Glock or M&P

[Vlad G 345]

Oh lord, I've stepped in religion. Sorry, carry on, there is only one true gun and its name is Glock. 

 

From where I sit, I've seen multiple Glocks explode, fail, and generally not work. When I say I've seen them, I mean I have seen them explode a couple of feet away from me. Do I think Glocks are bad? Hell no, but their legendary reliability is somewhat overblown. 

 

Oh well. 

[raz-0 1,259]

When I say "comforting vs comfortable" I am referring more to the folks who chose what they CC based of how comfortable it is to carry vs how effective (ie: comforting) it is. The folks that carry a .25/.32/.380 because is slips in a pocket, is small, is light, and is "comfortable" without thinking about how effective their choice wil be if they ever actually need it. Folks that complain a G19 is "too heavy" or that concealing a full size gun is too hard even though the instant the skin it, they will wish they had a little more gun in their hands.

 

I agree that there are enough reliable options out there that finding one that fits you the most comfortably, while not a mandatory characteristic, is certainly a viable criteria after reliability and accuracy.

 

Hey, this is a glock vs. the world holy war. DOn't try to bring your caliber holy war into it. It has no place here. There's already somewhere aorund infinity threads in all of gun forumdom to necro post if you need that fix.

 

The gun that's with you is better than the one that isn't. I can't fault a person for being honest with themselves when they slecct something easier to carry because they know they will leave something more effective at home. 

 

As for glocks. They break too. Everything does. The reality is that for the modern handgun, the limiting factor after magazine feed lips are the springs. Glock isn't fielding magic springs. In glock vs. M&P, the one thing I will give glock as a general overall advantage is that their nitriding process is done on mild steel, which imparts very good corrosion resistance to the slide. The M&P will require maintenance of the slide when in close contact with sweaty skin that the glock won't.  Glock isn't free of QC defects, it isn't magic, it isn't immune from wear and tear. 

 

MY $0.02 is that you should buy something that uses good materials, and has spare parts readily available. IMO both the M&P and glocks meet that requirement. 

[High Exposure 5,664]

I am a Glock Guy. I carry Glocks daily, I oversee the .40 S&W Glocks (22s and 27s with some 23s and a 35 or two thrown in as off duty pieces) issued at my agency as an Armorer and Firearms instructor. I also see other flavors of Glocks when overseeing firearms training with our county SWAT team - guys are issued Glocks in 9mm, .357Sig, and .45ACP. As well as HK, Sig, and S&W M&Ps. When asked, I recommend Glock to both new and experienced shooters alike.

 

That said, I agree with Vlad G's statement above. I have seen enough issues with Glocks to know that "Glock Perfection" is a load of horse crap. The issues they have had with the 4th gen 9mm guns, the known issues with the .40 and WML, the 9mm issues they had in the early 90's, and to top the list - their reluctance to admit it, instead uttering the standard company response of "you are limp wristing/using weak ammo". Bullshit. Why do 10 guns run and 5 not, if I am shooting all of them myself with same lot of full power duty ammo (Gold Dots or HST)?

 

I have also experienced Glocks that continue to run with broken RSAs and broken trigger springs, chipped/broken strikers, broken trigger blocks. A friend at a neighboring agency had one G22 that had over 20k documented rounds without cleaning or maintenance. That gun continues to run with a combination of issues - broken striker, a trigger housing that looked melted, broken trigger spring, & a broken locking block pin. This was all discovered when it was decided to finally clean the gun - it was a range gun that never saw duty or carry use.

 

Glocks are good guns, and I prefer them as they are just as reliable as anything out there and more reliable than most, and I shoot them better than the others - but they are no better than HK, S&W M&P, FNs, or older Sigs (pre Cohen). They all seem to have the same failure rate. When you start comparing them to Taurus, new Sigs, Hi-Points, most boutique guns, 1911s with users that don't know how to maintain them, then there is a huge gap in reliability with Glock (and HKs and M&Ps etc...) rising head and shoulders above the others.

 

As long as you buy quality guns and have realistic expectations of what you are carrying and know that anything manufactured by man can and will fail, you won't be disappointed by you favorite blaster.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Hey, this is a glock vs. the world holy war. DOn't try to bring your caliber holy war into it. It has no place here. There's already somewhere aorund infinity threads in all of gun forumdom to necro post if you need that fix.

 

The gun that's with you is better than the one that isn't. I can't fault a person for being honest with themselves when they slecct something easier to carry because they know they will leave something more effective at home.

