be handed a pistol or two and ammo then go into the rental range and fire off a few hundred rounds unsupervised.

 

FID card and Permits are for purchasing. Not for handling. Purchasing means actually being transferred the firearm.

 

Do everyone a favor and don't ever open a gun store in NJ with that type of thinking.

[ogfarmer 138]

The drivers license (or State ID) is *the* premiere form of ID for just about *everything* these days. I believe it has even surpassed the "US Passport" for that purpose. Almost everyone seeks it as a form of ID.

 

Point being, I wouldn't want some of the people "seeking it" to know (via "endorsement") that I'm a firearms owner.  Employers, banks, professional agencies that offer "certification credentials" (i.e. when you show up to take the credential exam),  lots of entities. I'd prefer the separate FID. That way, only those who "need to know," can know. And, if the process weren't so onerous (i.e. bureaucracy of PDs), I'd be OK with renewing them every 4 or so years, just like the drivers license.

Hes referring to Sweenys bill in sarcasm

[HBecwithFn7 287]

Hes referring to Sweenys bill in sarcasm

 

I'm not sure if that's better or worse....

[maintenanceguy 442]

Can people PM me with stores that require an FID to handle a gun, citing state law? If you have the name of the owner, it would be even better. I spoke with the BATFE and NJSP to confirm that there's no such law, and I'm working with Frank to get letters out to those FFLs to 1) educate them and 2)encourage them to stop the practice.

 

Edited to remove store names. In no way do I want to be seen as bashing them.

Frank from NJ2AS?  Is Frank working back with you?  This would be a ridiculous project for NJ2AS to take on.  Private businesses can do whatever they want in their own stores.   With NJ2AS' limited resources, I hope they really aren't putting any into this.   Say it ain't so.

[boo 6]

Really? I'm absolutely stunned. I fully understand if you aren't inspired to lift me up on your shoulders and parade me down the street, but I definitely wasn't expecting the hostility to the idea. I know the "businesses can do what they want" line isn't the real concern. Is it the potential for longer lines? I can't think of any other issue that an otherwise pro-2A person would have with the idea. Or is it just that you had to wait X number of months before being able to touch a gun at an LGS, then so should everyone else? I genuinely don't get it. 

 

If the project bothers you so much, why don't you push for some "common-sense" legislation specifically restricting non-FID holders from handling guns. I'm sure you could approach MDA or some other organization and they'd happily take up that cause. 

[maintenanceguy 442]

This is not a 2A issue.  The second amendment prevents the GOVERNMENT from infringing on gun rights.  Private citizens and private businesses can make whatever rules they want for themselves.  I don't think it's a good policy to require a FID to touch a gun, In fact, I've never been to any gun shop in my entire life that ever required that.  Must be a North Jersey thing.   But I'd much rather see my dues go toward electing pro 2A candidates, fighting for CCW, suing cities that put up hurdles to getting an FID, and lots of other things that actually are second amendment issues.

 

I'm not upset with you for thinking it's a dumb store policy.  I agree with you.  It's just that with all the real 2A violations in NJ, I just hope my dues aren't going to be spent chasing this.

[boo 6]

Ok, I think I understand the concern now. To clarify, when I say I'm working with Frank, the extent of his involvement is advice and guidance as exchanged in a few e-mails. I conceived the project on my own, am doing all of the work on my own, and NJ2AS resources are not going into this. I agree that NJ2AS has bigger fish to fry, and I'm just trying to do what little I can to try and create more gun-friendly climate in this f-ing state.

[KpdPipes 388]

Just an idea that was in the air for me for quite some time (but I am not sure you will have either willingness or ability to try to change anything) - everyone knows that many online stores don't sell random stuff to NJ residents. Good stores explain this (or at least try to explain) by vague legislative practices in restrictive states and at least are more or less open for a dialogue (remember recent example of a topic raised by remixer on AimSurplus and attempts to help them to obtain some clarification from NJ officials). Nonetheless there are stores out there that just outright lie on their websites. The most recent example I ran into was Gander Mountain. If you try to look up any handgun caliber ammo, you'll get the following warning:

 

Local and/or state laws prohibit the shipment of handgun ammunition to AK, CT, DC, HI, MA, NJ, Chicago IL, Cincinnati OH, Los Angeles CA, Oakland CA, and San Francisco CA.

 

IANAL, but as far as I know it's pure and unprecedented lie that can potentially confuse people and make them think that all other stores shipping ammo to NJ are breaking the law which in fact is not true!!! Again, I don't work at the AG office, but to the best of my knowledge, unlike some other localities mentioned, NJ simply DOES NOT have a law / regulation or whatever they could call it either on state or any local level that would prohibit online stores to ship ammo to NJ.

I would be much more comfortable seeing a warning: "According to our policy we do not ship to NJ" instead of lying to people and referring to some unicorn laws.

 

On the other hand, this would most likely not change anything anyway, as Krdshrk correctly mentioned...

MIkka..in Gander Mtn's case, they are in the process of getting their NJ Dealers paperwork in order for opening their Raritan store I believe later on this year.  The can't sell handgun ammo via mail order to NJ residents if they hold NJ Licenses.  Cabelas was the same before Xanadu imploded.

[n4p226r 105]

There's a store in north jersey that requires FPID. Wouldn't even let my buddy (a LEO carrying at the time) fondle the stuff. Said it was state law, a huge fine if they get caught, and spot checks happen.

[PK90 3,469]

So your friend the LEO, did he call them out on it?

[magnawing 5]

I know a shop in Flemington that would not even remove a handgun from the display case for me to look at without a FPIC & P2P.  Guy pretty much blew me off on every question I asked with the exception of one.  I asked what they charge for handling a handgun transfer and was told $75 + NICS...I won't be shopping there anymore.

[Scrappy 0]

Silver Bullet required my FID before letting me see a handgun.

[n4p226r 105]

So your friend the LEO, did he call them out on it?

No. I'm not sure if he didn't know the exact law or didn't care enough. Funny thing was he went home and ordered a gun from another place instead