 

As for glocks. They break too. Everything does. The reality is that for the modern handgun, the limiting factor after magazine feed lips are the springs. Glock isn't fielding magic springs. In glock vs. M&P, the one thing I will give glock as a general overall advantage is that their nitriding process is done on mild steel, which imparts very good corrosion resistance to the slide. The M&P will require maintenance of the slide when in close contact with sweaty skin that the glock won't. Glock isn't free of QC defects, it isn't magic, it isn't immune from wear and tear.

 

MY $0.02 is that you should buy something that uses good materials, and has spare parts readily available. IMO both the M&P and glocks meet that requirement.

 

LOL! I know I know....

 

While caliber plays a role, it isn't the heart of my argument. It's the guys that shoot IDPA/IPSC with an open class gun then carry a LCP or even a PM9 thinking they will burn down bad guys like they are cardboard A-zones. The folks that train religiously with a full size gun, be it a Glock, HK, Sig, etc... in a drop holster then stuff a Beretta .25 or J frame in their pocket and think they are in invincible.

 

Personally, I believe that sometimes the gun you have is worse than no gun if either you or it isn't up to the task at hand. Jeff Gonzales (Trident concepts) just wrote an excellent article about this very topic in the latest (March 2014) issue of SWAT Magazine.

 

Again, just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.

[anabolism 2]

Another vote for glock. Have shot both and while the M&P is a good gun, i trust my safety on and off duty to glock. No matter what you go with, you owe it to yourself to train with it as much as possible

[GRIZ 3,369]

Oh lord, I've stepped in religion. Sorry, carry on, there is only one true gun and its name is Glock. 

 

From where I sit, I've seen multiple Glocks explode, fail, and generally not work. When I say I've seen them, I mean I have seen them explode a couple of feet away from me. Do I think Glocks are bad? Hell no, but their legendary reliability is somewhat overblown. 

 

Oh well.

 

Not a religion. My experience is different. I never said all the rest were junk. Right now I'm carrying a S&W and a Walther. Undoubtedly if others could stand up to the torture testsGlocks have survived I'm sure someone would have published them.

 

I have seen plenty of S&W K & J frames explode in my time. These were under controlled circumstances where the gun's functioning had been checked and the ammo was known. I still would carry one though.

 

Exactly what were the circumstances when you saw a Glock explode? Not saying it didn't happen just would like to know the circumstances.

[Vlad G 345]

 

Exactly what were the circumstances when you saw a Glock explode? Not saying it didn't happen just would like to know the circumstances.

 

Overcharged ammo. When people shoot and reload 10-20k rounds a year, they eventually f'up. I've seen a number of double charges over the years in all sorts of guns, and Glocks fail the worst. In most platforms the mag gets destroyed, the slide might get bent, the barrel may crack, but most of the boom is contained.  In some cases, there is not even any visible permanent damage to main components. In the glock explosions I've seen the slide peels open, the chamber/barrel flower out.

 

Even when you have an case let go on the unsupported portion the damage tends to be larger then you might expect.

 

Basically they fail in more fantastic ways then most when over pressured. 

 

Additionally, this mostly happens with .40S&W.  Mind you, I'm not saying this is the fault of the gun. You feed it stupid crap, stupid stuff happens. But compared with other guns it definitely fails worse. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a weak designed but I'd say it is not as overbuilt as other designs. I think this is a side effect of a gun built for 9mm which was adapted to shoot 40, where most other designs were built from the word go to do both.

[70gto 142]

I agree with high exposure, as the LEO instructor/Glock armorer for my old dept 135 guys and police academy firearms instructor, my experience ha shown me that the Glock platform is more forgiving,  runs dry, dirty and damaged if need be. I certainly can appreciate and respect a great deal of other makers but between the two I am biased towards this.  M&P is also a nice gun, try each if you can, its your gun , its your preference.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Overcharged ammo. When people shoot and reload 10-20k rounds a year, they eventually f'up. I've seen a number of double charges over the years in all sorts of guns, and Glocks fail the worst. In most platforms the mag gets destroyed, the slide might get bent, the barrel may crack, but most of the boom is contained.  In some cases, there is not even any visible permanent damage to main components. In the glock explosions I've seen the slide peels open, the chamber/barrel flower out.

 

Even when you have an case let go on the unsupported portion the damage tends to be larger then you might expect.

 

Basically they fail in more fantastic ways then most when over pressured. 

 

Additionally, this mostly happens with .40S&W.  Mind you, I'm not saying this is the fault of the gun. You feed it stupid crap, stupid stuff happens. But compared with other guns it definitely fails worse. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a weak designed but I'd say it is not as overbuilt as other designs. I think this is a side effect of a gun built for 9mm which was adapted to shoot 40, where most other designs were built from the word go to do both.

 

I've been reloading for over 40 years.  Many of those years I've loaded 10K a year and at least a few of them maybe not quite but close to 20K.  I've never had a squib or blown up a gun with an overcharge with one of my loads.  I've never blown up a primer feed.  The worst accident I've had is pop off a couple of primers when I pressed too hard on a hand priming tool.  I just can't dismiss an overcharge with "it's just bound to happen".  True, with some things,  there are those that have had it happen and those that it is going to happen to but powder charges in reloads isn't one of them.  That's a topic for another thread.

 

The problem with comparing what this overcharged load did to this gun and what that overcharged load did to that gun is this and that.  What pressure was this round producing vs what pressure that round producing. Then we would have to see what one sample of that overcharged cartridge would do to different guns.

 

The CIP standard for pistols, accepted in most of Europe, calls for two 30% overpressure rounds followed by a standard round.  Due to differences there is no direct comparing of CIP and SAAMI standards.

 

True there are more Glocks than other makes that have kaboomed due to sloppy reloading practices but there is a reason for this.  There are more Glocks out there.  Last I saw, 65% of LE agencies in the US use Glocks.  This naturally produces a strong following among civilian shooters.

 

I'm not saying you didn't see what you saw but there isn't enough info to draw a scientific conclusion.

 

Now for the third time I ask where are those torture tests of S&Ws, SIGs, H&Ks, and all the rest?  A glock may not fare that well when you load it with ridiculously overcharged ammo but it sure can take a lot of abuse when you run it on what it was designed for.       

[Vlad G 345]

Sorry, I disagree.

 

First, because you haven't had a double charge, that is also statistically irrelevant. I haven't had one either, yet watching hundreds of USPSA shooters of 12 years, quite a few have. I'd like to say they are rubbish at reloading but I don't because one day it may get me too.

 

Secondly, there aren't more Glocks then everything else in USPSA. They do fail worse then other things. Note I'm not saying the fail more, because it is never the gun that fails, it is the shooter reloading his ammo, its just that when they do fail they do so more dramatically. I do honestly think that in .40 the Glock platform is weaker then most when exposed to stupid pressures.

 

And lastly, and probably my punching out of this thread, I don't know why you are stuck on torture tests. To me it is almost like Glock owners try to justify their choice by saying "Look I drag my gun behind my car and throw it from a plane!". Err .. ok. I think the rest of companies and gun are more interested in producing and using firearms instead of improbable tests. Most people who aren't glock fans don't seem to be nearly as impressed with the torture tests.  I'll say this, I abuse my guns far more then most gun owners do and the number one thing I damage on my guns are sights. Now about those glock plastic sights ....

[vladtepes 1,060]

Sorry, I disagree.

 

First, because you haven't had a double charge, that is also statistically irrelevant. I haven't had one either, yet watching hundreds of USPSA shooters of 12 years, quite a few have. I'd like to say they are rubbish at reloading but I don't because one day it may get me too.

 

Secondly, there aren't more Glocks then everything else in USPSA. They do fail worse then other things. Note I'm not saying the fail more, because it is never the gun that fails, it is the shooter reloading his ammo, its just that when they do fail they do so more dramatically. I do honestly think that in .40 the Glock platform is weaker then most when exposed to stupid pressures.

 

And lastly, and probably my punching out of this thread, I don't know why you are stuck on torture tests. To me it is almost like Glock owners try to justify their choice by saying "Look I drag my gun behind my car and throw it from a plane!". Err .. ok. I think the rest of companies and gun are more interested in producing and using firearms instead of improbable tests. Most people who aren't glock fans don't seem to be nearly as impressed with the torture tests.  I'll say this, I abuse my guns far more then most gun owners do and the number one thing I damage on my guns are sights. Now about those glock plastic sights ....

 

I am not sure you abuse your guns more than I do.. I am not sure the last time I cleaned my Glock... and I bounced it across the asphalt.. I had a stupid moment and there it went... sights didn't budge..  sure they could have.. but they didn't...

 

the reason I like the torture test is because it shows function in the most absurd ridiculous extreme... and if a gun can be thrown out of a plane.. buried in salt.. and dirt.. shot at with another gun.. and still function it speaks volumes to the guns ability to keep functioning under harsher conditions than I as an owner will ever apply to the gun...

 

for me a gun is a simply tool.. I am not some elite operator.. not some comp shooter... not even a collector.. I own guns to accomplish the simple task of self defense... sure I like to shoot but the primary concern is self defense.. thus requirement number one is reliability..  You have seen tons of Glocks break? sure.. I am sure they have... all guns break.. people make shit reloads.. or other things happen.. but at the end of the day for whatever reason if you load the gun with the correct ammo.. and run the gun hard.. failure is relatively low IMO.. not because some guy on the interwebs says so.. but because I really mistreat my guns.. I reload 40.. I shoot the shit out of the gun.. I dropped it on the ground.. I rarely (if ever) clean it... and it has proven to be dead reliable range session after range session...  would other guns do that? who knows.. maybe.. but for me the Glock HAS done that.. so I have no need to look further.. 

 

most non Glock owners are not interested in the tests because they would never dump their $2000 1911 in a vat of salt.. or bury their $800 HK in sand... so the notion of doing so is totally abstract to them...

but even with the idea being beyond your scope.. how can you discount a tool that can take such an extraordinary amount of abuse and still function.. forget the whole Glock fanboy shit.. and just take it at face value.. ANY tool that can be abused to that level and continue to function is impressive.. 

[Golf battery 1,223]

I was at the range last week and had my glock 22. My friend had his mp9. I tried about 40 rds. Straight shooter. It seemed a little loose compared to the glock. But it was good. Of the two glock seemed more natural. Especially at distance. 15 yds. Also as mr tepes wrote. Ive never had any failures and reloading mags are fast for me. I prefer it over beretta m9 for idpa. Havent done one yet but im practicing for it. Im more accurate on the glock 40 cal than the m9.

[pjd832 146]

 most non Glock owners are not interested in the tests because they would never dump their $2000 1911 in a vat of salt.. or bury their $800 HK in sand... so the notion of doing so is totally abstract to them...

but even with the idea being beyond your scope.. how can you discount a tool that can take such an extraordinary amount of abuse and still function.. forget the whole Glock fanboy shit.. and just take it at face value.. ANY tool that can be abused to that level and continue to function is impressive..

 

very good post.....the reason most find it abstract is they don't look at firearms as tools more like poodles and purses dressing them with foo foo bling bling to out ninja their friends...and the #1 negative thing I hear about glock is "they are ugly"....that in itself pretty much sums up the mentality/mindset of the person making that statement.....lol

[big five 1]

I just found out that rstp has a mp9 and g17 for rent. But the glock is a gen 3 insread of a gen 4.. how much different is the recoil on the gen 4.... is it a big enough difference that I should compare the mp to a gen 4

 

 

 

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Malice4you 627]

Not sure about for a 9mm, but I've heard that the .40 Gen4 Glocks have a different, less harsh recoil compared to Gen3.  I've only owned/shot Gen4 Glock .40s (My G23, friends G22), but the recoil spring assembly of the Gen4s leads me to believe it.  I'm confident that the 9mm will have some improvement in a Gen4 as well.  FWIW, I want a Glock 20, and I'm only considering a Gen4 for that same reason...

 

I'm sure if you ask and pay the (I believe) $10 extra for a second shooter at RTSP, someone would offer to let you shoot their gen4 17...worth a try?

[High Exposure 5,664]

In my experience, the is no discernable difference in recoil characteristics between 3rd and 4th Gen Glocks, regardless of the "updated" Recoil spring assembly.

 

Recoils is a subjective quality though, and everyone experiences it differently, so YMMV.

 

Personally - you can either drive the gun or you can't. A new RSA is not going to change that.

[Vlad G 345]

Recoil is a odd thing. The laws of thermodynamics says it has to go somewhere and that somewhere is you unless you change the ammo, compensate the barrel, or significantly change the masses involved.  As non of those things changed, the quantity of recoil doesn't change, but the quality of it can change, ie: the rate, the direction, etc. I think for most people the difference will be hard to tell. 

[diamondd817 827]

Glock.

[pjd832 146]

Personally - you can either drive the gun or you can't. A new RSA is not going to change that.

So wait all the fancy aftermarket guide rods of various metals don't make a .22 lr out of a glock 29 and are just marketing hype?.....damn....lol

[High Exposure 5,664]

So wait all the fancy aftermarket guide rods of various metals don't make a .22 lr out of a glock 29 and are just marketing hype?.....damn....lol

Shhhh, that is secret it the universe #152. Don't tell everyone or Cheaper Than Dirt, Lone Wolf, Mako, and CAA will all go bankrupt